What to do if your car spins on track?
Discussion
Interesting topic. I had one big spin at the 'ring (after stupidly swapping tyres F&R) but I was too busy cacking my pants to remember what I did as it snapped round at 100+mph.
I've also had a spin in the wet at Brands (Paddock Hill) where the back end overtook the front and no amount of lock / throttle could save it. I do remember what I did as it was soaking so there was much more time to think. I just let it go round, dipped the clutch but kept my hands on the wheel and foot off the brakes as there was a car right behind me; once it was facing backwards I straightened up, braked lightly and guided it out of the way in to the gravel.
I've seen what happens when you don't let go of the wheel in the dry first-hand at DN10, where a spinning M3 suddenly gripped and steered in to the Armco at a still pretty high speed. But my spin at Brands was much more sedate, so is it a case of horses for courses, where some spins are OK to steer out of and some (I assume higher speeds and / or in the dry) should just be left feet in and hands off?
I've also had a spin in the wet at Brands (Paddock Hill) where the back end overtook the front and no amount of lock / throttle could save it. I do remember what I did as it was soaking so there was much more time to think. I just let it go round, dipped the clutch but kept my hands on the wheel and foot off the brakes as there was a car right behind me; once it was facing backwards I straightened up, braked lightly and guided it out of the way in to the gravel.
I've seen what happens when you don't let go of the wheel in the dry first-hand at DN10, where a spinning M3 suddenly gripped and steered in to the Armco at a still pretty high speed. But my spin at Brands was much more sedate, so is it a case of horses for courses, where some spins are OK to steer out of and some (I assume higher speeds and / or in the dry) should just be left feet in and hands off?
I have seen a lot of spins due to over correcting the first oversteer (spin). The other spins i have seen was people running out of track (probably due to an early turn-in and apex)ending with a couple of wheels into the dirt or grass off the edge of the track. If you do, the first thing to do is straighten the front wheels and drive straight ahead, even if that means driving towards a wall for a few seconds. What it does it allows you time to get the car slowed down and back under control. If you try to steer the car back on the track immediately, you will most likely end up with the two front wheels back on the track and only one rear on. This usually results in a quick spin back across the track, quite often into an other car. Or, if the wheels catch the edge of the track at a wrong angle, it may actually trip the car, causing it to roll over. So keep the front wheels pointing straight until you get the car back in control. Don't panic and " jerk" the car back on the track. It won't work. Proof below ( friend of mine at Cadwell )
Eduardo.
Eduardo.
wellground said:
But I still don't think I need a spin to improve my time.....
Interesting perspective, this. Unless you're pootling around at 90% the whole time there will inevitably be a moment when you over-step the mark - whether that be down to a momentary lapse in concentration, a change in car / track conditions, avoiding an incident, or just plain going in too hot. I think if you have never had to deal with a spin you will find yourself at a disadvantage because you have never had to learn from that mistake. I'm not saying go out and spin immediately to make yourself a better driver, but I think you should climb down just a little bit and not be so quick to lecture / judge those who have stepped a bit closer to the edge than you're willing to. I'm firmly in the camp where a spin is an inevitable consequence of exploring the limits. Even the F1 boys get it wrong from time to time. A lot of drivers enjoy getting the maximum out of their cars, and to find that point you have got to know what it's like to go beyond. Having tales of the odd spin doesn't make them poor or dangerous drivers like you seem to be hinting.
CamMoreRon said:
wellground said:
But I still don't think I need a spin to improve my time.....
Interesting perspective, this. Unless you're pootling around at 90% the whole time there will inevitably be a moment when you over-step the mark - whether that be down to a momentary lapse in concentration, a change in car / track conditions, avoiding an incident, or just plain going in too hot. I think if you have never had to deal with a spin you will find yourself at a disadvantage because you have never had to learn from that mistake. I'm not saying go out and spin immediately to make yourself a better driver, but I think you should climb down just a little bit and not be so quick to lecture / judge those who have stepped a bit closer to the edge than you're willing to. I'm firmly in the camp where a spin is an inevitable consequence of exploring the limits. Even the F1 boys get it wrong from time to time. A lot of drivers enjoy getting the maximum out of their cars, and to find that point you have got to know what it's like to go beyond. Having tales of the odd spin doesn't make them poor or dangerous drivers like you seem to be hinting.
