Is it me?

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QBee

Original Poster:

20,905 posts

143 months

Friday 11th April 2014
quotequote all
Am I missing something?
I turn up for a track day session say 3/4 of an hour before the briefing, prepare my car, noise test, refresh the driver, briefing starts pretty well on time.

We all troop back to our cars, and the keen ones jump in, start up and form an eagerly queue in the pit lane, ready for the sighting laps. The rest of us scratch our heads and anything else in reach, and settle down for an extended chat session.

Because we know that the pit lane queue will sit there for at least 15 minutes before anything happens.

WHY????????? And why, when those laps are over, is there another shorter pause before we actually get going?

ok, on a full day it might not really matter too much, but on yesterday's evening session, where we were promised to be on track from 5.30 to 8.00, we actually finished the briefing at 5.20 but only got going on real laps at 6.10.....and some muppet in a Purgartory 106 promptly binned it on the second corner, so our first of several red flags. The session ended at 7.40.....so barely 90 minutes fun, and actually only about an hour of track time between red flags.

Ok rant over, but your thoughts/experiences/explanations would be welcome. Over 2 grand of my hard earned has one to TDOs in the last two years, I don't expect to feel this frustrated.

Tribal Chestnut

2,997 posts

181 months

Friday 11th April 2014
quotequote all
Who was the TDO? I fancy doing one soon, so would be nice to know who to avoid.

AndrewO

647 posts

182 months

Friday 11th April 2014
quotequote all
Apart from the delayed start and the sighting lap rubbish I think its a bit of a lottery on an evening session. There are going to be people looking to push the limits and only a short time to do it in.

SPA on Wednesday, dry day and only two red flags, 10mins before lunch and 10mins to the end.

QBee

Original Poster:

20,905 posts

143 months

Friday 11th April 2014
quotequote all
Tribal Chestnut said:
Who was the TDO? I fancy doing one soon, so would be nice to know who to avoid.
Sorry, I don't want to name and shame, that's not fair as I am truly asking if anyone has an explanation.
There may be some organisational matter that i have overlooked that holds everything up.
I also get a feeling that it is pretty universal, as i have been on many track days at several tracks, never without that irritating wait to get under way.mad

Some of the TDO's read these threads and are good enough to stick their heads above the parapet when explanations are required.clap

I agree with the other poster, it is most noticeable at evening events, but I went to three evenings last year and was luckier at those events.
The good thing about them is that you don't lose an entire working day, and you leave wanting more.
Go to any full day event and count the number of cars still circulating after 2.30/3.00. I so wish I could do either a morning, or better still an afternoon. Last time I went to Bedford, only one car was on track between 4.00 and 5.00, but he kept us entertained in his orange Exige, finishing off with a massive spin in front of the pits at over 100mph. Fortunately he had brown upholstery.hehe

Last night it was dry and warm,
the first red flag was the guy on the second corner, cold tyres and hot right foot, all that pent up excitement from having been kept waiting,
the second an MR2 Turbo that now is just an MR2......and the rest of us had a very exciting time on his oil,
the third a Rover 25 that lost it on a tight right hander (no idea why that was red flagged, unless he lost drive, as they certainly didn't bother to sweep the track. I have lost it at the same corner and no red flag appeared)
and there was a fourth one, but I don't remember what that was for.

I guess the number of red flags accentuated the issue, but credit to the track staff, they got it going again pretty quickly.

BTW, for your info, certainly at the main race circuits, the control tower has video cameras everywhere and a huge bank of screens so that they can see the entire track and record everything on video.
So just because you aren't near a marshall's post, don't assume your misdemeanours haven't been seen, and there are now track limits rules.....

Tribal Chestnut

2,997 posts

181 months

Friday 11th April 2014
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You shouldn't have any qualms about naming and shaming. Losing that much of a session is taking the mick.

QBee

Original Poster:

20,905 posts

143 months

Friday 11th April 2014
quotequote all
Part of my issue is that I don't know if it was the organisers or the track owners, the other part is, frankly, that it happens at every track day I attend.....though if I think about it, all those tracks are owned by the same person.......

