What to do if your car spins on track?

What to do if your car spins on track?

Author
Discussion

wellground

450 posts

183 months

Tuesday 19th August 2014
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To be honest, we should be driving within our capabilities and a spin should be seen as simply running out of talent. Shouldn't we be talking about driving fast and making swift progress within our own ability. Then we can avoid the "What to do if your car spins on track?" question. wink

upsidedownmark

2,120 posts

134 months

Wednesday 20th August 2014
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Of course a spin is running out of talent. How else do you find the edge of your envelope? If you're doing it a lot, you probably need to have a think. If you don't ever come close, you're not trying. If you want to batter on about smooth progress etc., I suggest rospa / IAM / whatever wink

As to the actualities of spinning, my (personal) theories are:

1) if it requires more lock than I can obtain with at least one hand staying on the wheel, let it spin. The in-spin is rarely a big deal, the overcorrected out spin frequently is!
1.25) A significant portion of the 'correction' comes from my feet, not my hands..
1.5) Briefly letting go of the wheel is a very effective way of dialling up the right amount of opposite lock (caster deals with it for you)
1.75) Never come close to hitting anything, but I'd hope to have the presence of mind to let go just before I did.

2) If you don't have ABS, locking all 4 is a handy way of stopping the car spearing off in an unintended direction - with everything locked it tends to go in a decent approximation of a straight line.

3) Clutch in, change down, aim for a full 360 and look cool (remember it steers differently going backwards) cool

Toltec

7,159 posts

222 months

Wednesday 20th August 2014
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I would say brake first to see if you can kill the rotation by making the front slide wide then add the clutch if you are still swapping ends. Probably works better on rwd as this helps the rears keep rotating so they should have more grip than the fronts, it does work on my Impreza as well though never tried it in a fwd.

If you can stop the spin and lose enough speed while still on the tarmac you may be able to recover control and come off the brake. You do have to catch it between the point at which you realise opposite lock is not going to cut it, but before you actually start to spin, i.e rear overtaking the front.


upsidedownmark

2,120 posts

134 months

Wednesday 20th August 2014
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The only time braking (short of locking all 4) is going to stop a spin is if you've induced it by applying too much power (rwd) - and in that case backing off will probably do the trick.

I'd suggest that the vast majority of track spins are caused by an over enthusiastic entry, in which case the very last thing you want to do is go anywhere near the brake pedal - that's a guaranteed spin - normally you need the exact opposite.

Generally speaking, the accelerator/brake are controlling weight transfer - more on the front and it will turn better, more on the rear it will tend to straighten

Of course you can completely over do either - locking up or too much accel and swap ends (again assuming rear wheel drive breaking traction)


Edited by upsidedownmark on Wednesday 20th August 10:15

spyderman8

1,748 posts

155 months

Wednesday 20th August 2014
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wellground said:
To be honest, we should be driving within our capabilities and a spin should be seen as simply running out of talent. Shouldn't we be talking about driving fast and making swift progress within our own ability.
A spin could also be a result of a sudden, unexpected change of surface conditions. The flag marshals sometimes won't know that coolant or fuel has been dropped until a car looses control and/or spins on it.

loggyboy

279 posts

177 months

Wednesday 20th August 2014
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wellground said:
To be honest, we should be driving within our capabilities and a spin should be seen as simply running out of talent. Shouldn't we be talking about driving fast and making swift progress within our own ability. Then we can avoid the "What to do if your car spins on track?" question. wink
Sounds like a road driving principle! The whole idea of track day driving is exploring the limits of the driver, the car and the track in safe as possible environment.



silverthorn2151

6,298 posts

178 months

Wednesday 20th August 2014
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I have always hit brake and clutch as hard as possible when I have spun the Radical. That was mostly in the early days of driving it. I did have a big off at Snetterton through getting one tyre edge on the grass in the run towards Agostini. Turned right pretty sharply and locking up helped. Once it hit on the front left corner it span like a top but as it then left the grass onto the road into the top of the paddock it stopped very quickly as the wheels were locked.

For most of us on here when it's gone, it's gone.

wellground

450 posts

183 months

Wednesday 20th August 2014
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loggyboy said:
Sounds like a road driving principle! The whole idea of track day driving is exploring the limits of the driver, the car and the track in safe as possible environment.
Not at all. You will travel quicker round a track if you are making progress, keeping the car under control and keeping the wheels in line. Explore the limits of the car yes, but a good track driver knows his limits. The other type spin a lot and ruin everyone's day.

wellground

450 posts

183 months

Wednesday 20th August 2014
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upsidedownmark said:
Of course a spin is running out of talent. How else do you find the edge of your envelope? If you're doing it a lot, you probably need to have a think. If you don't ever come close, you're not trying. If you want to batter on about smooth progress etc., I suggest rospa / IAM / whatever wink
We are talking about track days, not test days or qualifying. You should find the edge of your envelope long before you go into a spin. I don't say I don't get close because I do, but I do try to find the edge without spinning. The fastest way around a track is smooth driving with smooth inputs, it doesn't mean you have to be slow. Spinning is just putting your own car and others cars at risk.

