Claim from a track day
Discussion
Tonsko said:
Do not all TDOs offer that? The one I've been with (twice now) offers you a free lesson with a track instructor. Very handy. That and I probably won't remove the noob sticker until I've done loads.
I think more or less all offer tuition and encourage it but they all charge i think, usually £20+/-£5 for 20mins. I'd have said 1st track day you should have no option but to pay a £20 suppliment and you get a lesson. To be honest even those of us who are regulars if we should happen to use a new company would probably benefit from an enforced lesson now and again.It's over taking by consent FFS
It's pretty black and white.
The car behind "DOES NOT" over take till the car in front has said it's ok.
cooling down lap or not, it's not a hard issue to grasp.
and it's not the novice's who have the issue half the time, it's the guys with fast cars who think no one is coming past whatever !!! but then you just do a drive though the pits and let them get on with it.
I have had novices pull over to the full left by mistake in a panic and forget the rules, I guess they treat it like a public motorway and in the panic pull left.
So ONLY over take by consent, it is 100% clear cut.
It's pretty black and white.
The car behind "DOES NOT" over take till the car in front has said it's ok.
cooling down lap or not, it's not a hard issue to grasp.
and it's not the novice's who have the issue half the time, it's the guys with fast cars who think no one is coming past whatever !!! but then you just do a drive though the pits and let them get on with it.
I have had novices pull over to the full left by mistake in a panic and forget the rules, I guess they treat it like a public motorway and in the panic pull left.
So ONLY over take by consent, it is 100% clear cut.
schrodinger said:
Disagree.
If you are clearly driving at 50% of the normal pace, and sticking to the outside, you are obviously on a cooling down lap and heading back to the pits. In those circumstances, to come across not he racing line is just daft, and not what is expected at all (unless on a novice day or in a novice session). Ideally in those circumstances you'd be indicating all around the track, but even if not, then if you're touring in you must expect that other drivers will assume you are staying off the line.
It's a track day, just hold on for the next straight and over take when the car in front has noticed you.If you are clearly driving at 50% of the normal pace, and sticking to the outside, you are obviously on a cooling down lap and heading back to the pits. In those circumstances, to come across not he racing line is just daft, and not what is expected at all (unless on a novice day or in a novice session). Ideally in those circumstances you'd be indicating all around the track, but even if not, then if you're touring in you must expect that other drivers will assume you are staying off the line.
you might be on a warming up lap and be ready to give it some, not a cooling down lap !!!!
my warming up lap is a lot slower than my fast laps due to running a semi slick and not a road tyre, it can take a good lap oe 2 to get up to temp and offer me the grip esp on a winter track day.
most tracks you can keep right on your cooling down lap, but the pit can be on the left so you WILL have to cross over.
again just over take by consent, they are the rules at most track day.
Not sure why people are disagreeing !!!!
Interesting debate, and as someone said, it's clear, that to all, it's not clear....
If I reflect on my own day and some of the points raised -
Did I get a lesson ? - Too damn right I did, but you know what it wasn't scheduled in till lunchtime
Would I have worn a sticker ? If offered, many of them !
Did I look in my mirrors ? - I was obsessed with the things, as I was paranoid about wasting people's time & hacking people off
Was I told to let people past on the straight ? Yep, and I did for all the time I was on the circuit
I have no experience to draw on with regard to track days, but when I ski there is a simple rule, the guy down the mountain has right of way, and you should always moderate your speed to accommodate a safe passing move on the guy closet to bottom of the hill.
I guess most posters have indicated thus.
Either way, I think I am unsure I will repeat my track day, which is a pity cause post my lesson I really started to enjoy it and maybe I even got faster
If I reflect on my own day and some of the points raised -
Did I get a lesson ? - Too damn right I did, but you know what it wasn't scheduled in till lunchtime
Would I have worn a sticker ? If offered, many of them !
Did I look in my mirrors ? - I was obsessed with the things, as I was paranoid about wasting people's time & hacking people off
Was I told to let people past on the straight ? Yep, and I did for all the time I was on the circuit
I have no experience to draw on with regard to track days, but when I ski there is a simple rule, the guy down the mountain has right of way, and you should always moderate your speed to accommodate a safe passing move on the guy closet to bottom of the hill.
I guess most posters have indicated thus.
Either way, I think I am unsure I will repeat my track day, which is a pity cause post my lesson I really started to enjoy it and maybe I even got faster
g40steve said:
I consider everyone else to have no ability that way nothing supprises me.
I just wish noobs would get a novice badge so we can all see the mobile chicane.
