Joint ownership of a track day car
Discussion
I co-own a Juno that was £30k with a guy I've known for 23 years and it's no problem at all. But we have the correct attitude to doing it. All bills are split 50/50, tracked in a spreadsheet, and if it breaks, we mend it (and it has). If the car needs money spending on it, we spend it. You *have* to have this attitude for it to work.
Problems will occur if, for example, one of you has a significant other who will question every payment and cause friction whenever things are required doing on the car. Especially the big ones. Another problem is if you end up doing all the work on the car and just going to them for the money, them just arrive and driving. You've all got to be equally invested in the car not just driving, but maintenance and running.
Thankfully this does not apply to us. We are both exceptionally realistic on how we do things with the car. You have to be. So be very, very sure how you're going to do it and be in no doubt that your partners (both in the car and your SO) are 100% about how it's going to be run.
Problems will occur if, for example, one of you has a significant other who will question every payment and cause friction whenever things are required doing on the car. Especially the big ones. Another problem is if you end up doing all the work on the car and just going to them for the money, them just arrive and driving. You've all got to be equally invested in the car not just driving, but maintenance and running.
Thankfully this does not apply to us. We are both exceptionally realistic on how we do things with the car. You have to be. So be very, very sure how you're going to do it and be in no doubt that your partners (both in the car and your SO) are 100% about how it's going to be run.
Edited by juansolo on Thursday 25th April 09:29
BIRMA said:
Thinking more along the lines of a Lotus 2-11 or KTM
Everything on track takes stick and when things inevitably break/wear out on the Lotus/KTM, it's going to result in big bills.For track days there really isn't anything better in terms of all-round entertainment than a Caterham. It flatters the inexperienced and rewards the experienced. You want to drive like a loon, it will, want to go fast and smooth, it does that too. Coupled to that, the running costs are a low as you can possibly get on a track car and ease of maintenance is excellent. In 14 years of doing track days, I've not come across anything better suited to the job in hand.
You also do not need an R500, an R300/400 is more than enough car to motor around a track in. If you want to make it more entertaining/challenging put little wheels on it rather than get a bigger engine.
juansolo said:
Everything on track takes stick and when things inevitably break/wear out on the Lotus/KTM, it's going to result in big bills.
For track days there really isn't anything better in terms of all-round entertainment than a Caterham. It flatters the inexperienced and rewards the experienced. You want to drive like a loon, it will, want to go fast and smooth, it does that too. Coupled to that, the running costs are a low as you can possibly get on a track car and ease of maintenance is excellent. In 14 years of doing track days, I've not come across anything better suited to the job in hand.
You also do not need an R500, an R300/400 is more than enough car to motor around a track in. If you want to make it more entertaining/challenging put little wheels on it rather than get a bigger engine.
I fear you may have just wasted your time typing a response (i know i am - but i don't mind For track days there really isn't anything better in terms of all-round entertainment than a Caterham. It flatters the inexperienced and rewards the experienced. You want to drive like a loon, it will, want to go fast and smooth, it does that too. Coupled to that, the running costs are a low as you can possibly get on a track car and ease of maintenance is excellent. In 14 years of doing track days, I've not come across anything better suited to the job in hand.
You also do not need an R500, an R300/400 is more than enough car to motor around a track in. If you want to make it more entertaining/challenging put little wheels on it rather than get a bigger engine.
)he was seeking approval, not advise
the first 25-30 responses urged caution, citing a number of very valid reasons and previous experience, then one person agrees with him and BANG, 'yep, i'm doing it, getting a 2-11 etc etc'
just so long as he posts a picture of the car when he gets it, we'll forgive him, lol...
Surely Melindi it depends whose wife one is sharing!
Our arrangement does work but I totally acknowledge that there is a huge potential for it all ending in tears. For us, it's a diversion from very busy lives. It's also enormous fun, and when it stops being fun, we'll all buy GT3's and be all serious and focussed. (I'm kidding!)
Whilst you need to be friends in my view, it's also not worth losing a friend over. Those who have met us or shared a garage with us on various track days will attest to the fact that we laugh a lot. I even laughed when they were poking me with pointy sticks for crashing it, but that may have been the bump on my head.
If I were you OP I'd try hiring one of Johnny's track toys between you for a few track days and see how you get on sharing on the day, and then factor in travel, maintenance and storage. That might give you a batter idea or indeed encouragement based on my posts. Having read what I've just typed, sharing sounds like a right old pain in the butt.