wellground

450 posts

183 months

Wednesday 20th August 2014
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spyderman8 said:
A spin could also be a result of a sudden, unexpected change of surface conditions. The flag marshals sometimes won't know that coolant or fuel has been dropped until a car looses control and/or spins on it.
Fair comment, point well made.

loggyboy

279 posts

177 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
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wellground said:
Not at all. You will travel quicker round a track if you are making progress, keeping the car under control and keeping the wheels in line. Explore the limits of the car yes, but a good track driver knows his limits. The other type spin a lot and ruin everyone's day.
Trackdays aren't just about going quicker though, its about having fun. A lot of people will get that fun from pushing those limits. A good driver may know his limits, but a fast driver will be on those limits, and when your on the limits its inevitable to step over them, you can't find your limits without occasionally exceeding them. The key is learning from any mistakes you make.
There are indeed those who spoil it, and jump past their limits rather than building towards them, don't learn (or cant learn), but there are more than just 2 types of track day driver.

hufggfg

654 posts

192 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
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upsidedownmark said:
Of course a spin is running out of talent. How else do you find the edge of your envelope? If you're doing it a lot, you probably need to have a think. If you don't ever come close, you're not trying.
Totally agree with this. There's a big difference between being completely out of control and nearly spinning every corner (I'm sure we've all seen people like this, my personal approach is to just back off/run through the pits once, and let them just get on with their own accident), and progressively exploring the limits of the car, the track and yourself, which will inevitably sometimes result in a spin. Sure it's because you've made a mistake in some way, but unless you push the envelope a bit how are you supposed to know where the limits are?

QBee

20,904 posts

143 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
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hufggfg said:
upsidedownmark said:
Of course a spin is running out of talent. How else do you find the edge of your envelope? If you're doing it a lot, you probably need to have a think. If you don't ever come close, you're not trying.
Totally agree with this. There's a big difference between being completely out of control and nearly spinning every corner (I'm sure we've all seen people like this, my personal approach is to just back off/run through the pits once, and let them just get on with their own accident), and progressively exploring the limits of the car, the track and yourself, which will inevitably sometimes result in a spin. Sure it's because you've made a mistake in some way, but unless you push the envelope a bit how are you supposed to know where the limits are?
Absolutely spot on - and just what I tell people after my third spin of the day an a nice flat open track like Bedford or Snetterton. I have been that soldier, finding out just how far the car can be pushed.
Just not to be recommended on a damp day at Cadwell Park.....all that sloping wet grass and barriers doesn't really give you room to enjoy your spin to the full before remodelling the car.

SpeedyDave

417 posts

225 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
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Floor it. Spins should always be accompanied by manly clouds of tyre smoke, preferably enough to completely obscure the car allowing you to select first and emerge from the cloud as if the whole thing was intentional.


wellground

450 posts

183 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
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It must be me then. In six years of trackdays I have never spun once, I know I am on the limit a lot though. Perhaps I am just too slow for you guys winkI will try and keep up (without spinning)

QBee

20,904 posts

143 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
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I have a good friend who never spins on track, but a sprint day sorted him out! It was a joy to see him spin, to actually take his car beyond the limit in a safe environment. He's back at the sprint track next month, trying to improve his time.


I'm there tomorrow.......trying to improve mine! hehe

wellground

450 posts

183 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
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But I still don't think I need a spin to improve my time.....

QBee

20,904 posts

143 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
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Of course not.....it's only lesser drivers like myself who have to find their limits this way on track days.
I didn't spin on my last track day, or the previous two, so i am getting better, but it's well nigh impossible to be competitive at Curborough on the sprint track without losing the car once or twice in a full day...

I've never had a spin at Cadwell Park, so I still have a car........

GT4EDS

541 posts

197 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
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wellground said:
But I still don't think I need a spin to improve my time.....
Indeed you don't , you just need to know where is the limit smile

now where is the limit ? smile

taking away track days where we shouldn't be looking at best lap times the way to improve your time is to be able to drive all the time at the limit of traction. Now the way to really know if you are at the limit is to go beyond it every now and then. However, that can be a little hard on equipment, unless you are able to go behond the limit and still catch it before you end up in the armco. That's the tricky part. Before you can consistently drive at the limit, you have to be able to drive behond the limit. The limit is what you would call the " ideal slip angle " ( 6 to 7 degrees of slip angle where the tyre is generating its maximumtraction capabilities )
Now driving beyond the limit is driving beyond the " ideal slip angle " where the car is sliding more than what was optimum for maximum traction. This is not the fastest way to drive, but you have to be able to do that before you can really know where the limit is. Once you have driven behind the limit, and kept the car on track somewhere near the ideal line, it is much easier to dial it back a little, back to "at the limit"
If you can't overcompensate, or overdrive a car , you will never be able to drive the limit consistently.
Now as you said that doesn't mean spinning it smile

PS ( so yes if the car is not sliding all the time " at an ideal slip angle " you are not at the limit smile )

Eduardo.



Edited by GT4EDS on Thursday 21st August 21:49

checkmate91

851 posts

172 months

Thursday 21st August 2014
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Mound Dawg said:
Seen too many people do the car equivalent of a highside and pile the opposite lock on and back off only for the rear end to grip again and they spear off into the tyres/armco.

So it's brakes and clutch for me once I know it's not going to come back.
Kimi at Silverstone might call you on that.