ETA
Just phoned them to book another one. They said, off the cuff, that before an evening it could be a staff changeover, or the need to give them their statutory breaks, but he couldn't explain the same delay in the mornings.....

Edited by QBee on Friday 11th April 15:04

Tribal Chestnut

2,997 posts

181 months

Friday 11th April 2014
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So advertise the session for its actual duration, or get more staff in. What track?

Sigmamark7

314 posts

160 months

Friday 11th April 2014
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I'm guessing that it must be a MSV Venue, but if you need to change staff or give them a break before the evening session, surely it isn't beyond the wit of man to make sure that this doesn't happen at the expense of the paying customers! If it's the TDO staff issues which cause it they should sort it out and if it's the Circuit staff who cause it, the TDO should sort it out with the Circuit. Unlike Motor Racing, the Marshalls, Medics and general staff are all getting paid, so basically the TDO has an obligation to provide what they are advertising and charging us for. I believe that under the sale of goods act, we are entitled to receive the goods or services as they are advertised, so it might be interesting to see exactly what is on offer!
I don't care if an evening session is advertised as 1 hour, 2 hours, or how ever many hours are available, but I would want to know beforehand so I can make an informed decision about attending. I also don't care if the sessions are stopped by some arse embedding his car into the barriers, because sometimes that happens and the organisers have little opportunity to mitigate that risk, but not starting on time and finishing early is not acceptable.

git-r

969 posts

198 months

Friday 11th April 2014
quotequote all
QBee said:
Am I missing something?
I turn up for a track day session say 3/4 of an hour before the briefing, prepare my car, noise test, refresh the driver, briefing starts pretty well on time.

We all troop back to our cars, and the keen ones jump in, start up and form an eagerly queue in the pit lane, ready for the sighting laps. The rest of us scratch our heads and anything else in reach, and settle down for an extended chat session.

Because we know that the pit lane queue will sit there for at least 15 minutes before anything happens.

WHY????????? And why, when those laps are over, is there another shorter pause before we actually get going?

ok, on a full day it might not really matter too much, but on yesterday's evening session, where we were promised to be on track from 5.30 to 8.00, we actually finished the briefing at 5.20 but only got going on real laps at 6.10.....and some muppet in a Purgartory 106 promptly binned it on the second corner, so our first of several red flags. The session ended at 7.40.....so barely 90 minutes fun, and actually only about an hour of track time between red flags.

Ok rant over, but your thoughts/experiences/explanations would be welcome. Over 2 grand of my hard earned has one to TDOs in the last two years, I don't expect to feel this frustrated.
You should contact the TDO expressing your issues and ask what they are going to do about it. I wouldn't be surprised if they gave you a discount or offered some sort of credit. You should also point out it's not on advertising a certain amount of track time when less time was given..

ukkid35

6,138 posts

172 months

Friday 11th April 2014
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My advice would be to build a relationship with your preferred TDO. Don't berate them for something that might be out of their control, let them know you were disappointed instead. Sooner or later you will need them to look kindly on you because of some random mechanical issue that you couldn't predict that closed the track for an hour or more. Or maybe you just needed a raincheck.

QBee

Original Poster:

20,905 posts

143 months

Friday 11th April 2014
quotequote all
I have indeed asked them for an explanation. Awaiting an answer. I was hoping someone on here would know the answer.

Ellerslie

129 posts

155 months

Friday 11th April 2014
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I have noticed this often happens with evening sessions. i don't think I've ever got on track at the advertised time. The offset to this is that they are often less busy and there are usually fewer of the queues you mention in comparison to a full day.

Steve H

5,225 posts

194 months

Sunday 13th April 2014
quotequote all
Let me tell you how this tends to work from my point of view as a regular instructor and occasional TDO.

I'll put the timings in the context of a day session as they are more common, evening sessions shouldn't be any different as the marshals etc would get a break from 5-5.30 and be back on post at 5.30 ready for sighting laps. I think the one difference for evenings is just that when you only have two & a half hours of track time on offer, any delay makes a bigger difference than on a full day.


