Claim from a track day

[QBee]

agtlaw said:

QBee said:

But Javelin have updated the form we all sign to make it abundantly clear that we take part at our own risk and cannot sue each other.

When did you first see that "form"?

The track day was 16th November. I was emailed it a few days earlier.

Edited by QBee on Monday 25th November 18:31

[agtlaw]

QBee said:

The track day was 16th November. I was emailed it a few days earlier.

Edited by QBee on Monday 25th November 18:31

A bit late in the day! Javelin should address this urgently. The disclaimer must be incorporated into the contract.

[QBee]

I booked online with Track Days.co,uk , who are an agent.
I have just looked again on their website, no mention of these terms even on the terms and conditions page.
I checked the Javelin form when it arrived to make sure the new terms were on there.

[Rgm racer]

iguana said:

No way you can know the circumstance to say that, yes the chap could be a loon & the overtake was waay out of order, however he could also have just seen the Op pull over for a large group & thought great the slowcoach is letting us all past, gone for the pass & he hadn't spotted him & closed the door.

I've been both sides of passes like that, impossible to say from the OPs post which it was.


Is a vid I'll try & find later me & another member on here, both experienced fellas at a place we know well & we pass a chap with a quite big speed diferential & all seems fine on the vid & we both pass fine & dandy no issues lots of room, however I chatted to the guy we passed later, with similar colour cars he just hadn't spotted the 2nd car at all & was going to move over for the line, it could have been nasty.


Here is another example, that actually didn't end too well, 2 cameras overlaid in the same vid, novice in slow car- main vid & experienced guy in fast one in the inset vid. The rules were over take on the left only.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05Aq0___M74

Are very different views on fault here, some folks are 100% one party or the other, clearly the novice didn't spot the fast car approach, & also clear the fast car thought the door was being left wide open, right up until it wasnt....

Radical driver unquestionably at fault.
Whilst you should always check your mirrors the onus is still with the driver overtaking to do so safely and this is particularly relevant in the case with the closing speed that would have been involved. The driver did exactly what he should have and remained on his usual line and should have hopefully just got out of the way on the next straight [not that he would have needed to]
I have had the same situation where a much better handling car/race car assumes incorrectly you are leaving the door open when in fact you are just taking the corner in the usual way for a lesser handling car. I always move over on a straight asap for other cars and hope people will do the same for me but when you have an average driver in a average road car being caught by a radical on slicks with a decent driver the closing speed often means everything happens within a couple of seconds and so as I say ultimately the onus has to be on the overtaker to do so safely.

[mrdemon]

GreigM said:

No. While there are rules about where and when to overtake, this doesn't explicitly give the car in front a "right of way" or excuse to arbitrarily place their car in the path of another. There is still a duty of care on both cars to avoid incidents - the car could have been coming up your inside for a number of reasons - mechanical failure, misunderstanding that you were going slow enough to allow the pass or simply bad driving, but in any case doesn't absolve the car in front of looking around and not putting their car in harms way.

The way to deal with a bad overtaker is to report them to the TDO, not cause an avoidable incident because the other driver was misbehaving.

so wrong over taking is by consent only I would be livid at the Mx5 owner.
I have been stuck behind cars for 2 laps as I WILL NOT over take a car until they have said it's ok.
But like wise I always know what's behind me and what's going on as you get a few hero's.

Edited by mrdemon on Monday 25th November 21:30

[schrodinger]

mrdemon said:

GreigM said:

No. While there are rules about where and when to overtake, this doesn't explicitly give the car in front a "right of way" or excuse to arbitrarily place their car in the path of another. There is still a duty of care on both cars to avoid incidents - the car could have been coming up your inside for a number of reasons - mechanical failure, misunderstanding that you were going slow enough to allow the pass or simply bad driving, but in any case doesn't absolve the car in front of looking around and not putting their car in harms way.

The way to deal with a bad overtaker is to report them to the TDO, not cause an avoidable incident because the other driver was misbehaving.

so wrong over taking is by consent only I would be livid at the Mx5 owner.
I have been stuck behind cars for 2 laps as I WILL NOT over take a car until they have said it's ok.
But like wise I always know what's behind me and what's going on as you get a few hero's.

Edited by mrdemon on Monday 25th November 21:30

Disagree.

If you are clearly driving at 50% of the normal pace, and sticking to the outside, you are obviously on a cooling down lap and heading back to the pits. In those circumstances, to come across not he racing line is just daft, and not what is expected at all (unless on a novice day or in a novice session). Ideally in those circumstances you'd be indicating all around the track, but even if not, then if you're touring in you must expect that other drivers will assume you are staying off the line.