And never will you hear more old b
ks talked than in a garage where people share. I am quite proud of the fact that I can describe in detail a lap of Brands Indy that is about 15 seconds quicker than I can drive it, oh yes.
Our arrangement does work but I totally acknowledge that there is a huge potential for it all ending in tears. For us, it's a diversion from very busy lives. It's also enormous fun, and when it stops being fun, we'll all buy GT3's and be all serious and focussed. (I'm kidding!)
Whilst you need to be friends in my view, it's also not worth losing a friend over. Those who have met us or shared a garage with us on various track days will attest to the fact that we laugh a lot. I even laughed when they were poking me with pointy sticks for crashing it, but that may have been the bump on my head.
If I were you OP I'd try hiring one of Johnny's track toys between you for a few track days and see how you get on sharing on the day, and then factor in travel, maintenance and storage. That might give you a batter idea or indeed encouragement based on my posts. Having read what I've just typed, sharing sounds like a right old pain in the butt.
And never will you hear more old b
ks talked than in a garage where people share. I am quite proud of the fact that I can describe in detail a lap of Brands Indy that is about 15 seconds quicker than I can drive it, oh yes. 
In my original post I was really asking the opinion of people who had actually done this sort of thing. All opinions have been noted and I would like to thank all those who have replied, but I was looking for a reply from someone who had actually entered into this type of arrangement and had made a success of it. I also wanted to know if anyone has had an expensive bad experience of this type of arrangement and if so by posting the facts on here I can ensure that I can take whatever action or course to prevent it happening with us and ruining a 30 year friendship.
I don't really need advice about cars as the two cars we have short listed are easier on tyres and the like than many, and I can assure you I have asked about these cars from guys who run them on track days.
Such issues like the opinion or influence of other halves won't really come into the reckoning so don't let's go down that road.
I don't really need advice about cars as the two cars we have short listed are easier on tyres and the like than many, and I can assure you I have asked about these cars from guys who run them on track days.
Such issues like the opinion or influence of other halves won't really come into the reckoning so don't let's go down that road.
em177 said:
I crashed a mates track car once, spent the next week taking tyres to the garage to get them fitted (as couldn't carry more than a couple at the time in the Mx5) to the wheels after the gravel trap had had its effect on them and lodged stones in between the rim. Think I bought him a pint as well (that bit may be a lie, I can't remember). And all this was the day before his wedding.
He wasn't too pissed off, much. His dad (the passenger as we flew off the track) thought it was hilarious!
That was a £700 car not 30 grand worth mind. Then the outcome may have been different.
Cock!He wasn't too pissed off, much. His dad (the passenger as we flew off the track) thought it was hilarious!
That was a £700 car not 30 grand worth mind. Then the outcome may have been different.
Edited by em177 on Wednesday 24th April 17:47
I currently share a road/track use Caterham with Harry Flashman on here (coming up to 1 year in). Car owes us c.£15k, all told.
We've been friends and driven each other's cars for years, we're both pretty risk-averse and sensible with money, and he's tracked a few of my previous cars (again sharing trackday/wear and tear costs).
All told, because neither of us have a great deal of time/holiday to take, we'll do 4-5 trackdays a year, plus limited road mileage in nice weather. The arrangement works really well, the car's always insured on track, Caterham running costs are sensible, and all upgrades (we've done a few) have been by agreement and split down the middle. No major arguments (yet) - I say go for it.
ETA - We have nothing in writing, and the car's registered in my name, but we have a paper trail of payments etc. Obviously you need to be able to trust each other.
We've been friends and driven each other's cars for years, we're both pretty risk-averse and sensible with money, and he's tracked a few of my previous cars (again sharing trackday/wear and tear costs).
All told, because neither of us have a great deal of time/holiday to take, we'll do 4-5 trackdays a year, plus limited road mileage in nice weather. The arrangement works really well, the car's always insured on track, Caterham running costs are sensible, and all upgrades (we've done a few) have been by agreement and split down the middle. No major arguments (yet) - I say go for it.
ETA - We have nothing in writing, and the car's registered in my name, but we have a paper trail of payments etc. Obviously you need to be able to trust each other.
