Discussion
Steve H said:
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Jerry, briefings do vary but they should generally include the same basic content as liabilities need to be covered, anyone not including the accepted standard items is a legal time bomb in my view. Some people are naturally entertaining public speakers and others aren't, I always feel my briefings are too dry but I'm there to keep people listening and get the information over, I try to give it energy but for belly-laughs you'd have to go somewhere else I'm afraid
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Steve, not sure which TDO you run but it's good to hear that you're focused on getting the info across rather than trying to get a laugh. It feels like too many tdo's are ring to be funny and missing important parts of the briefing. Jerry, briefings do vary but they should generally include the same basic content as liabilities need to be covered, anyone not including the accepted standard items is a legal time bomb in my view. Some people are naturally entertaining public speakers and others aren't, I always feel my briefings are too dry but I'm there to keep people listening and get the information over, I try to give it energy but for belly-laughs you'd have to go somewhere else I'm afraid
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The bit that seems to be getting less and less attention in briefings is the courtesy shown to quicker cars - I.e indicate AND lift off the throttle to allow them past rather than block for lap after lap.
As the owner of a car with low (ish) power but high cornering speed it would be good if this was at least mentioned in all briefings.
I agree with you. The rest of each briefing is pretty well covered, but the overtaking rules are getting vaguer and vaguer, and there will be a messy accident before long.
On my last TD the briefer, when prompted by us, managed to say overtake on the left. They managed to say don't do a last minute dive down the inside into a corner (that really appalled me - the briefing should have made it clear that overtaking was on the straights, by consent, ideally with the car in front indicating right, and nowhere near corners). Luckily for the TDO, only 5% of the punters were new to the track, and all had done a TD before.......which actually rendered the briefing almost pointless. We all knew how to behave, luckily, and showed it on track.
Flags and overtaking are the main things that matter on track. You would like to think the TDO could get those right. I was, and still am, disappointed. I might just sit at the front and record the next one.
On my last TD the briefer, when prompted by us, managed to say overtake on the left. They managed to say don't do a last minute dive down the inside into a corner (that really appalled me - the briefing should have made it clear that overtaking was on the straights, by consent, ideally with the car in front indicating right, and nowhere near corners). Luckily for the TDO, only 5% of the punters were new to the track, and all had done a TD before.......which actually rendered the briefing almost pointless. We all knew how to behave, luckily, and showed it on track.
Flags and overtaking are the main things that matter on track. You would like to think the TDO could get those right. I was, and still am, disappointed. I might just sit at the front and record the next one.
MR2_SC said:
Steve, not sure which TDO you run but it's good to hear that you're focused on getting the info across rather than trying to get a laugh. It feels like too many tdo's are ring to be funny and missing important parts of the briefing.
Cheers, I think the briefing is a very important part of the day, setting the tone for how things will be run but however it's done there is some basic information that should be put over.My TDO is
we only run a two or three days a year so nothing big scale and just a hobby business really but as we aren't trying to make a living out of it we can afford to run sensible priced days and attempt to keep a friendly club feel to it all.ETA
you know it's deemed as advertising!Edited by Big Al. on Friday 25th April 22:51
Yep, got to love Cadwell 
A bunch of us were there a couple of weeks ago - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUCBPd8I6aM
Fantastic circuit that tends to get overlooked, we will be offering free instruction on our day and it's highly recommended, especially for any first timers!
A bunch of us were there a couple of weeks ago - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUCBPd8I6aM
Fantastic circuit that tends to get overlooked, we will be offering free instruction on our day and it's highly recommended, especially for any first timers!
Steve H said:
Yep, got to love Cadwell
Fantastic circuit that tends to get overlooked,
Far from a first timer, but it is my nearest (if you ignore Donington) circuit and probably my favourite apart from Snetterton, which has those lovely warm pit garages for when outdoor conditions are a bit dodgy. The Cadwell corners are wonderful, as they give you so much back when you are brave enough to go into them that bit faster (Coppice particularly springs to mind). As a circuit it really focusses the mind on what matters in a track day car - handling and brakes, not top speed.Fantastic circuit that tends to get overlooked,
I will book as soon as I can be sure I will be available. Thanks.
On a different note, I just copied this from a feature on a luxury track day at Spa currently on PH - sums up the average first 90 minutes of a UK track day perfectly for me. I am sure you can improve on it!! I just wish the other TDOs would
"You'll know the drill. Sparrow's fart start, even with the luxury of a nearby Travelodge. The all-too familiar briefing in a draughty portacabin cradling grey, tasteless tea in a polystyrene cup and the aftertaste of a greasy, overpriced bacon roll. Skinned knuckles in the car park as you change your wheels over, eying up the inevitable Herberts in a caged eBay special you just know are going to be pulling that desperate dive into the braking zone before spinning off in front of you. Surely there has to be a better way?"