[Steve H]

schrodinger said:

(unless on a novice day or in a novice session).

Most TDOs will ask in the briefing how many people are first timers to trackdays or to that circuit; unless absolutely nobody puts their hand up, every open pitlane is a novice session.

[Herman Toothrot]

schrodinger said:

Disagree.

Ideally in those circumstances you'd be indicating all around the track, but even if not, then if you're touring in you must expect that other drivers will assume you are staying off the line.

If someone is crawling along for whatever reason, cool down or broken car if they didn't stick the indicators or hazards if broken and maybe about to stop altogether and didn't keep to the side I'd say they are a moron and need talking too as they obviously don't give a st about everyone else still out on track going at speed.

[Sonic]

Herman Toothrot said:

schrodinger said:

Disagree.

Ideally in those circumstances you'd be indicating all around the track, but even if not, then if you're touring in you must expect that other drivers will assume you are staying off the line.

If someone is crawling along for whatever reason, cool down or broken car if they didn't stick the indicators or hazards if broken and maybe about to stop altogether and didn't keep to the side I'd say they are a moron and need talking too as they obviously don't give a st about everyone else still out on track going at speed.

Just to clarify, i was lapping at normal pace immediately before the corner and had in-fact overtaken the MX5 5 corners earlier.

10 seconds before i turned into the corner in question i had a boost issue, so i backed off and then took the corner. I was not cruising around on a cool-down lap slowing everyone else down blocking the track and it had barely registered there might be a serious issue with the car.

As such i took a normal smooth line around the corner not expecting somebody behind me to dive down the inside for the apex, and then pulled over to the right with my indicator on for the rest of the lap.

[FurtiveFreddy]

It's natural to put your own interpretation of 'who's to blame' with on-track incidents after seeing them on YouTube.

Onboard cameras won't show what each driver actually saw at the time because of the perspective, angle of the lens, position of the camera etc. etc. so apportioning blame and guessing what caused each driver to do what they did at the time of the incident is not straightforward.

There is one simple rule which would prevent a lot of these incidents from happening though. If you are about to turn in to a corner, whether it's a tight, slow corner or a fast, sweeping corner like the one with the Golf/Radical, you need to look in your mirrors first. If the Golf driver had done that and saw the Radical approaching, that incident could have been avoided and it's better to avoid collisions than have to argue about who's to blame afterwards.

Driving on track is a risk. If you don't want to take risks which might involve losing large sums of money it's best not to take your own car on a track day. Whether you can or can't sue the other party makes little difference, because you'll probably end up having to spend money you didn't expect to either way.

[motorhole]

FurtiveFreddy said:

There is one simple rule which would prevent a lot of these incidents from happening though. If you are about to turn in to a corner, whether it's a tight, slow corner or a fast, sweeping corner like the one with the Golf/Radical, you need to look in your mirrors first. If the Golf driver had done that and saw the Radical approaching, that incident could have been avoided and it's better to avoid collisions than have to argue about who's to blame afterwards.

Whilst this is true, the driver in front always has to actively look in his mirror to see an approaching car. Something may prevent him from doing this - maybe nerves due to inexperience, maybe a light has just lit up on his dash telling him something is wrong.

The car approaching from behind can ALWAYS see the car in front and is therefore always in a better position to make a judgement on best course of action. This is why safe overtaking in a non-competitive environment will always lie with the overtaker. The person with the best view of both the situation and of relative speeds. Simple, passive safety.

I'm not saying the car in front can be absolved of all blame - weaving around, obstinantly ignoring mirrors etc are all dangerous. But the person behind ALWAYS has the option to wait for consent and/or a safe opportunity to overtake. Not doing so is just impatience. It's not a race.

[FurtiveFreddy]

motorhole said:

Whilst this is true, the driver in front always has to actively look in his mirror to see an approaching car. Something may prevent him from doing this - maybe nerves due to inexperience, maybe a light has just lit up on his dash telling him something is wrong.

The car approaching from behind can ALWAYS see the car in front and is therefore always in a better position to make a judgement on best course of action. This is why safe overtaking in a non-competitive environment will always lie with the overtaker. The person with the best view of both the situation and of relative speeds. Simple, passive safety.

I'm not saying the car in front can be absolved of all blame - weaving around, obstinantly ignoring mirrors etc are all dangerous. But the person behind ALWAYS has the option to wait for consent and/or a safe opportunity to overtake. Not doing so is just impatience. It's not a race.

