Claim from a track day
Discussion
MaxFromage said:
No disagreement with what you've said, but I've seen plenty of track day incidents where B follows A. If B is close to the edge, A's accident could easily take B past it. How many times do you see it in high-level racing, let alone amateurs...
Indeed, surely the counter argument is that the second car would not have spun if the first car hadn't, thus requiring the second driver to lift and lose control. Doubly so if it was a novice trackday and the second driver could not be expected to be proficient and handling sudden lift off oversteer.One assumes the court has more of the facts than we do.
Neither MSV nor any other Relevant Person shall be liable for any loss, damage, claims, costs, expenses, injury or demands suffered directly or indirectly by
me as a consequence of my attendance at or participation in this Activity provided that nothing in this form shall exclude any Relevant Person’s liability for
personal injury or death caused by its negligence. I shall reimburse MSV and other Relevant Persons against any loss or liability suffered by them as a result
of my error, default, act or omission.
I shall reimburse MSV and other Relevant Persons against any loss or liability suffered by them as a result
of my error, default, act or omission.
Has been sneaked in - imvho. Basically if I make a mistake I am liable for it. No more MSV for me.
me as a consequence of my attendance at or participation in this Activity provided that nothing in this form shall exclude any Relevant Person’s liability for
personal injury or death caused by its negligence. I shall reimburse MSV and other Relevant Persons against any loss or liability suffered by them as a result
of my error, default, act or omission.
I shall reimburse MSV and other Relevant Persons against any loss or liability suffered by them as a result
of my error, default, act or omission.
Has been sneaked in - imvho. Basically if I make a mistake I am liable for it. No more MSV for me.
Before too many keyboard warriors get on their high horse about negligence. As an experienced (10 years) ARDS instructor I'd to present an opinion having spoken to Owen and taught countless novices at snetterton.
Things to consider:
1 turn 1 at snetterton is blind until you're almost on top of it
2 2010 is before the light boards were installed. (Big 1 foot square LED boards that are remotely controlled and much better placed)
3 the Marshall's post that is manned on trackdays is a long way back from the corner and has caught out many experienced racers in the past who haven't seen the flag. The marshals post on corner entry isn't usually manned - it's the one at the end of the tyre wall on the outside of the corner that is.
4 it is likely that an inexperienced driver will be looking at the turn in cone on approach to a corner - not into the apex or limit point as a more experienced driver would - this puts the marshals post even more out of the drivers line of sight
5 on a Trackday the Marshall's post prior to turn 1 that is manned is the start line. The start line Marshall's normally share flag duties with wristband checking and it was pretty rare to see a yellow at the start line for an incident at turn 1 prior to the huge flashing light boards they have now.
With the above in mind I'd suggest that Owen would have been approaching turn 1 looking for brake and turn points. He says he didn't see the yellow flags if they were being waved and I believe him on this. I've sat beside many drivers who have completely missed flag warnings at that corner and I've had to cut in and tell them to back off. Is this negligence ? Not in my opinion - I'd call it inexperience
With the way the barrier peels back from the inside of turn 1 it doesn't surprise me that he'd have seen the car quite late and again inexperience - not negligence - caused an over reaction and he unfortunately lost control and hit the car that had spun.
This is footage from a test day a couple of weeks ago: shows a very similar situation happening - although the spin to impact time is less. Is the other driver negligent? You can see him briefly as the camera car spins and he's not out of control at that point.
Video contains the f word - turn your sound off if in public or near little ears!
http://youtu.be/W_KGsCehrGE
Things to consider:
1 turn 1 at snetterton is blind until you're almost on top of it
2 2010 is before the light boards were installed. (Big 1 foot square LED boards that are remotely controlled and much better placed)
3 the Marshall's post that is manned on trackdays is a long way back from the corner and has caught out many experienced racers in the past who haven't seen the flag. The marshals post on corner entry isn't usually manned - it's the one at the end of the tyre wall on the outside of the corner that is.
4 it is likely that an inexperienced driver will be looking at the turn in cone on approach to a corner - not into the apex or limit point as a more experienced driver would - this puts the marshals post even more out of the drivers line of sight
5 on a Trackday the Marshall's post prior to turn 1 that is manned is the start line. The start line Marshall's normally share flag duties with wristband checking and it was pretty rare to see a yellow at the start line for an incident at turn 1 prior to the huge flashing light boards they have now.
With the above in mind I'd suggest that Owen would have been approaching turn 1 looking for brake and turn points. He says he didn't see the yellow flags if they were being waved and I believe him on this. I've sat beside many drivers who have completely missed flag warnings at that corner and I've had to cut in and tell them to back off. Is this negligence ? Not in my opinion - I'd call it inexperience
With the way the barrier peels back from the inside of turn 1 it doesn't surprise me that he'd have seen the car quite late and again inexperience - not negligence - caused an over reaction and he unfortunately lost control and hit the car that had spun.