So, signing on is 7.30-8.30. On a bike trackday they are ready with all the forms signed at 7.31, on a car day half the drivers rock up at 8.25 with no forms and then pull a face when we won't delay the briefing to sign them on. This may not seem to be a problem to the timings of the day as it should just delay the guys who are late but all will become clear……..

So we try to get as many signed on as possible and start briefing by 8.35, finish just before 9am and everyone heads for the paddock. The instructors leading sighting laps head for the end of the pit lane and chat to the marshal while we wait of enough cars to turn up. Typically I'd have plenty of time after I've finished the briefing to answer a couple of questions for people who were too shy to ask in front of everyone, get over to race control to blag a radio and get to the start line before more than a handful of cars have landed in the queue.

On a busy day (say, 80+ cars) we would aim to have two groups of 25+ cars on circuit at once, running on opposite sides of the track to get it done quickly so we are waiting ideally for 50 cars to turn up sharpish. This is while the OP (sorry about picking on you as you won't be the only one, but as you've confessed scratchchin ) is chatting with their mates in the paddock. So, we decide that 50 cars straightaway is clearly not a goer and set off with the first group of 25 cars, when another 25 are waiting the other instructor starts running the second group.

Once the second group has come back in we should already be out with any stragglers but despite numerous tannoy calls we're still waiting so that's a few more minutes lost. We head out with the third group that should be the last ones but then a few more turn up because they were delayed by having to sign on after briefing, they haven't been to this circuit before so don't really want to be straight out into the open session so we either tack them on to the end of a group that's already circulating or we have to run another group.

Once the third or fourth group has returned in they will do a radio check that the circuit is clear and start the open session.

An evening session will run with less cars which should mean less people to sign on and less sighting sessions so it ought to be easier but it's also even more important that everyone is ready to go straight away………..


It's true that some circuits are slower than others in getting things moving and for sure some TDOs will be casual about the time they start their briefings or some may only use one instructor for sighting laps; these things drive me crazy as I'm a trackdayer myself and I want to see the open session starting as soon as possible, but there are delays that even a good organiser cannot avoid.

Cars break down on sighting laps, they spin on sighting laps rolleyes , they keep going round the track even when the queue of cars in front of them is coming back into the paddock (yes, really!), and, they land late for sighting laps.

So, when you asked

QBee said:
Is it me?
at least a part of the answer was yes boxedin

QBee

Original Poster:

20,905 posts

143 months

Sunday 13th April 2014
quotequote all
Thanks for the illuminating answer - much appreciated. I clearly have never been on one of yours. But you do understand the frustrations and make an effort to get things underway. It's the guys who do it day in and day out who seem to have no sense of time until it comes to clearing the track at the end of session.

I used to be Mr Keen, generally in that half dozen at the front of the sighting lap queue, and then we would sit there for what felt like a lifetime, 40 plus cars all waiting for something to happen.

Nowadays I am not Mr Keen. On Thursday evening, Briefing finished 5.20. The first group of 25 got out there into the pitlane PDQ, to be held for nearly 15 minutes. Having been told that there would be two sighting groups I let the first group go and was in the middle of the second one, on the other side of the track.....only then to see 8 stragglers have to go out as a third group. But to be fair that only took about ten minutes. Checking the track was clear then took ages (despite the circuit being 100% covered by CCTV) and as a result when we finally went OPL at 6.10, a frustrated numpty at the front of the first batch on track had a spin at the second corner, causing a red flag.

My next track day is Bedford, 6th May, full day. I will be logging precise timings and any reasons I spot, and will report my findings to the TDOs, who are MSV for that one. Not having a go, just keen to keep track days a fun experience.

Jerry Can

4,424 posts

222 months

Sunday 13th April 2014
quotequote all
I was at an evening track day on Thursday but you must have been at a different circuit as the one i was at went very smoothly. But there again the organiser is pretty laid back and on occasions during the evening it resembled more of a test session than a track day. But that could have been down to the number of competition cars there.

There are however certain things that annoy me about TDO's - even though in most instances it will be something to do with insurance implications as to why they do them.

