Destination Nurburgring 10 trackday, 2nd and 3rd July 2014.
Discussion
Regarding the driving standards compared to TF days, I only paid to drive on Wednesday so spent a very bored Thursday milling about. I stayed behind after the end of the DN day due to having my car's wheels balanced & decided to head out for 2 quick laps on the TF session that had just started.
Whilst there was some questionable driving here & there during the DN days, what I saw & experienced on 2 quick laps of the TF session was far & above a thousand times worse than anything I saw during both DN days. A German registered Astra came flying up the inside of me and an M3 at Hohenrain heading towards T13 which meant we both had to really anchor on and taking actual avoiding action. No time to indicate, no time to adjust yourself to a place where he can pass easily.. He literally flew up behind us & over took on that corner. Bonkers.
I will openly admit though I didn't do half as many laps as the rest of you guys so probably didn't see as much poor driving as you might have. Oh and well put too LOH & see you next year Jeff too
Whilst there was some questionable driving here & there during the DN days, what I saw & experienced on 2 quick laps of the TF session was far & above a thousand times worse than anything I saw during both DN days. A German registered Astra came flying up the inside of me and an M3 at Hohenrain heading towards T13 which meant we both had to really anchor on and taking actual avoiding action. No time to indicate, no time to adjust yourself to a place where he can pass easily.. He literally flew up behind us & over took on that corner. Bonkers.
I will openly admit though I didn't do half as many laps as the rest of you guys so probably didn't see as much poor driving as you might have. Oh and well put too LOH & see you next year Jeff too
A frustrating Wednesday with closures from accidents and reports of several right side overtakes...
On Thursday, Darren asked us to stop every driver going out and remind them of the NO overtaking on the right and suggest they enjoy the perfect conditions and build up speed gradually. It`s funny, every driver we stopped and said that we`d had reports of overtaking on the right the day before looked all innocent and said "I would NEVER do that...that`s terrible..." seems we had a carpark full of innocent drivers.
Thursday was much better, first closure was near lunchtime from a carfire. IMO, that`s a different thing to an accident after the first 15 minutes of a day. It was hot, cars were getting stressed and some couldn`t cope. Shame to see them in flames though
Just before that closure, the normal trackday `ebb and flow` had settled down which meant no waiting to get on track and pretty clear laps. Then, once there was a Red, you had the usual large numbers going out when it opened and busy laps.
I spoke to a lot of people in the carpark during the 2 days and everyone was really friendly, obviously dissapointed with the closures, but as mentioned earlier, the yellows / reds are decided by the circuit. I felt that they seemed happier to collect cars under waved yellows on Thursday compared to the Wednesday.
A couple of laps from my Golf, they look busy, but both were just after a red flag, so lots of people were going straight out. The `quieter` laps are less interesting to be honest.
I`ve never been able to keep up with a Supercharged Atom before, never mind pass one !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c04bw4FZDWE
I had another lap following a 993RS Porsche which both I and the Porsche driver enjoyed and had a good chat about afterwards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHTuNpCWAz0
Porsche passes down the Foxhole and I try and keep up for the rest of the lap.
I`m still buzzing after a cracking few days
On Thursday, Darren asked us to stop every driver going out and remind them of the NO overtaking on the right and suggest they enjoy the perfect conditions and build up speed gradually. It`s funny, every driver we stopped and said that we`d had reports of overtaking on the right the day before looked all innocent and said "I would NEVER do that...that`s terrible..." seems we had a carpark full of innocent drivers.
Thursday was much better, first closure was near lunchtime from a carfire. IMO, that`s a different thing to an accident after the first 15 minutes of a day. It was hot, cars were getting stressed and some couldn`t cope. Shame to see them in flames though
Just before that closure, the normal trackday `ebb and flow` had settled down which meant no waiting to get on track and pretty clear laps. Then, once there was a Red, you had the usual large numbers going out when it opened and busy laps.I spoke to a lot of people in the carpark during the 2 days and everyone was really friendly, obviously dissapointed with the closures, but as mentioned earlier, the yellows / reds are decided by the circuit. I felt that they seemed happier to collect cars under waved yellows on Thursday compared to the Wednesday.
A couple of laps from my Golf, they look busy, but both were just after a red flag, so lots of people were going straight out. The `quieter` laps are less interesting to be honest.
I`ve never been able to keep up with a Supercharged Atom before, never mind pass one !!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c04bw4FZDWE
I had another lap following a 993RS Porsche which both I and the Porsche driver enjoyed and had a good chat about afterwards
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHTuNpCWAz0
Porsche passes down the Foxhole and I try and keep up for the rest of the lap.
I`m still buzzing after a cracking few days
DN days are very well run & are my favourite track days along with Goldtrack events. However, the standard of driving some of which was stupidly dangerous I witnessed along with my friend akin to the worst TF days.