Screaming down Craners to find a noob crawling round the hairpin keeps the heart pumping.
Not the best example, you have a clear view down the Craners and you ought to be able to see the novice and judge their speed long before you catch them at Old Hairpin.I just wish noobs would get a novice badge so we can all see the mobile chicane.
Screaming down Craners to find a noob crawling round the hairpin keeps the heart pumping.
In fact, there aren't many places on UK circuits where a little forward vision could prevent a faster car approaching the rear of a slower one at speed - if you learn to plan well in advance, you can time it so you're approaching the rear of the slower car just after the exit to the corner and use the differential in speed to pass them quickly and safely (it's often the way I pass more powerful machinery when racing, using the strengths of the car through the corners to gain a much higher exit speed to get past on the straights before the Mitsobaru's dustbin lid turbo has had chance to spool up).
I do agree though that novice stickers would be of benefit - at least we'd be fully aware that the driver of the car may have a lot going on and take appropriate action to make ourselves seen more easily.
Mark Benson said:
I do agree though that novice stickers would be of benefit - at least we'd be fully aware that the driver of the car may have a lot going on and take appropriate action to make ourselves seen more easily.
Having seen some of the posts on the last few pages I think "I've done loads of track days, don't listen in the briefing, make up my own rules and expect you to guess what they are" stickers might be more use.AdiT said:
Mark Benson said:
I do agree though that novice stickers would be of benefit - at least we'd be fully aware that the driver of the car may have a lot going on and take appropriate action to make ourselves seen more easily.
Having seen some of the posts on the last few pages I think "I've done loads of track days, don't listen in the briefing, make up my own rules and expect you to guess what they are" stickers might be more use.
Resists urge to tar all drivers of certain cars with the same brush
Mark Benson said:
Not the best example, you have a clear view down the Craners and you ought to be able to see the novice and judge their speed long before you catch them at Old Hairpin.
In fact, there aren't many places on UK circuits where a little forward vision could prevent a faster car approaching the rear of a slower one at speed - if you learn to plan well in advance, you can time it so you're approaching the rear of the slower car just after the exit to the corner and use the differential in speed to pass them quickly and safely (it's often the way I pass more powerful machinery when racing, using the strengths of the car through the corners to gain a much higher exit speed to get past on the straights before the Mitsobaru's dustbin lid turbo has had chance to spool up).
I do agree though that novice stickers would be of benefit - at least we'd be fully aware that the driver of the car may have a lot going on and take appropriate action to make ourselves seen more easily.
I think this is an important point.In fact, there aren't many places on UK circuits where a little forward vision could prevent a faster car approaching the rear of a slower one at speed - if you learn to plan well in advance, you can time it so you're approaching the rear of the slower car just after the exit to the corner and use the differential in speed to pass them quickly and safely (it's often the way I pass more powerful machinery when racing, using the strengths of the car through the corners to gain a much higher exit speed to get past on the straights before the Mitsobaru's dustbin lid turbo has had chance to spool up).
I do agree though that novice stickers would be of benefit - at least we'd be fully aware that the driver of the car may have a lot going on and take appropriate action to make ourselves seen more easily.
Firstly though I think the advent, relatively recently, of 'novice only' track days is a particularly positive thing and a reflection of increasing popularity of track days. I would certainly encourage anyone to start their track day experience by doing a few of those. I would also encourage people to get a circuit guide and read it, watch videos etc and have some idea about lines and so on.
Back to Marks point. The Radical v Golf incident is particularly interesting as the huge difference in closing speed is clear to see. What is also clear is that the Radical had an opportunity to see the Golf with time to make a judgement and act on it. Erroneously as it turned out. I would suggest though that the Golf driver would have been doing well to pick up that he was there, closing at warp factor 2 and planned to slip through on the left. I say that as a Radical driver on track days.
At UK or indeed Le Mans circuits we visit there is opportunity to look ahead, follow the circuit with your eyes and assess what is happening up ahead. It's not difficult even though we sit low enough to look up most exhaust pipes. What becomes clear is that our appearance in the mirrors can be a surprise, especially round the twisty bits. It is ALWAYS our responsibility to make sure it's safe to pass.
I would suggest that at the Ring driving something like a Radical, where you can carry so much more speed through a corner means that you can come across someone very swiftly indeed, without the foresight that a trad circuit allows you. In the video quoted actually count how long the Radical can see the Golf for before making a commitment. Not long, but long enough for a proper lift and pause behind the Golf.
Rules is rules and because a car is quicker gives no greater rights. The subject of this thread is a real cause for concern. Crashing on my own is expensive enough! I trust the tdo's in this and I am happy to wait for their advice and conclusions. A pause for reflection over the close season is probably a good idea.