I was afraid of braking later because the car was getting unstable.
But eventually it was necessary to simply try it, no matter what happens.
At this point there was enough free space next to the track, so it was not dangerous even if I would go off the track.
So I did it and guess what happened ... ;-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0nsMGDbRss
Not sure I should post this... but then why the hell not 
Me f
king it up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zraBp28HVUg
...and again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F5KyPUpl6Q
Sometimes you can even catch it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3oo3-THCQM
The rears had canvas showing on them at that point
It happens... I'd like to blame a lot of it on early days with the car and running shagged slicks. They really didn't do it any favours, but this is before we found a friendly race team to get good part worns from. But it's of course all also my own fault.
Contrary to the above evidence, this doesn't actually happen very often... Honest.
Me f
king it up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zraBp28HVUg...and again: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F5KyPUpl6Q
Sometimes you can even catch it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3oo3-THCQM
The rears had canvas showing on them at that point
It happens... I'd like to blame a lot of it on early days with the car and running shagged slicks. They really didn't do it any favours, but this is before we found a friendly race team to get good part worns from. But it's of course all also my own fault.
Contrary to the above evidence, this doesn't actually happen very often... Honest.
Edited by juansolo on Sunday 24th August 21:28
CamMoreRon said:
I'm not saying go out and spin immediately to make yourself a better driver, but I think you should climb down just a little bit and not be so quick to lecture / judge those who have stepped a bit closer to the edge than you're willing to.
I'm firmly in the camp where a spin is an inevitable consequence of exploring the limits. Even the F1 boys get it wrong from time to time. A lot of drivers enjoy getting the maximum out of their cars, and to find that point you have got to know what it's like to go beyond. Having tales of the odd spin doesn't make them poor or dangerous drivers like you seem to be hinting.
On the contrary, I do drive to the limit, I have gone off track, I regularly get the car loose and it steps out on me often, but I have never spun on track. Despite your unkind suggestion that I judge and lecture, I don't consider I do. I find it annoying that some people drive beyond their limit at the risk of damage or injury to the rest of us.I'm firmly in the camp where a spin is an inevitable consequence of exploring the limits. Even the F1 boys get it wrong from time to time. A lot of drivers enjoy getting the maximum out of their cars, and to find that point you have got to know what it's like to go beyond. Having tales of the odd spin doesn't make them poor or dangerous drivers like you seem to be hinting.
F1 drivers go over their limits. It's a blooming Grand Prix FFS, they are trying to win. They are not on a track day.....
I think better track day drivers do know their limits, they are able to drive fast and not spin. I don't consider myself slow on a track day, on most days I am one of the quicker drivers on track and I try not to endanger others with my driving. I will probably spin now (because I said that I don't spin LOL). I am very happy to step as close to the edge as most, but I prefer to stay within my own personal ability limits and not endanger others.
I've been doing this a long time, and though spins are rare, they do happen when you're pushing. This can be for many reasons. For us, by the end of the day, the part worn slicks we use go-off and the back goes loose. It's actually quite easy to gauge when that's happening now (tend to get wheel spin and slides out of corners where normally it'd grip and go) as the balance of the car changes. But adding to that, surface changes, aquaplaning, debris on track, etc, all of these things will alter the level of grip available and it doesn't take much to affect the balance of the car and throw you a bit sideways. The trick to dealing with these limits is knowing where they are, knowing what the car is doing and knowing how to deal with it when it happens. To get to the point that it's instinctual and you don't even need to think about it just takes practice.
