Javelin track days

[red baron m3]

Qbee, finally someone who gets where I'm coming from, Bedford is great but I would opt for a silver stone day instead not a massive difference in price but guaranteed to have no sound issues and perfect for a powerful Tvr, do your cans reduce performance

[QBee]

red baron m3 said:

Qbee, finally someone who gets where I'm coming from, Bedford is great but I would opt for a silver stone day instead not a massive difference in price but guaranteed to have no sound issues and perfect for a powerful Tvr, do your cans reduce performance

I might try Donington next - closer to home for me. Last time I did a full day at Bedford I ended up having to stop three times on the way home to avoid falling asleep at the wheel. I had done a full grand prix distance on track, all at maximum attack, and combined with getting up at 5.30 to make the track by 7.45, I was knackered!

Cans and performance? I can hear that the sound is quieter and softer, but having done 50/50 last time at Snetterton (started with the cans on and realised that half the field were a helluva lot noisier than me, so took them off) I honestly could not feel any performance loss.

I used the type that clamp on and stick about a foot out the back - like in the pic on this website:

http://www.actproducts.co.uk/silencing/trackdays/

These are specifically TVR, but we just have standard tubular cylindrical exhaust pipes, so all you need to do is order the correct diameter for your pipes. I am aware that there are other manufacturers out there and that you can also get neater inserts, as a friend of mine uses those - they have a small screw to fix them in place, rather than a clamp. Price with VAT and delivery tends to be between £100 and £150, but they solve your problems, as the TVR driver says on ACT's website - I didn't write that, it's not my car either, but it is word for word what I would have written.

Write your Bedford experience off to misfortune and move forwards - life's too short!

[gruffalo]

I had something similar to this but with Circuit Days, two day event at Spa, noise testing done by circuit days using their own meter, failed the static at 116dB, loads of us failed and we had all passed at other at 105dB at other tracks, my car in normally around 104dB.

Their attitude was that the meter could not possibly be wrong, questioned calibration dates, it had never been calibrated since it was purchased. This was a meter that was being used to decide if people who had invested north of £1000 could take part in the event?

Their advice was to go home or set fire to the cars so they could keep warm.

Great customer service and empathy.

Did end up getting on track with the help of a race team that were at the event, they came up with a way of stuffing the tailpipes with wadding with wire mesh to hold it in. Passed the noise test and took all the wadding out and ran the car for two days without triggering a single noise meter.

Problem I have is that I really like Spa and Circuit Days are one of the few TDO's that are regular there so I guess I will have to use them again but I really would rather not.

[QBee]

gruffalo said:

I had something similar to this but with Circuit Days, two day event at Spa, noise testing done by circuit days using their own meter, failed the static at 116dB, loads of us failed and we had all passed at other at 105dB at other tracks, my car in normally around 104dB.

Their attitude was that the meter could not possibly be wrong, questioned calibration dates, it had never been calibrated since it was purchased. This was a meter that was being used to decide if people who had invested north of £1000 could take part in the event?

Their advice was to go home or set fire to the cars so they could keep warm.

Great customer service and empathy.

Did end up getting on track with the help of a race team that were at the event, they came up with a way of stuffing the tailpipes with wadding with wire mesh to hold it in. Passed the noise test and took all the wadding out and ran the car for two days without triggering a single noise meter.

Problem I have is that I really like Spa and Circuit Days are one of the few TDO's that are regular there so I guess I will have to use them again but I really would rather not.

Letter writing time. Write to the MD pointing out what you have said here. They will calibrate their meter if they have any sense, they don't want to lose you and all your mates and readers of PH. It's a competitive old world out there, and they don't have the benefit of owning the circuits, unlike MSV. Surprising thing is that i have never found MSV arrogant, they always listen and are fair with their customers.

As Tescos know, its ten times easier to keep an existing happy customer than find a new one, hence their refunds policy.

I have been as low as 97dB and as high as 106db at different MSV events, always with the same car, warmed up by the 40-100 mile drive to the circuit. First thing I do on arrival is go to be noise tested while the car is still warm, but has had it's one big explosive bang on the over-run, slowing down on arriving at the circuit!!
In their case they use the same type of meter at each track and supposedly calibrate it before the event (they have a calibration device in the case). Its the ruddy meters......I bought one myself and took it back to Maplins the same day as it was completely unreliable.

My "Decibel 10th" iPhone app was free and far more accurate. It has me at 101.5dB. I suggest you download a few noisemeter apps to your iPhone for future use when challenging the circuit meters.....

And buy some track day cans. £100 to £150 from ACT

http://www.actproducts.co.uk/silencing/trackdays/

Saves a lot of arguing and wasted track fees. Their attitude when i get the cans out of the boot is always very positive - they can see I am trying to comply. I have saved myself three lost fees this year alone.

[GreigM]

I genuinely wonder if this "sending you home" nonsense without a refund would hold up in court? After all the stuff on the track day claim thread about the legality of the signed waivers etc, is the sound check and subsequently denying you track time at all legal without some level of refund?