Edited by _Neal_ on Thursday 25th April 17:24
BIRMA said:
In my original post I was really asking the opinion of people who had actually done this sort of thing. All opinions have been noted and I would like to thank all those who have replied, but I was looking for a reply from someone who had actually entered into this type of arrangement and had made a success of it. I also wanted to know if anyone has had an expensive bad experience of this type of arrangement and if so by posting the facts on here I can ensure that I can take whatever action or course to prevent it happening with us and ruining a 30 year friendship.
I don't really need advice about cars as the two cars we have short listed are easier on tyres and the like than many, and I can assure you I have asked about these cars from guys who run them on track days.
Such issues like the opinion or influence of other halves won't really come into the reckoning so don't let's go down that road.
Fair enough. Just don't enter into it lightly and make sure everyone in the arrangement has the same expectations. I know of all my friends, the guy I co-own my car with is the only one I could enter into this sort of arrangement with and it not end it tears. Purely because we both have exactly the same attitude to the thing. With anyone else it'd be a very fast way to end a friendship. It is that perilous a thing you're contemplating. I don't really need advice about cars as the two cars we have short listed are easier on tyres and the like than many, and I can assure you I have asked about these cars from guys who run them on track days.
Such issues like the opinion or influence of other halves won't really come into the reckoning so don't let's go down that road.
As for the Elise/KTM, whatever floats your collective boats. Just offering advice based on experience, that's all.
BIRMA said:
In my original post I was really asking the opinion of people who had actually done this sort of thing. All opinions have been noted and I would like to thank all those who have replied, but I was looking for a reply from someone who had actually entered into this type of arrangement and had made a success of it. I also wanted to know if anyone has had an expensive bad experience of this type of arrangement and if so by posting the facts on here I can ensure that I can take whatever action or course to prevent it happening with us and ruining a 30 year friendship.
I don't really need advice about cars as the two cars we have short listed are easier on tyres and the like than many, and I can assure you I have asked about these cars from guys who run them on track days.
Such issues like the opinion or influence of other halves won't really come into the reckoning so don't let's go down that road.
I have done it. I shared a car with a mate of mine. It was back in the day when airfield days were all the rage and you could get away with driving a little bit more exuberantly than you can today. He had an Impreza for proper trackdays and I had an Elise. We bought a Capri 2.8i between us. It worked because a) the car was a shed so neither of us was precious about breaking it and b) he had all the mechanical knowhow and "ownership" of the car, I chipped in half the costs and was able to source stuff like spare wheels and tyres.I don't really need advice about cars as the two cars we have short listed are easier on tyres and the like than many, and I can assure you I have asked about these cars from guys who run them on track days.
Such issues like the opinion or influence of other halves won't really come into the reckoning so don't let's go down that road.
One of the best years of fun track action I've ever enjoyed. Everyone loves a Capri going sideways with a stupid idiot grinning at the wheel.
However, I'm still not sure this will answer your question, as you are looking at quite high value track toys. I don't think I would be comfortable sharing something at that end of the scale.
If you're determined to go down this route, then at least get an agreement about what happens in the following situations - all of which have happened to clients I know and have caused disputes, at least one of which has ended a 30+ year friendship between a guy and the best man at his wedding!
1) Condition. Car is crashed, but not badly enough to warrant a repair (cosmetic, doesnt' affect the use of the car, only residual value). Are you all comfortable for the car to look tatty, or is the driver expected to pay ££whatever it costs to get it looking A1 again?
2) Downtime. Car is damaged and someone has already paid up for another track day. Who covers the cost of this potentially lost track time? Is it split 3 ways or just the person who crashed the car? Equally, if the car is damaged on the first session of the day, do the other 2 drivers forfeit their costs for that day or does the crasher pick up the bill for the lot on that occasion?
3) Driver-specific mechanical failures. For example, a driver who induces significant understeer can shred a set of front tyres very quickly due to bad driving. Similarly a driver who's all over the kerbs at every opportunity can cause tyre or even suspension damage. I would be unhappy paying for new wishbones when I personally don't use the kerbs.
4) Exit strategy. I know of more than one client who has an "unwanted" share in a car that he can't get out of for whatever reason. Make sure you have an agreement in place as to what happens when of you has had enough. Bear in mind residual value is unknown at this point.
5) Who does the work? One of you may have a mate Brian who can do the servicing and repairs cheap. You may want to give Brian the work as he's a bit slack at the moment but the other 2 think Brian is an incompetent idiot.