With the Wednesday opening closure just after the 9.00am start seemed to set the tone. Darren's briefing was very clear for which fell on many ignorant or deaf ears. It was a disappointing event all round due to the closures & s
te driving.
I'm adamant that the TF rules should apply to DN track days at the Ring, the culprit's that cause the closures pay for damage & the 'downtime' as well. The downtime alone on the Wednesday was nearing 4 hours or even exceeded that including early total closure mid afternoon, based on the approx amount of cars attending was worth a minimum £50K conbined to everyone. It may not put idiots off screaming around but the downtime liability isn't with us all reluctantly sunbathing in the surrounding car parks.....
The Ring owners are switched on 'you crash etc! sort damage plus downtime, now pay up please???
With the Wednesday opening closure just after the 9.00am start seemed to set the tone. Darren's briefing was very clear for which fell on many ignorant or deaf ears. It was a disappointing event all round due to the closures & s
te driving. I'm adamant that the TF rules should apply to DN track days at the Ring, the culprit's that cause the closures pay for damage & the 'downtime' as well. The downtime alone on the Wednesday was nearing 4 hours or even exceeded that including early total closure mid afternoon, based on the approx amount of cars attending was worth a minimum £50K conbined to everyone. It may not put idiots off screaming around but the downtime liability isn't with us all reluctantly sunbathing in the surrounding car parks.....
The Ring owners are switched on 'you crash etc! sort damage plus downtime, now pay up please???
It was my first DN and I found it a great couple of days and in line with my expectations of any standard UK track day. There will always be some who forget the rules, crashes, stoppages and the like; but in contrast to my few TF day experiences it was phenomenal. I managed 21 laps on Thursday and about 15 laps on Wednesday, if I got much more ring time I think my 1 series would have fallen apart.
I do think there can be some issues with track only or race cars mixing it with road cars, at any track not just the Nordschleif. The speed differences can be really very high due to their capability, and the mindset of those driving them is different. A gap most road car drivers wouldn't see as an overtake opportunity is easily a gap to some one used to racing. On a couple of occasions I had to take to the curb or dirt because I indicated to let a car pass and then each caged 911 behind me thought they could fit through the ever diminishing sized gap, throwing me way off line. I very nearly took out a Porsche on the exit of Adenauer forst because of the above...
In general I am happy with race teams mixing it on track days as they are never slower than you and are often past you in a moment, it is just some times a little more consideration of less capable cars would be appreciated!
I do think there can be some issues with track only or race cars mixing it with road cars, at any track not just the Nordschleif. The speed differences can be really very high due to their capability, and the mindset of those driving them is different. A gap most road car drivers wouldn't see as an overtake opportunity is easily a gap to some one used to racing. On a couple of occasions I had to take to the curb or dirt because I indicated to let a car pass and then each caged 911 behind me thought they could fit through the ever diminishing sized gap, throwing me way off line. I very nearly took out a Porsche on the exit of Adenauer forst because of the above...
In general I am happy with race teams mixing it on track days as they are never slower than you and are often past you in a moment, it is just some times a little more consideration of less capable cars would be appreciated!
I was there Wed and just first 90 mins of Thurs. Thurs am already seemed calmer than Wed, I hope that continued for the day?
The energy on Wed was too enthusiastic and aggressive with lots of cars overtaking on the right, in braking zones and the bends. Accidents were waiting to happen, it's actually a testament to the cars and driving skills that more didn't! I think a couple of very public black flags should have been given after the second red to help calm things. It would only take some radio communication with the marshalls to pick a couple of cars making two or more offences.
I really enjoyed my trip. The Ring is even better than I expected, an awesome track. Most people were great in the car parks too. However, I think the DN team need to make some better enforcement next year. Most of the bad driving wasn't "incompetent", but experienced drivers racing on a track day.
The energy on Wed was too enthusiastic and aggressive with lots of cars overtaking on the right, in braking zones and the bends. Accidents were waiting to happen, it's actually a testament to the cars and driving skills that more didn't! I think a couple of very public black flags should have been given after the second red to help calm things. It would only take some radio communication with the marshalls to pick a couple of cars making two or more offences.
I really enjoyed my trip. The Ring is even better than I expected, an awesome track. Most people were great in the car parks too. However, I think the DN team need to make some better enforcement next year. Most of the bad driving wasn't "incompetent", but experienced drivers racing on a track day.
Personally, from a professional view, the second day was far better. Shame that a zero tolerance stance had to be taken by the DN team, but considering that , after spending the two days with complete novices to the Ring and the types of car used, it was much easier for them to get to grips with the tasks in hand.
Why on earth would someone want to take the risk of what for the person involved, was a balls out lap on the first highspeed lap of the two days?