Firstly - the briefing. I know the TDO may be taking his 10000th briefing but you'd think they know the words off by heart. And also give the briefing a bit of 'energy' When, I wonder will the TDO industry create a video to be run to say a 10 min length that covers all the points - eg flags, overtaking rules etc etc. If this was done, you could then quite legitimately run the video every 30 mins to allow the stragglers to complete the briefing. This would have many advantages:

1) fewer people at a time in the briefing, therefore a smaller room could be used and the audience would be more able to hear and ask questions
2) having a briefing every 30 mins would mean that punters track day enthusiasts could choose a later start time as some may have a distance to travel. Everybody who has ever done a track day knows that you are not going to go on track at 9am and drive round and round until 5pm. So if you started later you could have less chit chat and still get the same driving time.
3) Staggered starts would probably mean fewer early doors spins or session stoppages as there would be fewer cars on track, therefore fewer chances of cars dropping oil etc.
4) Having multiple (video) briefings means that sign on is less of a scrum, makes the whole event more relaxed which probably would have a positive effect on the whole psychology of the day.

Also I think the industry is going to have to mandate a standard briefing video as they currently vary a great deal in terms of content, delivery and things missed out etc.

So come on TDO's modernise your business and provide a more engaging means of explaining the safety and also the routine of the day.

Steve H

5,225 posts

194 months

Sunday 13th April 2014
quotequote all
QB, glad you took that explanation how it was meant, these things don't always run smoothly but picking a TDO that suits your taste is a good starting point. I agree that some in the industry maybe stop caring enough, for me getting the day to run right is a balance and an interesting challenge. If we get it right it looks easy but like most things, it's not always as straightforward as it appears to the customer.

Bedford is tricky to kick off on time due to the long lap, I prefer to do two laps sighting there instead of the usual three - it keeps the time sensible and you aren't going to memorise it in either two or three laps anyway. They are usually pretty slick on the rest so hopefully you'll have a good day.

Jerry, briefings do vary but they should generally include the same basic content as liabilities need to be covered, anyone not including the accepted standard items is a legal time bomb in my view. Some people are naturally entertaining public speakers and others aren't, I always feel my briefings are too dry but I'm there to keep people listening and get the information over, I try to give it energy but for belly-laughs you'd have to go somewhere else I'm afraid getmecoat.

I can't agree about the smaller groups and videos idea,

1) It takes any personality out of the day and the punters should know who they are booking with and get the feel for how things are going to be run.
2) Briefings do, and should, vary according to your audience; a bunch of novices on a sunny day at Bedford need a different emphasis to a mixed group of trackdayers and racers on a wet day at Cadwell.
3) Getting different groups joining the track throughout the day makes it impossible to carry out sighting laps without interruptions and it means that some drivers will be getting well up to pace while others are just finding their way round. All organisers will take care of briefings for late arrivals but it isn't something that makes the day run any better.
4) If you ask anyone to add up the overall cost of a trackday including fuel, consumables, breakages etc it usually comes to 2-3 times the entry fee, getting there for 8am is worth the effort for most drivers.

QBee

Original Poster:

20,905 posts

143 months

Sunday 13th April 2014
quotequote all
Jerry Can said:
I was at an evening track day on Thursday but you must have been at a different circuit as the one i was at went very smoothly. But there again the organiser is pretty laid back and on occasions during the evening it resembled more of a test session than a track day. But that could have been down to the number of competition cars there.

There are however certain things that annoy me about TDO's - even though in most instances it will be something to do with insurance implications as to why they do them.