In the early days that meant going to an airfield and driving intentionally sideways, and inevitably meant spinning occasionally. This is the only way you learn when to call it a day and put both feet in. It's a split second decision that can end in tears if you try and catch something that isn't catchable any more (commonly referred to as over-correcting...) and it sends you poling off in a completely other direction. Essentially out of control. However in the maybe three times I've spun the Juno in six years (two of which are above), I've never been a complete passenger in the spin, if you see what I mean. You always have say in what's going on even when you've gone too far.
I've more videos, this one is particularly dull, but gives you an example of things that can happen. This was in-between torrential rain at Siverstone. When it's raining it's no problem, when it's dry it's no problem. When it's patchy, then we have issues and are slowest of all (we don't have any inters). Two things happen on this lap (other than me dawdling around); firstly I get a rear end lock up braking into the chicane after the Hanger Straight (You can tell as the revs drop). There's a surface change there and with the changing conditions, it just happened. The second is the rear spinning up out of the big right that goes onto the old start/finish straight. Again, patchy track makes it difficult to gauge grip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjd_J6Am4JA
Finally I thought I'd post a decent lap. It's later in the day so the grip is starting to go, hence the lift on Eau Rouge and Blanchimont. Early in the day they're flat and we're approx 2-3 secs a lap faster. Still way off the pace of a nice fresh Juno on nice tyres with someone who knows how to pedal it. But hey, it's a track day, we're not racing and we're not pushing *that* hard. See despite the above, we're running that car on an absolute shoestring. Neither of us can afford to crash it. Indeed when we fried the wiring loom in it, it crucified the track day budget for an entire year getting a new one made and fixing the other problems it caused. So we're not driving at 10/10ths. Yet still both of us have spun it 2 to 3 times each. What I'm trying to say is that st happens, and it helps to be equipped to deal with it when it does.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJJKOLCxkZQ
In the early days that meant going to an airfield and driving intentionally sideways, and inevitably meant spinning occasionally. This is the only way you learn when to call it a day and put both feet in. It's a split second decision that can end in tears if you try and catch something that isn't catchable any more (commonly referred to as over-correcting...) and it sends you poling off in a completely other direction. Essentially out of control. However in the maybe three times I've spun the Juno in six years (two of which are above), I've never been a complete passenger in the spin, if you see what I mean. You always have say in what's going on even when you've gone too far.
I've more videos, this one is particularly dull, but gives you an example of things that can happen. This was in-between torrential rain at Siverstone. When it's raining it's no problem, when it's dry it's no problem. When it's patchy, then we have issues and are slowest of all (we don't have any inters). Two things happen on this lap (other than me dawdling around); firstly I get a rear end lock up braking into the chicane after the Hanger Straight (You can tell as the revs drop). There's a surface change there and with the changing conditions, it just happened. The second is the rear spinning up out of the big right that goes onto the old start/finish straight. Again, patchy track makes it difficult to gauge grip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjd_J6Am4JA
Finally I thought I'd post a decent lap. It's later in the day so the grip is starting to go, hence the lift on Eau Rouge and Blanchimont. Early in the day they're flat and we're approx 2-3 secs a lap faster. Still way off the pace of a nice fresh Juno on nice tyres with someone who knows how to pedal it. But hey, it's a track day, we're not racing and we're not pushing *that* hard. See despite the above, we're running that car on an absolute shoestring. Neither of us can afford to crash it. Indeed when we fried the wiring loom in it, it crucified the track day budget for an entire year getting a new one made and fixing the other problems it caused. So we're not driving at 10/10ths. Yet still both of us have spun it 2 to 3 times each. What I'm trying to say is that s
t happens, and it helps to be equipped to deal with it when it does.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJJKOLCxkZQ
Edited by juansolo on Monday 25th August 09:56
@wellground:
I don't know why you distinguish between going off the track and spining the car.
In both cases you do something wrong and lose control.