6) What happens when one of you can't make the event and the other 2 can? Does the absent 3rd party still pick up a third of all transport/servicing/repair bills even though they've missed out on a chunk of track time?
Hope this helps
Jonny
BaT
1) Condition. Car is crashed, but not badly enough to warrant a repair (cosmetic, doesnt' affect the use of the car, only residual value). Are you all comfortable for the car to look tatty, or is the driver expected to pay ££whatever it costs to get it looking A1 again?
2) Downtime. Car is damaged and someone has already paid up for another track day. Who covers the cost of this potentially lost track time? Is it split 3 ways or just the person who crashed the car? Equally, if the car is damaged on the first session of the day, do the other 2 drivers forfeit their costs for that day or does the crasher pick up the bill for the lot on that occasion?
3) Driver-specific mechanical failures. For example, a driver who induces significant understeer can shred a set of front tyres very quickly due to bad driving. Similarly a driver who's all over the kerbs at every opportunity can cause tyre or even suspension damage. I would be unhappy paying for new wishbones when I personally don't use the kerbs.
4) Exit strategy. I know of more than one client who has an "unwanted" share in a car that he can't get out of for whatever reason. Make sure you have an agreement in place as to what happens when of you has had enough. Bear in mind residual value is unknown at this point.
5) Who does the work? One of you may have a mate Brian who can do the servicing and repairs cheap. You may want to give Brian the work as he's a bit slack at the moment but the other 2 think Brian is an incompetent idiot.
6) What happens when one of you can't make the event and the other 2 can? Does the absent 3rd party still pick up a third of all transport/servicing/repair bills even though they've missed out on a chunk of track time?
Hope this helps
Jonny
BaT
The other guys 'don't do Pistonheads' so I am really relaying all the answers to this thread to them. It has been very helpful and we need to sit down sometime and go through the pros and cons. I don't think it's worth going to the extent of getting a solictor to draw up the contract as that is sure to raise hackles all round and bound to be the start of problems. But if a spirit of co-operation and understanding can be arrived at from the start I'm sure we can all enjoy ourselves. Like I have said a fair bit of money will go into this venture and I'm thinking of maybe nominating myself as general dogs-body as I have more free time than the other two and may land up being the soul owner if either party decide to jump ship.
Some very salient points from Jonny.
A slightly left field idea, but have a gander around the General Aviation forums such as www.flyer.co.uk (flyer magazine). A lot of GA aircraft are operated by groups (where "group" means >1 person) and there are a heck of a lot of parallels between a bunch of people owning and operating a trackday car and a bunch of people owning and operating a GA aircraft - the difference being that it's been going on a long time in the GA world and all the templates for agreements, problems, solutions, gotchas, FAQs etc. have been done to death a bazillion times.
A slightly left field idea, but have a gander around the General Aviation forums such as www.flyer.co.uk (flyer magazine). A lot of GA aircraft are operated by groups (where "group" means >1 person) and there are a heck of a lot of parallels between a bunch of people owning and operating a trackday car and a bunch of people owning and operating a GA aircraft - the difference being that it's been going on a long time in the GA world and all the templates for agreements, problems, solutions, gotchas, FAQs etc. have been done to death a bazillion times.
"Soul" owner suggests James Brown at the wheel - great image
But seriously sit down with your mates and sign a piece of paper setting out what you all agree - it may not address everything and it will not contain legal jargon but it will at least evidence some of your expectations and if one of you decides at a later point that something more detailed would be worthwhile you have a heads of terms to base a more formal agreement upon and if you don't then you have something to evidence what you had in mind often worst happens
Exit terms would be a minimum to address but Jonny's list isn't a bad list to discuss over a beer
When "disputes" are your business I guess you become far more sensitive to how they can arise - a trip to a lawyer might seem overkill but do at least record the core of your understanding in everyday language
But seriously sit down with your mates and sign a piece of paper setting out what you all agree - it may not address everything and it will not contain legal jargon but it will at least evidence some of your expectations and if one of you decides at a later point that something more detailed would be worthwhile you have a heads of terms to base a more formal agreement upon and if you don't then you have something to evidence what you had in mind often worst happens
Exit terms would be a minimum to address but Jonny's list isn't a bad list to discuss over a beer
When "disputes" are your business I guess you become far more sensitive to how they can arise - a trip to a lawyer might seem overkill but do at least record the core of your understanding in everyday language
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