Driving cars with proper downforce
Discussion
I'm booked in to do a Palmersport day at Bedford next month and I'm thoroughly excited about driving the Palmersport Audi and the Jaguar JPLM. I've not driven cars with downforce before and have only really appreciated that sort of mid-corner grip when passengering in Radicals.
I'm guessing it'll take a bit of a leap of faith to get the corner entry speeds right in those cars, but for the most part I'm expecting them to be snappier and fairly unforgiving on the limit.
What are people's experiences of driving those sorts of cars? Are they evil unforgiving things or do they feel remarkably adjustable on the limit?
I'm guessing it'll take a bit of a leap of faith to get the corner entry speeds right in those cars, but for the most part I'm expecting them to be snappier and fairly unforgiving on the limit.
What are people's experiences of driving those sorts of cars? Are they evil unforgiving things or do they feel remarkably adjustable on the limit?
I found the JPLM a bit of a pig to get a handle on, couldn't really feel what it was doing, difficult to know when you'd locked it up, and very heavy on the steering. That one *may* have downforce from the underfloor, but TBH I doubt it.. Still very fast if you're used to roadcars, and the rate at which you can stop/corner speed you can carry is 'surprising' 
Mostly down to slicks and being light / stiff / wide.
The 'Formula' car is sweet as you like - very light to drive, 'feely', and very easy to get up on tip toes. Loved it - number 1 tip is to do up the helmet strap and the belts properly - at speed there's a fair amount of lift on the old helmet, feels like someone's trying to pick you up by it. As for downforce however, forget it - the wings are there for show.
Problem with downforce is that it needs wings, floors etc, to run very close to the ground. That's not terribly compatible with punters firing the car over kerbs and onto the grass. Don't let it bother you though, both are truly brilliant experiences, and far in advance of anything else you'd normally get to drive - especially coupled with palmersport's rather wonderful attitude towards making you go faster, rather than slowing you down
Mostly down to slicks and being light / stiff / wide.The 'Formula' car is sweet as you like - very light to drive, 'feely', and very easy to get up on tip toes. Loved it - number 1 tip is to do up the helmet strap and the belts properly - at speed there's a fair amount of lift on the old helmet, feels like someone's trying to pick you up by it. As for downforce however, forget it - the wings are there for show.
Problem with downforce is that it needs wings, floors etc, to run very close to the ground. That's not terribly compatible with punters firing the car over kerbs and onto the grass. Don't let it bother you though, both are truly brilliant experiences, and far in advance of anything else you'd normally get to drive - especially coupled with palmersport's rather wonderful attitude towards making you go faster, rather than slowing you down
Both cars have some downforce. The FJ is basically an FPA chassis, so has enough downforce to pull 2g lateral. The JP-LM is similar, but heavier - probably an additional 100kgs if you add the instructor - but the engine puts out a bit more poke - most folk are quicker in the JP-LM, but the FJ should be quicker. Tyres will be the limiting factor if you get near the performance limits - but just enjoy - fantastic cars to drive.
Edited by djmotorsport on Monday 8th September 21:40
Thanks for the info and the tips chaps. It doesn't sound like they provide the large amount of aero I'd suspected, which makes me feel rather more confident about driving them hard. I really am looking forward to driving them, they'll be the fastest and most nimble cars I've ever piloted and I can't wait to see how they handle.
I assume I'll need to wear the Palmersport crash helmets, but I'm aware of crash helmet lift ever since getting a lift at well into 3 figures on a CB1000 back in 1995 and forgetting to do the chin strap up!
I really am looking forward to driving them, they'll be the fastest and most nimble cars I've ever piloted and I can't wait to see how they handle.I assume I'll need to wear the Palmersport crash helmets, but I'm aware of crash helmet lift ever since getting a lift at well into 3 figures on a CB1000 back in 1995 and forgetting to do the chin strap up!
bennyboysvuk said:
Thanks for the info and the tips chaps. It doesn't sound like they provide the large amount of aero I'd suspected, which makes me feel rather more confident about driving them hard. I really am looking forward to driving them, they'll be the fastest and most nimble cars I've ever piloted and I can't wait to see how they handle.