For me personally, one should distinguish between the situations when you are losing control.
This, what I showed in the video was intentionally.
Not that I intended to spin, but I did brake later than usual, accepting all possible consequences.
But in this place, there was enough room to go off the track, and I didn't do it when other cars have been too close to me.
On the same track, there are two other corners where I am still too slow.
One has only four metres of green between the curb and the crash barrier, there I will not do any experiments.
But at the other one, I will take the knife between the teeth, the next time, and try to get through this corner faster.
Losing control then, is quite predetermined ;-)
Another reason for losing control is bad luck, like oil or cooling liquid on the track.
And the third reason is, that you lose control through a driving error, but unexpected.
This can be potentially dangerous, because you dont't decide where and when it can happen.
I personally try to avoid this on track days or during training, by taking out the pressure a little bit when I am close to other cars or in dangerous corners.
To get back to the topic a little bit, I find it very useful to train this "getting back control over your car".
I went to several drift trainings when I started driving on the race track.
It is much more probable to avoid a spin at all plus you getting a better feeling how to influence the trajectory of your car, when it is not headed in the direction in which it is moving ;-)
I have two approaches to spinning with the car ;-)
When it is a "slow spin", where I just missed to catch the car (happened to me sometimes in the wet), then I only press the clutch and catch the car after 180 degrees of turning. Then I let it roll backwards and turn over.
Otherwise, I press clutch and brake and release the brake when the car is heading in the preferred direction.
And then I drive on and hope that nobody noticed it ;-)
I don't know why you distinguish between going off the track and spining the car.
In both cases you do something wrong and lose control.
For me personally, one should distinguish between the situations when you are losing control.
This, what I showed in the video was intentionally.
Not that I intended to spin, but I did brake later than usual, accepting all possible consequences.
But in this place, there was enough room to go off the track, and I didn't do it when other cars have been too close to me.
On the same track, there are two other corners where I am still too slow.
One has only four metres of green between the curb and the crash barrier, there I will not do any experiments.
But at the other one, I will take the knife between the teeth, the next time, and try to get through this corner faster.
Losing control then, is quite predetermined ;-)
Another reason for losing control is bad luck, like oil or cooling liquid on the track.
And the third reason is, that you lose control through a driving error, but unexpected.
This can be potentially dangerous, because you dont't decide where and when it can happen.
I personally try to avoid this on track days or during training, by taking out the pressure a little bit when I am close to other cars or in dangerous corners.
To get back to the topic a little bit, I find it very useful to train this "getting back control over your car".
I went to several drift trainings when I started driving on the race track.
It is much more probable to avoid a spin at all plus you getting a better feeling how to influence the trajectory of your car, when it is not headed in the direction in which it is moving ;-)
I have two approaches to spinning with the car ;-)
When it is a "slow spin", where I just missed to catch the car (happened to me sometimes in the wet), then I only press the clutch and catch the car after 180 degrees of turning. Then I let it roll backwards and turn over.
Otherwise, I press clutch and brake and release the brake when the car is heading in the preferred direction.
And then I drive on and hope that nobody noticed it ;-)
Edited by osmiumOs76 on Monday 25th August 23:31
Edited by osmiumOs76 on Monday 25th August 23:31
All good stuff but says to me that "road car only" days are the way to go for me at least, mainly because my car is a road car. Now, it has a reasonable Nordschleife time (8:25) but (and I've chased mini cooper S's around Snetterton) Im not interested in finding the point of no return, just clean lines and power up the straights. I'm also perfectly happy to indicate right and let the faster stuff go past.
Not sure why you think a road car only track day will be any different? Most of us are driving roadcars.
Personally, I don't quite understand why anyone would go to a track just to drive fast down the straights, to me the entire joy is learning and perfecting the car control. Each to their own, but I suspect not going at the corners is a minority camp.