I agree, mostly, but I'd say there should be equal responsibility to avoid these situations. As others have said, it isn't realistic in every case to have to wait behind a slower car until you get an indication they have seen you and are moving over or holding their line. At some point an overtaking driver will be alongside another car and if the other driver does something unexpected it can end in tears, but the blame can't always lie with the overtaker. Sometimes it will, but the responsibility is 50/50 to try and ensure it doesn't happen.

I'd say this is especially true at the 'Ring, where anyone deciding to drive there should have done enough research to understand that speed and skill differentials can be huge, so good observation and concentration are vital if you want to avoid incidents. If a driver is nervous about traffic or needs to spend more time looking out the front than at the mirror in order to learn the circuit, how about getting the passenger to use the mirrors and warn about any impending doom? When instructing on circuit, this is almost always what we do and it almost always prevents unexpected and dangerous situations like the Golf one from occurring.

Edited by FurtiveFreddy on Tuesday 26th November 12:57

[jonnyleroux]

For me personally when I'm out on track, it's less about right & wrong in these situations as it is about self-preservation. Yes, I could march into Helmand with a US flag singing the star-spangled-banner and would have the law on my side if I were to get gunned down but I find it easier not to put myself in situations where I am at risk in the first place.

Turning in on someone you didn't know was there who "shouldn't have been there" may give you the moral high-ground, but as I said before, it doesn't help you pay the repair bill.

Jonny
BaT

[Wh00sher]

FurtiveFreddy said:

If you are about to turn in to a corner, whether it's a tight, slow corner or a fast, sweeping corner like the one with the Golf/Radical, you need to look in your mirrors first. If the Golf driver had done that and saw the Radical approaching, that incident could have been avoided

My understanding is it wasn`t the sunniest of days, the Radical didn`t have lights on and it was a pretty dark coloured one. Not the easiest thing to spot with a quick glance in the mirror.

Which also helps prove,as already said, you can`t judge an accident like that JUST from the videos, there are other things that need to be considered

[QBee]

My first rule on a track day - know what's behind you at all times

[g40steve]

QBee said:

My first rule on a track day - know what's behind you at all times

I consider everyone else to have no ability that way nothing supprises me.

I just wish noobs would get a novice badge so we can all see the mobile chicane.

Screaming down Craners to find a noob crawling round the hairpin keeps the heart pumping.

[QBee]

The other consideration is the relative performance of the cars. And their performance relative to their appearance.
Many a track Peugeot or BMW actually has 250+ bhp. Nothing to tell you which ones.
Caterhams can be anywhere from 200 bhp per tonne to 500
Basic Porsches aren't all that fast, and all look the same when behind you, but some models are stonkingly fast.

I had a great duel with an MGF on my last track day. I was told later that it was a race car. Until then I was simply surprised that it kept right up with me except on the straights. But then why would I expect a 150 bhp MGF to be as quick as my 300 bhp TVR?

Watch your mirrors when on track

[_Neal_]

g40steve said:

I just wish noobs would get a novice badge so we can all see the mobile chicane.

Screaming down Craners to find a noob crawling round the hairpin keeps the heart pumping.

Not sure that's a great attitude - everyone's got to start somewhere.

ETA - I think most trackday organisers offer novice stickers, which is a good idea.

Edited by _Neal_ on Tuesday 26th November 17:54

[Herman Toothrot]

g40steve said:

I just wish noobs would get a novice badge so we can all see the mobile chicane.

I just wish it was compulsory for all newbies to have at 20 mins tuition on their 1st track day with any company, it would instantly speed them up and make them more aware of how they should be behaving. I've let a few people who have never been on track before drive my car on track, the caveat being before going on your own you are going with an instructor, they have all said they were really thankful I made them go out with an instructor 1st as they learned loads and felt much safer. Why the majority of people don't get instruction when trying something new and instead living in their own little world hoping they are doing it right is beyond me.

[Tonsko]

Herman Toothrot said:

I just wish it was compulsory for all newbies to have at 20 mins tuition on their 1st track day with any company, it would instantly speed them up and make them more aware of how they should be behaving. I've let a few people who have never been on track before drive my car on track, the caveat being before going on your own you are going with an instructor, they have all said they were really thankful I made them go out with an instructor 1st as they learned loads and felt much safer. Why the majority of people don't get instruction when trying something new and instead living in their own little world hoping they are doing it right is beyond me.

Do not all TDOs offer that? The one I've been with (twice now) offers you a free lesson with a track instructor. Very handy. That and I probably won't remove the noob sticker until I've done loads.