[mrmr96]

GreigM said:

I genuinely wonder if this "sending you home" nonsense without a refund would hold up in court? After all the stuff on the track day claim thread about the legality of the signed waivers etc, is the sound check and subsequently denying you track time at all legal without some level of refund?

At Bedford you can call them up and arrange to go and have your car noise tested for free. The idea is that you should do this in advance of making a booking.

[GreigM]

mrmr96 said:

GreigM said:

I genuinely wonder if this "sending you home" nonsense without a refund would hold up in court? After all the stuff on the track day claim thread about the legality of the signed waivers etc, is the sound check and subsequently denying you track time at all legal without some level of refund?

At Bedford you can call them up and arrange to go and have your car noise tested for free. The idea is that you should do this in advance of making a booking.

Yes, but its not part of the contract that you do so.

[QBee]

No, its just a service that all MSV tracks offer in the interest of supporting their customers.

I was offered this by Snetterton when I changed my engine and wasn't sure about decibel levels, and after I de-catted too I went to Cadwell when they had the MX5 club on track and got tested.

Just call your nearest MSV track's local number and ask - they are really friendly. Odd isn't it, a track owner actually liking motorsport and wanting everyone to come on track?......but the attitude seems to be at all levels of that company all the way from Jonathan Palmer right through to the marshalls and canteen staff. I have actually seen JP drop into more track days by helicopter than not this year. Gets my respect.

Only trouble was that the Cadwell noise meter read 102 for one tail pipe and 106 for the other......and both come through the same silencer box from a single front section. What it did do was alert me that my previously 94 decibel car was now close to the 101-105 decibel limits, so I ordered some bolt-on cans for safety and have not had a problem at any track day since. I have even run a couple without the cans.

[Wh00sher]

I`m certain that on most circuits it isn`t the TDO who sets / enforces the noise limit and the policing of that limit, but the circuits themselves ?

I`ve done a couple of days at Donington this year and the TDO (not Javelin) introduced the woman employed by Donington to enforce noise. She explained the circuit has a limit they MUST stick to as part of their agreement with the local authorities who give them permission to run trackdays.

Similar situation at Anglesey, I`ve done several Javelin and Circuit Days events there, the circuit have their own noise guy who tests the cars and enforces the limits, nothing to do with the TDO.

Same with MSV, it`s often MSV staff who often give an input during the briefing about the noise limits at the circuit and are the ones doing the testing / enforcing.


Rather than blaming the TDO for something outside their control, perhaps you`d be better speaking to the noise testers and working with them instead ?




QBee, a mate has an MX5 and has exactly the same issues with different reading from each tailpipe. Must be something to do with the internal layout of the rear silencer ?

[braddo]

I suspect the OP didn't listen in the drivers' briefing either. When I went to Bedford with Javelin earlier in the year, they were very clear about the noise policy and how it was out of their hands.

The OP is shooting the messenger.

[geeks]

Went to an MSV day at Bedford a couple of months ago. They were very clear that if you were to trip it by 1DB then they would black flag you with no arguing end of. They did add an adenum onto this that if you could get your exhaust sorted you could get renoise tested and be allowed back on...

Track days are under threat at alot of circuits. Having a firm stance on this stuff will keep them going in the future. If you dont like it, sell up and find another hobby!

[Henry Fiddleton]

Echo'ing the above.

Noise doesnt equal speed - keep the exhaust noise down so we can keep getting out to the circuits.

Done a few track days where (by witch craft) cars have passed the static noise tests- but then on track its ear bleeding and can be heard many miles away.

Good luck to the OP, unluckly.

Kam

[QBee]

For the regular track-dayer whose car is other than standard Eurobox quiet, the sensible answer is a once only bullet bite and buy some bolt on cans.

You invest on average £300-400 per track day (TDO fee, fuel, getting there and back, tyre wear, etc etc), so perhaps if you cannot get your car well under the noise limits, £100-150 to buy certainty that you will be able to run isn't as daft as it sounds?

[mrmr96]

GreigM said:

mrmr96 said:

GreigM said:

I genuinely wonder if this "sending you home" nonsense without a refund would hold up in court? After all the stuff on the track day claim thread about the legality of the signed waivers etc, is the sound check and subsequently denying you track time at all legal without some level of refund?

At Bedford you can call them up and arrange to go and have your car noise tested for free. The idea is that you should do this in advance of making a booking.

Yes, but its not part of the contract that you do so.

I'd imagine that part of the contract is them advertising what the dB limit is on the day, and you agreeing with that upon booking. It's then up to you to turn up with a compliant vehicle.

[dapearson]

With the issues that tracks are having with noise risking activities for ALL users of those tracks, not just those attending trackdays, i'm of the opinion that running a loud exhaust at a trackday is completely pointless and frankly a bit...well...rude. You're not chasing 1/10ths of a second and you're not running to championship regulations, so why have a loud exhaust?