It defies logic!
I was really disapointed with the thirteen right overtakers on Wednesday, scared the hell out of one of my clients and very nearly caused him to quit there and then.!!!
As for TF instead on of a DN or other trackday-the latter is (usually) the best bet!
Perhaps a Zero Tolerance for both days would be the first step?
Well done to Darren and the team for the event though, never an easy thing to please all the people all the time.
Why on earth would someone want to take the risk of what for the person involved, was a balls out lap on the first highspeed lap of the two days?
It defies logic!
I was really disapointed with the thirteen right overtakers on Wednesday, scared the hell out of one of my clients and very nearly caused him to quit there and then.!!!
As for TF instead on of a DN or other trackday-the latter is (usually) the best bet!
Perhaps a Zero Tolerance for both days would be the first step?
Well done to Darren and the team for the event though, never an easy thing to please all the people all the time.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Personally, I'd rather have seen double yellows at foxhole to keep the day running but that's just my opinion.
Did you see the accident? I came through it very shortly after, and there was debris everywhere. There is a reason it took 2 hours to clean up and close the circuit. There was no way that you could have got by with double yellows at that accident. I tried to find a clear path to go past the carnage, and I couldn't avoid driving over quite a bit of debris. Was just lucky it didn't cause any tyre damage etc. Closing the circuit was definitely the right decision.
Firstly, I would like to say a massive thank you to all the DN team for making this happen.
I was on the Thursday in my Clio, and was very very glad for the extra-stern briefing that we got in the morning, as they day went very smoothly on the whole. That said, I was barged past on the inside of Brünnchen on the sighting laps(!) but complained to the DN guys and didn't see that car again. I'm not sure if he was booted or if I just got lucky, but I think the only way we're going to avoid the closures and poor driving standards is if there is the legitimate threat of being kicked out of the event if you receive complaints against you.
I think the standard of driving on Thursday was pretty good. I do wish that some of the guys in the really fast cars would have a little respect for people like me trying to thrash 170bhp around, though. I was flashed on a couple of occasions because I had to take a defensive line in order to avoid a potential incident - one notable example was the M3 who was making an attempt to pass me up the inside of the compression at Foxhole, then again in to Adernauer Forst! I did of course let him past as soon as it was safe to do so.. I just think that kind of impatient attitude needs to be stamped down on, as that is what causes the big accidents and down time.
I did notice the standard of driving plummeted around the 4pm mark, once there was no longer the threat of being ejected from the event! Another M3 dove up the inside of me as I turned in to the mini Karussel, almost pushing me off the track.
So I think next year there will need to be some very stern policing of the driving standards in order to avoid all this stuff happening again!
1 complaint and you get a stern talking to about your driving.
2 complaints and you sit in the pits for an hour.
3 complaints and you go home.
Anyway.. I will stop now, lest it turn in to a rant!
Thank you again to Darren and the DN team.. I will definitely be back next year.
I was on the Thursday in my Clio, and was very very glad for the extra-stern briefing that we got in the morning, as they day went very smoothly on the whole. That said, I was barged past on the inside of Brünnchen on the sighting laps(!) but complained to the DN guys and didn't see that car again. I'm not sure if he was booted or if I just got lucky, but I think the only way we're going to avoid the closures and poor driving standards is if there is the legitimate threat of being kicked out of the event if you receive complaints against you.
I think the standard of driving on Thursday was pretty good. I do wish that some of the guys in the really fast cars would have a little respect for people like me trying to thrash 170bhp around, though. I was flashed on a couple of occasions because I had to take a defensive line in order to avoid a potential incident - one notable example was the M3 who was making an attempt to pass me up the inside of the compression at Foxhole, then again in to Adernauer Forst! I did of course let him past as soon as it was safe to do so.. I just think that kind of impatient attitude needs to be stamped down on, as that is what causes the big accidents and down time.
I did notice the standard of driving plummeted around the 4pm mark, once there was no longer the threat of being ejected from the event! Another M3 dove up the inside of me as I turned in to the mini Karussel, almost pushing me off the track.
So I think next year there will need to be some very stern policing of the driving standards in order to avoid all this stuff happening again!
1 complaint and you get a stern talking to about your driving.
2 complaints and you sit in the pits for an hour.
3 complaints and you go home.
Anyway.. I will stop now, lest it turn in to a rant!
Thank you again to Darren and the DN team.. I will definitely be back next year.
sixspeed said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Personally, I'd rather have seen double yellows at foxhole to keep the day running but that's just my opinion.