Firstly - the briefing. I know the TDO may be taking his 10000th briefing but you'd think they know the words off by heart. And also give the briefing a bit of 'energy' When, I wonder will the TDO industry create a video to be run to say a 10 min length that covers all the points - eg flags, overtaking rules etc etc. If this was done, you could then quite legitimately run the video every 30 mins to allow the stragglers to complete the briefing. This would have many advantages:

1) fewer people at a time in the briefing, therefore a smaller room could be used and the audience would be more able to hear and ask questions
2) having a briefing every 30 mins would mean that punters track day enthusiasts could choose a later start time as some may have a distance to travel. Everybody who has ever done a track day knows that you are not going to go on track at 9am and drive round and round until 5pm. So if you started later you could have less chit chat and still get the same driving time.
3) Staggered starts would probably mean fewer early doors spins or session stoppages as there would be fewer cars on track, therefore fewer chances of cars dropping oil etc.
4) Having multiple (video) briefings means that sign on is less of a scrum, makes the whole event more relaxed which probably would have a positive effect on the whole psychology of the day.

Also I think the industry is going to have to mandate a standard briefing video as they currently vary a great deal in terms of content, delivery and things missed out etc.

So come on TDO's modernise your business and provide a more engaging means of explaining the safety and also the routine of the day.
Spot on. Agree 100%. That would make real sense.
I find I, like many, have had enough track time by 3.15. But getting up at 5am to get myself out of the house and ready to drive the 100 miles to Snetterton or Bedford, or even further to Brands, so as to be at whatever track by 0730 takes some of the fun out of the day. I then have to change all four wheels, adjust the dampers to track settings and check all levels, and get noise tested, all before the 0800 briefing.
I would much rather clock in at 1000, and run up to 4.30 instead. It's the sighting laps that are then the issue, but excuse me, I tend to go to the same three tracks and always take my first two laps out of the pits with a modicum of common sense to test the track and warm up the car, driver and tyres. How about a "been there, done that" badge for seasoned campaigners that would make this work, by exempting us from sighting laps if we want to make a later start. It's not as if the TDOs don't have computer records.

My other suggestion to TDOs is to allow more half day bookings. You'd make a lot more money that way. I would happily pay 2/3rds of the full day fee for a half day. Last time at Bedford I did a full day and covered a full grand prix distance. After the 5am start and 100 mile drive to get there, I actually had to stop three times on the way home to wake myself up. A later start, or a half day, would have suited me much better.

Steve H

5,225 posts

194 months

Sunday 13th April 2014
quotequote all
QBee said:
I would much rather clock in at 1000, and run up to 4.30 instead. It's the sighting laps that are then the issue, but excuse me, I tend to go to the same three tracks and always take my first two laps out of the pits with a modicum of common sense to test the track and warm up the car, driver and tyres. How about a "been there, done that" badge for seasoned campaigners that would make this work, by exempting us from sighting laps if we want to make a later start. It's not as if the TDOs don't have computer records.
The system doesn't encourage it for the reasons I've suggested above but you can do this, just turn up late.


QBee said:
My other suggestion to TDOs is to allow more half day bookings. You'd make a lot more money that way. I would happily pay 2/3rds of the full day fee for a half day. Last time at Bedford I did a full day and covered a full grand prix distance. After the 5am start and 100 mile drive to get there, I actually had to stop three times on the way home to wake myself up. A later start, or a half day, would have suited me much better.
TDOs wouldn't make more money, they'd make less money.

Nobody wants a 1/2 day in the morning so if they sell 10 afternoon places they have to turn away ten full day slots to avoid over booking the day. If the event doesn't fill they are sometimes willing to do a half day rate and some will sneak a couple of PM sessions in on the basis that something is bound to break down in the morning making a bit of space but a lot of trackdays need to exceed 90% capacity just to cover costs - they can't afford to have empty spaces in the morning sessions.


QBee

Original Poster:

20,905 posts

143 months

Sunday 13th April 2014
quotequote all
Thanks Steve, interesting comments.

No, I won't turn up at 10.00. Old fashioned manners, I guess.
But I take on board what you say about half days.

By the way, previous poster, my evening session had no race prepped cars (other than the Mini whose transport rudely blocked the pit fire lane for their own convenience unloading, and I never saw the car on track). So I wasn't on the same one as you.

Steve H

5,225 posts

194 months

Sunday 13th April 2014
quotequote all
The 10 o'clock thing really isn't a big issue, if it makes you more comfortable then give them a call a day or two before the event and ask when their late briefings are, it's rare that it would cause any problem.