I've never understood why anyone would want a loud exhaust on the road either, so maybe i'm just odd

[mad4amanda]

QBee said:

I have been as low as 97dB and as high as 106db at different MSV events, always with the same car, warmed up by the 40-100 mile drive to the circuit. First thing I do on arrival is go to be noise tested while the car is still warm, but has had it's one big explosive bang on the over-run, slowing down on arriving at the circuit!!
In their case they use the same type of meter at each track and supposedly calibrate it before the event (they have a calibration device in the case). Its the ruddy meters......I bought one myself and took it back to Maplins the same day as it was completely unreliable.

My "Decibel 10th" iPhone app was free and far more accurate. It has me at 101.5dB. I suggest you download a few noisemeter apps to your iPhone for future use when challenging the circuit meters.....

couple of points to raise on this as a noise tester, however I agree with your conclusion.

Firstly it is entirely possible to get different readings from the same car on different days they can be affected by weather ,temperature (ambient), humidity and rain , also position of the car for test including slope and buildings nearby reflecting sound waves back to the meter , rpm and how steady the foot is ( for best results slow and gentle is better), background noise like how close the car behind you is .

Secondly as part of our operating practice we normally have 2 meters available , we always calibrate the meter every morning using the calibration device in the kit, and these are calibrated externally in line with manufacturers and MSA requirements ( cant remember off the top of my head the timescale but they do get picked up and returned for testing).
some of the iphone apps can be close within 1 Db, but some of the other cheaper meters we have seen have been 5Db out or more so useless really, The meter we use isn't a maplins one but a professional meter meeting MSA/ACU requirements.

Remember that over time silencers will become less effective especially if they are absorbsion (?) devices (most are in part),that are constructed using metal or glassfibre wadding over time and heating it degrades losing effectiveness and raising noise levels many are repackable and should be repacked regularly.
A note on repacking if is possible to overpack a silencer and ram so much wadding in that there is no air gap and the silencer doesn't operate as effectively either ( you would be surprised how many race teams get caught out by this).

QBee said:

Only trouble was that the Cadwell noise meter read 102 for one tail pipe and 106 for the other......and both come through the same silencer box from a single front section.

This is entirely normal and the procedures are to measure both and average the reading to come up with a single static figure in your case 104 Db.

More general points : Curcuits have noise agreements in place with local councils (unless its Mallory) we do not breach them otherwise the very operation of the circuit is at risk for everyone.
The Ts&Cs are clear, the noise limit is published for every day and evening (don't assume they are the same) and noisy days are less frequent so will cost more .
Please do ring the circuit beforehand and if possible take the car/bike to be tested beforehand or if you know that it is an issue for the venue(Bedford especially )or you have a louder car (TVR) or one with a modded exhaust ( but not necessarily ) buy some device to quieten it down in the form of bungs or cans , but don't expect to use them for noise test and then run without them for the sessions the startline staff are informed of cars requiring baffles or cans and will look for them as you are released onto circuit as part of the safety checks and the noise sticker has an identifier as do our records showing the vehicle was tested as such.

That was the static test!

Having met the static test you then have to meet the drivebys which area mix of fixed and mobile meters at multiple points around the circuit some are linked to cameras showing the car and level and if there was traffic or not. The levels are preset and some will trigger alarms to prompt investigation and/or exclusion all noise issues are logged with remedy and outcome.
As the stakes are such we will not allow lifting or short shifting as this doesnt allow for the fact the vehicle is too loud elsewhere and too easily gets forgotten anyway.
The noise limits are not debateable, they are you might say a "moment of truth" we will try and work with you to advise you, but ultimately it is your responsibility to prepare and present a car or bike meeting the Ts&Cs. If you know its loud have a back up plan, and no your elise with an S3 silencer system wont meet 98Db for an evening!
Got to run my hearing aid battery needs charging and I need to practice my 0.75 times table!

[gruffalo]

Completely agree that noise readings can be altered by weather and the such, however in my case it was a 14dB difference and as every 3dB is a doubling in sound pressure i find it hard to believe that a cold day made that much difference.

[mad4amanda]

gruffalo said:

Completely agree that noise readings can be altered by weather and the such, however in my case it was a 14dB difference and as every 3dB is a doubling in sound pressure i find it hard to believe that a cold day made that much difference.

Sorry I wasn't referring to your post as I assumed it was a meter or operator issue , hence I did not quote you.

[QBee]

mad4amanda said:

Sorry I wasn't referring to your post as I assumed it was a meter or operator issue , hence I did not quote you.

Thanks for the very full response from the other point of view - much appreciated.
I had already noticed that evening events had lower noise limits, and know that Bedford is closely watched by the local council, as are some other tracks. We all want to keep circuits open - it's too much fun for them to be closed, like Mallory has been.

[g40steve]

Javelin are great, sounds to me like the circuit is where your gripe should be directed.

At Donington my car just used to pass on it's previous exhaust, with several cars passing the point it would get tripped.

I had a new back box fabricated that even on full chat is approx 88db.

As has been mentioned already if you 'think' it is loud you will get flagged.