My normal rule of thumb is to not bother too much about getting on the circuit within the first hour. Always heavy traffic and maniacs who forget they are there for the whole day and go full pelt straight into the first gravel trap. The most enjoyable parts of the day are 3-5PM when you can almost have the circuit to yourself. I have done Silverstone GP, Snett 300, Bedford etc. and towards the end of the day it is like I have a private circuit. Most enjoyable.
IronFire said:
My normal rule of thumb is to not bother too much about getting on the circuit within the first hour. Always heavy traffic and maniacs who forget they are there for the whole day and go full pelt straight into the first gravel trap. The most enjoyable parts of the day are 3-5PM when you can almost have the circuit to yourself. I have done Silverstone GP, Snett 300, Bedford etc. and towards the end of the day it is like I have a private circuit. Most enjoyable.
I think the loony content of the first hour has reduced over the years but I know what you mean about the last hour, the video I posted above was from about 4.15 with almost clear lapping 
.QB, would be good to have you along, bring your friends, all of them
, we usually run at Oulton in November so this is a bit of a change for us and I'm hoping we can cover the costs 
I hope that I can run the day so it works as well as it sounds on here
Edited by Steve H on Friday 25th April 20:09
QBee said:
On a different note, I just copied this from a feature on a luxury track day at Spa currently on PH - sums up the average first 90 minutes of a UK track day perfectly for me. I am sure you can improve on it!! I just wish the other TDOs would
"You'll know the drill. Sparrow's fart start, even with the luxury of a nearby Travelodge. The all-too familiar briefing in a draughty portacabin cradling grey, tasteless tea in a polystyrene cup and the aftertaste of a greasy, overpriced bacon roll. Skinned knuckles in the car park as you change your wheels over, eying up the inevitable Herberts in a caged eBay special you just know are going to be pulling that desperate dive into the braking zone before spinning off in front of you. Surely there has to be a better way?"
While that might be description of a cheap track day, it certainly doesn't apply to all TDOs. Can't say I recognize the scenario myself."You'll know the drill. Sparrow's fart start, even with the luxury of a nearby Travelodge. The all-too familiar briefing in a draughty portacabin cradling grey, tasteless tea in a polystyrene cup and the aftertaste of a greasy, overpriced bacon roll. Skinned knuckles in the car park as you change your wheels over, eying up the inevitable Herberts in a caged eBay special you just know are going to be pulling that desperate dive into the braking zone before spinning off in front of you. Surely there has to be a better way?"
QBee said:
On my last TD the briefer, when prompted by us, managed to say overtake on the left. They managed to say don't do a last minute dive down the inside into a corner (that really appalled me - the briefing should have made it clear that overtaking was on the straights, by consent, ideally with the car in front indicating right, and nowhere near corners).
Would you also like a text confirmation of permission to overtake?Why not just go with the slower car pulls to the right and the faster car passes on the left.
I would hate to think I held a faster car up though a section of corners just because of a don't over take in corners rule.
I'd pull to the right making it obvious he can go past, then get back to what I was doing.
People seem to want loads of rules, when a little common sense would do.
You've got 80 people in a briefing, do you want to risk your pride and joy on the fact that all 80 of them have a surplus of common sense and will apply it consistently throughout the day without guidance?
I do understand what you are saying, but while the briefing is given to everybody, it should be particularly tailored towards the special few who need it the most .
I do understand what you are saying, but while the briefing is given to everybody, it should be particularly tailored towards the special few who need it the most
.Unfortunately common sense is a pretty rare commodity.
While I might let someone through on a corner, I need to decide to let them through, and in order to do that, I need to a) have seen them coming, and b) altered my approach and speed to allow that.
When someone in (say) a radical on race wets comes up behind a regular road car, they might think it's going so slowly it has all the options in the world, while said car is right on tiptoes. Maybe the roadcar turns in a bit late on that left hander (which my radical takes as an invitation), maybe they're so absorbed in trying to drive their car they have not got the mental capacity to notice the radical appear (not at all uncommon, especially if fairly new).. suddenly there's a pretty expensive crunch going on.
It's not a formula 1 qualifying session, the world won't end if someone has to wait a couple of corners..
While I might let someone through on a corner, I need to decide to let them through, and in order to do that, I need to a) have seen them coming, and b) altered my approach and speed to allow that.
When someone in (say) a radical on race wets comes up behind a regular road car, they might think it's going so slowly it has all the options in the world, while said car is right on tiptoes. Maybe the roadcar turns in a bit late on that left hander (which my radical takes as an invitation), maybe they're so absorbed in trying to drive their car they have not got the mental capacity to notice the radical appear (not at all uncommon, especially if fairly new).. suddenly there's a pretty expensive crunch going on.