It was an interesting video. But it does point out that we should have Ring threads and all ther track threads.
Why?
Because at the Ring the faster cars are often timing themselves and trying to beat their own and other people's times. And there are no rules about overtaking. Which gives them a different attitude to overtaking safely.
On a UK track day timing is banned, so is overtaking in bends. So that accident should never have happened on a UK track day
Why?
Because at the Ring the faster cars are often timing themselves and trying to beat their own and other people's times. And there are no rules about overtaking. Which gives them a different attitude to overtaking safely.
On a UK track day timing is banned, so is overtaking in bends. So that accident should never have happened on a UK track day
QBee said:
It was an interesting video. But it does point out that we should have Ring threads and all ther track threads.
Why?
Because at the Ring the faster cars are often timing themselves and trying to beat their own and other people's times. And there are no rules about overtaking. Which gives them a different attitude to overtaking safely.
On a UK track day timing is banned, so is overtaking in bends. So that accident should never have happened on a UK track day
The Ring is rarely a good example of anything relating to on track behavior from what I see.Why?
Because at the Ring the faster cars are often timing themselves and trying to beat their own and other people's times. And there are no rules about overtaking. Which gives them a different attitude to overtaking safely.
On a UK track day timing is banned, so is overtaking in bends. So that accident should never have happened on a UK track day
That bend is a bend in the same way that Fordwater at Goodwood is. RMA days allow overtaking on both sides at UK track days. Is it an issue? Not particularly as far as I am aware (we haven't done one for a couple of years) because there are few relative novices there. Not that there aren't track driving knobs, but people are generally much more track aware.
Manifestly though limit vision is by definition limited as evidenced by the events that triggered this thread. Lots of UK circuits have potential blind spots. That's why driving at 9/10 on a track day allows the other 1/10 to do all that other stuff other than steer and commentate inside your helmet, like looking and thinking.
QBee said:
It was an interesting video. But that accident should never have happened on a UK track day
As already pointed out It was a trackday,overtaking on this day- I was on it, were as per usual public tf rules is overtake on left only- you are no more allowed to overtake both sides on a ring tf day than a usual uk track day (rma excepted) ok more folks do but is a serious matter if you cause a crash the German fuzz will have you. iguana said:
As already pointed out It was a trackday,overtaking on this day- I was on it, were as per usual public tf rules is overtake on left only- you are no more allowed to overtake both sides on a ring tf day than a usual uk track day (rma excepted) ok more folks do but is a serious matter if you cause a crash the German fuzz will have you.
Correct - plus there are less marshals per km as it were, so you're less likely to get spotted and get a rollocking. iguana said:
QBee said:
It was an interesting video. But that accident should never have happened on a UK track day
As already pointed out It was a trackday,overtaking on this day- I was on it, were as per usual public tf rules is overtake on left only- you are no more allowed to overtake both sides on a ring tf day than a usual uk track day (rma excepted) ok more folks do but is a serious matter if you cause a crash the German fuzz will have you. mrdemon said:
It's over taking by consent FFS
It's pretty black and white.
The car behind "DOES NOT" over take till the car in front has said it's ok.
cooling down lap or not, it's not a hard issue to grasp.
and it's not the novice's who have the issue half the time, it's the guys with fast cars who think no one is coming past whatever !!! but then you just do a drive though the pits and let them get on with it.
I have had novices pull over to the full left by mistake in a panic and forget the rules, I guess they treat it like a public motorway and in the panic pull left.
So ONLY over take by consent, it is 100% clear cut.
That's all well and good but ive been on track where some drivers will not move out of the way or indicate for a overtake to take place. It's pretty black and white.
The car behind "DOES NOT" over take till the car in front has said it's ok.
cooling down lap or not, it's not a hard issue to grasp.
and it's not the novice's who have the issue half the time, it's the guys with fast cars who think no one is coming past whatever !!! but then you just do a drive though the pits and let them get on with it.
I have had novices pull over to the full left by mistake in a panic and forget the rules, I guess they treat it like a public motorway and in the panic pull left.
So ONLY over take by consent, it is 100% clear cut.
If ive just waited in pit lane for 10mins to get on track, the last place I want to be going is to the back of the queue in the pits just because an inconsiderate person will not allow faster cars to pass.
Ive been the novice on UK trackdays and at the nurburgring, I drove with a large amount of my concentration on my mirrors and got the hell out of the way when necessary.
Some people just don't want to play fair and deserve to be punted off onto the grass by a 1987 325i sport
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