As to spinning, also remember that all cars are very different before making too many judgments. Some are considerably more knife edged in their balance than others. If you're genuinely on the limit of your car and never spun, it's probably a) front wheel drive, and b) very nose lead.
@wellground: Frankly, none of my spins have put myself, my car or anyone else's at risk. You pick and choose the points where you're really on it, and when you need to back off that extra percent or two because there's someone near you, some armco, etc. Nor are you a complete passenger in a spin - you don't just stop driving the car because it's rotating.
I don't hold with the test day/qualifying argument either. Test days are for racers to test, qualifying is part of a race. Track days are non-competitive, hence the timing restriction, but they're there for you to drive your car as hard as you like (so long as you don't endanger anyone else), they are not a (just) parade without a speed limit.
Personally, I don't quite understand why anyone would go to a track just to drive fast down the straights, to me the entire joy is learning and perfecting the car control. Each to their own, but I suspect not going at the corners is a minority camp.
As to spinning, also remember that all cars are very different before making too many judgments. Some are considerably more knife edged in their balance than others. If you're genuinely on the limit of your car and never spun, it's probably a) front wheel drive, and b) very nose lead.
@wellground: Frankly, none of my spins have put myself, my car or anyone else's at risk. You pick and choose the points where you're really on it, and when you need to back off that extra percent or two because there's someone near you, some armco, etc. Nor are you a complete passenger in a spin - you don't just stop driving the car because it's rotating.
I don't hold with the test day/qualifying argument either. Test days are for racers to test, qualifying is part of a race. Track days are non-competitive, hence the timing restriction, but they're there for you to drive your car as hard as you like (so long as you don't endanger anyone else), they are not a (just) parade without a speed limit.
wellground said:
On the contrary, I do drive to the limit, I have gone off track, I regularly get the car loose and it steps out on me often, but I have never spun on track. Despite your unkind suggestion that I judge and lecture, I don't consider I do. I find it annoying that some people drive beyond their limit at the risk of damage or injury to the rest of us.
F1 drivers go over their limits. It's a blooming Grand Prix FFS, they are trying to win. They are not on a track day.....
I think better track day drivers do know their limits, they are able to drive fast and not spin. I don't consider myself slow on a track day, on most days I am one of the quicker drivers on track and I try not to endanger others with my driving. I will probably spin now (because I said that I don't spin LOL). I am very happy to step as close to the edge as most, but I prefer to stay within my own personal ability limits and not endanger others.
I think there's an important difference between "pushing your limit" and "driving beyond your limit" that you might be overlooking. Pushing your limit implies that you're tentatively trying to go that little bit beyond your comfort zone in certain places that you suspect you could be faster, in an effort to improve your driving. Driving beyond your limit is just plain driving too fast for your own ability.F1 drivers go over their limits. It's a blooming Grand Prix FFS, they are trying to win. They are not on a track day.....
I think better track day drivers do know their limits, they are able to drive fast and not spin. I don't consider myself slow on a track day, on most days I am one of the quicker drivers on track and I try not to endanger others with my driving. I will probably spin now (because I said that I don't spin LOL). I am very happy to step as close to the edge as most, but I prefer to stay within my own personal ability limits and not endanger others.
The former will inevitably lead to a mistake now and then; whether it's a little wobble, running wide, or a snap spin depends on the conditions and the balance of your car. Those mistakes don't necessarily mean you're being irresponsible.
The more seasoned drivers will have had more of these learning experiences, I would bet! They know their limits, their car, and the track a lot better than the majority, so it's understandable that their mistakes will be fewer and further between. But I have seen seasoned drivers get it wrong (Britcar Leon at Oulton Park springs to mind) in a big way, too.
upsidedownmark said:
Personally, I don't quite understand why anyone would go to a track just to drive fast down the straights, to me the entire joy is learning and perfecting the car control. Each to their own, but I suspect not going at the corners is a minority camp.