It's not a formula 1 qualifying session, the world won't end if someone has to wait a couple of corners..
upsidedownmark said:
Unfortunately common sense is a pretty rare commodity.
While I might let someone through on a corner, I need to decide to let them through, and in order to do that, I need to a) have seen them coming, and b) altered my approach and speed to allow that.
When someone in (say) a radical on race wets comes up behind a regular road car, they might think it's going so slowly it has all the options in the world, while said car is right on tiptoes. Maybe the roadcar turns in a bit late on that left hander (which my radical takes as an invitation), maybe they're so absorbed in trying to drive their car they have not got the mental capacity to notice the radical appear (not at all uncommon, especially if fairly new).. suddenly there's a pretty expensive crunch going on.
It's not a formula 1 qualifying session, the world won't end if someone has to wait a couple of corners..
Amen to all of that. Coincidentally, I was at a MSE day at Castle Combe last Friday in what could only be described as dreadful conditions, with puddles everywhere and no break in the rain all day. Also coincidentally, I was out in my Radical on Race Wets (only my second outing in it!) and the difference in grip available was enormous. It was interesting to watch some very well driven cars slipping and sliding at very modest speeds, while I was probably a gear down on what I wanted to be and just cruising around waiting for the exit of the corner before going by. That the other drivers saw me without any lights on (because there aren't any at the front!) was a testament to their competence in the awful conditions and the briefing at the start of the day was very clear about the rules and the consequences of breaking them. It isn't Health and Safety gone mad, it is a sensible requirement at a track day, where the speed and ability differences are going to be massive. Being held up for a whole lap does wind me up, but it winds me up a lot less that the overdraft I would need to repair my car if the communication between me and another driver breaks down!While I might let someone through on a corner, I need to decide to let them through, and in order to do that, I need to a) have seen them coming, and b) altered my approach and speed to allow that.
When someone in (say) a radical on race wets comes up behind a regular road car, they might think it's going so slowly it has all the options in the world, while said car is right on tiptoes. Maybe the roadcar turns in a bit late on that left hander (which my radical takes as an invitation), maybe they're so absorbed in trying to drive their car they have not got the mental capacity to notice the radical appear (not at all uncommon, especially if fairly new).. suddenly there's a pretty expensive crunch going on.
It's not a formula 1 qualifying session, the world won't end if someone has to wait a couple of corners..
teabagger said:
QBee said:
On my last TD the briefer, when prompted by us, managed to say overtake on the left. They managed to say don't do a last minute dive down the inside into a corner (that really appalled me - the briefing should have made it clear that overtaking was on the straights, by consent, ideally with the car in front indicating right, and nowhere near corners).
Would you also like a text confirmation of permission to overtake?I did a track day last year in the company of a Caterham with no mirrors, and driven at 2/3 of everyone else's speed. He also wandered all over the track without warning. He was an utter nightmare and worst still, the MSV staff weren't interested when I drew it to their attention.
For me its both TD organisers fault AND the customer...heres my feelings,after doing over 40 trackdays.
1. The TD organisers (in general) take far too long to start the briefing...resulting in getting on track at some venues at 10.30am..which is not on,when we have paid from 9am sighting laps. (9.30 start on track)
2. Idiots who turn up late or mess about with their cars when the TD organiser is waiting for them to get over to the briefing. (does my head in too)get there on time,and stop moaning about less track time,because it is YOU who have caused it!
3. Once again,people who just sit there and don't get out on the sighting laps...so what if you have to wait in a queue,..we are all waiting for YOU!!...no one likes doing the slow laps,but lets get them done asap and out of the way!
We all pay good money for track days and with fuel costs it aint a cheap day....so get the briefing and sighting laps done and lets have some good long track time...if you want to mess around and faff about with your car (which you should have done before the trackday)..then do it in your own time and not lose tracktime for others.
Rant over....
1. The TD organisers (in general) take far too long to start the briefing...resulting in getting on track at some venues at 10.30am..which is not on,when we have paid from 9am sighting laps. (9.30 start on track)
2. Idiots who turn up late or mess about with their cars when the TD organiser is waiting for them to get over to the briefing. (does my head in too)get there on time,and stop moaning about less track time,because it is YOU who have caused it!
3. Once again,people who just sit there and don't get out on the sighting laps...so what if you have to wait in a queue,..we are all waiting for YOU!!...no one likes doing the slow laps,but lets get them done asap and out of the way!
We all pay good money for track days and with fuel costs it aint a cheap day....so get the briefing and sighting laps done and lets have some good long track time...if you want to mess around and faff about with your car (which you should have done before the trackday)..then do it in your own time and not lose tracktime for others.
Rant over....
Edited by philevo6 on Sunday 4th May 08:51
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