This is footage from a test day a couple of weeks ago: shows a very similar situation happening - although the spin to impact time is less. Is the other driver negligent? You can see him briefly as the camera car spins and he's not out of control at that point.
Video contains the f word - turn your sound off if in public or near little ears!
http://youtu.be/W_KGsCehrGE
Wh00sher said:
Do we ? I suspect there is a large number of people with dedicated track cars who don`t.
Indeed, I'd say those with insurance are in a significant minority.This doesn't come as a surprise to me - if you read many of the disclaimers they are a CYA form for the TDO/circuit, and those which try to cover car to car contact are usually poorly written.
After the Carrera GT incident in the states a few years ago I'm surprised its taken this long to reach these shores.
On the road if you run into somebody else, its your fault - you should have been driving with suitable care to allow for any possibility.
On the road, if you do hit someone and admit liability, you are bang to rights.
On the road, your insurers tell you never to admit liability.
Seems the judge transferred the first two to the track.
Seems we had better remember the third, however sorry we are for an unfortunate accident.
There was a MacLaren MP12 and a Ferrari California on one of my MSV track days recently, glad I didn't hit either of them.
On my last Snetterton TD a DB9 had to brake fairly smartly when I lost it on a hairpin.
Perhaps TD organisers should limit the value of cars on track days to £10,000?
Or insist on third party insurance or own risk disclaimers that actually hold water?
And then there's the damage that can occur when your car empties its sump on the track.........just at the top of the Mountain at Cadwell Park.
On the road, if you do hit someone and admit liability, you are bang to rights.
On the road, your insurers tell you never to admit liability.
Seems the judge transferred the first two to the track.
Seems we had better remember the third, however sorry we are for an unfortunate accident.
There was a MacLaren MP12 and a Ferrari California on one of my MSV track days recently, glad I didn't hit either of them.
On my last Snetterton TD a DB9 had to brake fairly smartly when I lost it on a hairpin.
Perhaps TD organisers should limit the value of cars on track days to £10,000?
Or insist on third party insurance or own risk disclaimers that actually hold water?
And then there's the damage that can occur when your car empties its sump on the track.........just at the top of the Mountain at Cadwell Park.
QBee said:
Perhaps TD organisers should limit the value of cars on track days to £10,000?
My concern here is that the courts might have to power to over ride any disclaimer/document they get drivers to sign.QBee said:
Or insist on third party insurance or own risk disclaimers that actually hold water?
Wonder just how much that would cost...
Racingben said:
Video contains the f word - turn your sound off if in public or near little ears!
http://youtu.be/W_KGsCehrGE
...and with feeling!http://youtu.be/W_KGsCehrGE
Elliott_3R said:
This is unbelievable.
Elliott_3R said:
Never lift
I'd like to see some more on this, but you're really not going to help your mate with comments like this. Track day rules are different to test day rules. You're supposed to be in control of your vehicle. If he's hit a car under yellow flags he's not starting from a good point unless he can show that the car was recovering in an unsafe way. I don't see this as doom and gloom for the track day industry, although it is clearly a warning as to what can happen. Although quite how he did £21,000 of damage to a Caterham in a minor incident is beyond me. It only cost me £5,500 when I ran into a wall at 70mph.
Jez
agtlaw said:
Martin4x4 said:
A critical question is, was this a default undefended judgment?
No.I have often read/heard the phrase "if you never spin you're not trying hard enough". Maybe if the first driver hadn't been trying too hard the second driver wouldn't have suffered the consequences. In the light of this sobering story, I think I'll continue to not try too hard on a track day and just enjoy it.
What would it take for trackday attendees to have the same legal protection as someone in a race? Is there an existing 'anything goes' form at some stage in the licensing/ event participation/ other which could be applied?
Edit for clarity
Edit for clarity
Edited by newestie on Friday 20th September 06:44
Elliott_3R said:
Jez - from my perspective it is unbelievable. Having done hundreds of track days I didn't even consider this could happen. And secondly, although meant in a light hearted way, lift off oversteer was the cause of Owen's spin. An easy mistake to make considering the circumstances.
I, like most here, don't really know the facts. I can't believe that CC TV was ignored though. Courts are not known for ignoring critical evidence. I find it very believable that negligence can be proven on a track day. Irrespective of the facts if the case. It becomes a problem for the TDO when it's a second or third offence and they haven't dealt with it, which is why they will always have a word if there is a complaint.
I don't think this is a good development. But I still can't reconcile a small crash with £21k. Even with legal fees. Said small crash should have been a few hundred quid. Maybe a grand for a rad, nosecone, corner. If he's then hired lawyers etc to defend himself (and anyone who goes to court without a lawyer is a fool) then the right decision was to settle up front. Ask Mark Hales.
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