As to spinning, also remember that all cars are very different before making too many judgments. Some are considerably more knife edged in their balance than others. If you're genuinely on the limit of your car and never spun, it's probably a) front wheel drive, and b) very nose lead.
Very good points. The whole part of a track day for me is perfecting the lap. Taking the corners and stringing them together in the fastest, neatest way possible!As to spinning, also remember that all cars are very different before making too many judgments. Some are considerably more knife edged in their balance than others. If you're genuinely on the limit of your car and never spun, it's probably a) front wheel drive, and b) very nose lead.
Very true about car balance and limit behaviour, too. Some cars will push at the limit, some will snap round. You can bet that drivers of the former will have had far fewer spins than the latter!
Edited by CamMoreRon on Tuesday 26th August 09:02
checkmate91 said:
All good stuff but says to me that "road car only" days are the way to go for me at least, mainly because my car is a road car. Now, it has a reasonable Nordschleife time (8:25) but (and I've chased mini cooper S's around Snetterton) Im not interested in finding the point of no return, just clean lines and power up the straights. I'm also perfectly happy to indicate right and let the faster stuff go past.
I also don't believe the road cars only thing is necessary. I love the variety at a track day. When I used to do it in an MX-5 I had no issues mixing with Caterhams and Radicals. I think it keeps things interesting and it keeps you alert. Fast cars can get past you very quickly indeed and shouldn't ruin anything for you. If both parties are courteous and observant then it shouldn't make any difference an LMP2 car and a Fiat Punto sharing the track. It just takes common sense.For example, in a quick car you can see who you're going to catch up a long way away, if you back it off, so you arrive behind them at the start of a straight, it can be by in an instant as long as the car in front sees you and sticks their indicator on.
You shouldn't be intimidated by them. You've both paid the same amount of money to be there and have just as much right to be there. Just because you're in a faster car doesn't mean you have the right to be an aggressive arse about it. Sometimes I think the proto owners and certainly the race team guys need to remember this. It's not your own personal test day. You're not there to get great lap times and slower cars are not ruining it for you. Then again, the same goes for the road car guys.
To the OP:
If you have the opportunity to practice losing control of your car in a safe environment this would give you the best idea on what to do if you spin. There's some good advice here but how do you know what's right and wrong?
Learning some basic car control through losing control will not only make you enjoy driving more but will also make it much less likely for you to spin as you will be more aware of what the car's doing and how to correct should you need to.
I've been dong track days for 15 years and nearly every accident I see (not many thankfully) I always think how easily it could have been avoided if the driver had some basic car control. lol it's the same for some racing drivers. The excuses I hear confirm my thoughts too.
Learning car control opens up a whole new world of fun. Whilst everyone else will pack up and go home at the slightest sprinkling of rain and fear of spinning you'll be relishing the thought of getting some low grip lapping.. Or is it just me?
A day like this costs about £60, tyres bought on site for around £10 including disposal of old tyres and wheels can be borrowed too. Might look a bit chav but so much fun and you'd learn very quickly what to do in a spin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhsX0elVG2k
If you have the opportunity to practice losing control of your car in a safe environment this would give you the best idea on what to do if you spin. There's some good advice here but how do you know what's right and wrong?
Learning some basic car control through losing control will not only make you enjoy driving more but will also make it much less likely for you to spin as you will be more aware of what the car's doing and how to correct should you need to.
I've been dong track days for 15 years and nearly every accident I see (not many thankfully) I always think how easily it could have been avoided if the driver had some basic car control. lol it's the same for some racing drivers. The excuses I hear confirm my thoughts too.
Learning car control opens up a whole new world of fun. Whilst everyone else will pack up and go home at the slightest sprinkling of rain and fear of spinning you'll be relishing the thought of getting some low grip lapping.. Or is it just me?
A day like this costs about £60, tyres bought on site for around £10 including disposal of old tyres and wheels can be borrowed too. Might look a bit chav but so much fun and you'd learn very quickly what to do in a spin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhsX0elVG2k
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