Did you see the accident? I came through it very shortly after, and there was debris everywhere. There is a reason it took 2 hours to clean up and close the circuit. There was no way that you could have got by with double yellows at that accident. I tried to find a clear path to go past the carnage, and I couldn't avoid driving over quite a bit of debris. Was just lucky it didn't cause any tyre damage etc. Closing the circuit was definitely the right decision.
i fully get your point, closing the circuit obviously was the right (& by your description the only) decision.
however, they didn't just close the track to clear up the debris-they closed it to replace the armco & that's what i take umbrage at. let's take this accident at foxhole as an example of how it could be handled differently;
they can get the little road sweepers to the site of any accident pretty quickly along with the recovery truck. get the car onto the truck & get sweeping! clean up any fluids & you can imagine the track being shut for half an hour.
now, i understand the armco needs replacing so that's why i suggest the need for double yellows & a crew working at the side of the track replacing the armco behind cones.
that's how they used to do it on TF days (keeps the money rolling in
) & indeed how they did it on track days as well. all it would take is a car at the top of the foxhole with it's lights flashing & a marshal waving flags at the beginning of the coned areas to make sure everyone slowed down.the wrist-band bods at the circuit simply warn you on entering the track "double waved yellows at foxhole-anyone over 30mph will be evicted".
i totally get that some closures are inevitable, but to just issue blanket closures until the circuit is as good as new plainly doesn't work-well, it doesn't work for the customer.
i'd personally much prefer to be able to keep lapping even if it meant part of the circuit was taken at a snails pace.
how long was the track shut for on wednesday again? 2 & a 1/2 hours in the morning, an hour around lunch time & the last 45 mins of the evening.
4 hours! something like that anyway.
i agree completely with the above poster however, the briefing should make self policing more obvious. see anyone acting like a t
t, report it & we'll deal with it. removing people from the event due to bad behavior would be awkward for the organisers but easier than dealing with the aftermath of huge accidents i'd imagine.
Only did the Thursday but heard all about the stoppages on Wednesday - not good. One English dick at the start of the day that obviously didnt understand what a sighting lap was as he came shooting past me in a long line of cars correctly observing the no overtaking rule until the circuit went green at 9am - maybe he cant tell the time. Never got the car number as it went past too quick.
It was mentioned earlier and I think its relevant. The race car drivers have a different mindset to approaching the day. They treat it as a test day and driving home in their car is not in the forefront of their mind. That said I was never passed on the right hand side but one incident was very close when I was a passenger and a race car tried to slide up the inside without my driver realizing and peeling in for the apex. Fag paper doesnt even come close !
Interesting comments about the marshals not wanting to go out on a live track - I saw several pick up trucks driving round with the appropriate flags being waved and it all ran very well apart from one accident that happened just around a very tight blind right hander near the begining of the lap. We passed twice under waved yellows and slowed accordingly. The next time round the marshal had clearly got bored of waving the flag and was sat motionless so we carried on to come flying round the right hander to see the marshals still wandering around in the middle of the road so in that instance I would not want to go on the live track either if my marshal mate is gonna go the sleep !!
On the whole a great day but pure luck we picked the Thursday and not the Wednesday and big thanks to the DN team.
It was mentioned earlier and I think its relevant. The race car drivers have a different mindset to approaching the day. They treat it as a test day and driving home in their car is not in the forefront of their mind. That said I was never passed on the right hand side but one incident was very close when I was a passenger and a race car tried to slide up the inside without my driver realizing and peeling in for the apex. Fag paper doesnt even come close !
Interesting comments about the marshals not wanting to go out on a live track - I saw several pick up trucks driving round with the appropriate flags being waved and it all ran very well apart from one accident that happened just around a very tight blind right hander near the begining of the lap. We passed twice under waved yellows and slowed accordingly. The next time round the marshal had clearly got bored of waving the flag and was sat motionless so we carried on to come flying round the right hander to see the marshals still wandering around in the middle of the road so in that instance I would not want to go on the live track either if my marshal mate is gonna go the sleep !!
On the whole a great day but pure luck we picked the Thursday and not the Wednesday and big thanks to the DN team.
Wh00sher said:
A couple of photos from the event. The usual top quality photos from Jochen@Frozenspeed !
Taking a bit of kerb at Wipperman
Ex Muhle
Good panning shot
Kallenhard
And finally, the obligatory Karussel pic.
Yours were our favourite car at the event, proper 'Wolf in sheep's clothing' driven really well too, great vids! didn't realise how quick you were until coming down Foxhall on opening lap, a clutch of GT3's etc were flying down, I let em passed n you were chasing them down & looked like they were holding you up!!! Class.Taking a bit of kerb at Wipperman
Ex Muhle
Good panning shot
Kallenhard
And finally, the obligatory Karussel pic.
Shaun
LaurasOtherHalf said:
My favourite
does anyone know who the alfa lot were? They were all really well driven, especially good to see the 8C being driven as intended-he was really giving it some!http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=F0q8SN166WQ
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