I assume I'll need to wear the Palmersport crash helmets, but I'm aware of crash helmet lift ever since getting a lift at well into 3 figures on a CB1000 back in 1995 and forgetting to do the chin strap up!
For the formula Palmer Jaguar, you can wear your own helmet. I always do. I really am looking forward to driving them, they'll be the fastest and most nimble cars I've ever piloted and I can't wait to see how they handle.I assume I'll need to wear the Palmersport crash helmets, but I'm aware of crash helmet lift ever since getting a lift at well into 3 figures on a CB1000 back in 1995 and forgetting to do the chin strap up!
For the JP-LM you will wear a PalmerSport helmet with an intercom in it.
The JP-LM is the work of Simon Carrier (SPC design, now works on WRC cars). There's a little blurb about it in a PDF file here
http://mail5.hostinguk.net/public/downloadfile.asp...
I'm no racing driver, but I recon you can feel the downforce on the two last corners of the West track at Bedford.
As these things go, the cars aren't very stiff - remember that they are set up for joe bloggs to drive. Palmersport have no quality control on the skill level of their clients beyond a check of their road license.
Note position of right front wheel relative to the ground. (At this point on the track the car is doing about 85-90mph)
Edited to add: I don't know why the photo isn't showing up properly. It loaded up to thumbsnap fine.
Edited again: it's thumbsnap's thumbnail that isn't working.
Edited by CraigyMc on Wednesday 10th September 11:41
^ Craig's photo:
Craig and DJ are, of course, spot on. The cars generate more visual than actual downforce, but it's definitely still there. For me, the effect is such that they don't feel massively bewinged, they're not horrible in low-speed corners and don't demand you change your braking pressure as the speed bleeds off, but you can take much more ambition into the faster corners than you'd expect!
The JP-LMs generally tend to understeer so you can find the limits, but if it's a very hot day maybe approach it with caution since we found quite a lot of snap oversteer one year
use your instructor to maximum effect because if they know you want to get the most out of the car, they'll be invaluable in preparing you to "go it alone" in the Formula Jaguar - which is a truly wonderful experience, feeling light, direct and easy to drive in comparison. Both really come alive when you push them, and since nobody's mentioned the noise yet, it's fantastic 
Craig and DJ are, of course, spot on. The cars generate more visual than actual downforce, but it's definitely still there. For me, the effect is such that they don't feel massively bewinged, they're not horrible in low-speed corners and don't demand you change your braking pressure as the speed bleeds off, but you can take much more ambition into the faster corners than you'd expect!
The JP-LMs generally tend to understeer so you can find the limits, but if it's a very hot day maybe approach it with caution since we found quite a lot of snap oversteer one year
use your instructor to maximum effect because if they know you want to get the most out of the car, they'll be invaluable in preparing you to "go it alone" in the Formula Jaguar - which is a truly wonderful experience, feeling light, direct and easy to drive in comparison. Both really come alive when you push them, and since nobody's mentioned the noise yet, it's fantastic Although the formula car is indeed a palmer audi chassis, it's riding rather higher and with different aero bits than in it's previous guise Both the cars carry massive corner speed, but I'm rather sceptical it's 2g in FPJ trim (probably in it's previous FPA life).. and pretty convinced what it does is down to light weight and big slicks rather than aero.
Either way it's a bundle of fun, tower (onto the 'pit' straight) has to be one of my favourites in anything, and there's little about the way you drive the car that's specific or different to any other fast car, just a lot faster than what you previously thought was fast.
Interesting picture above.. that suggests to me that all the roll stiffness is in the front axle; set up to push I suspect. Not that it stopped me taking a large chunk of kerb and promptly rotating
hey ho! Best advice I can give is don't be intimidated, go enjoy.
Oh, and if they're running multiple groups, try to be in the LM before the formula. Good chance to get an idea for the speeds.
Both the cars carry massive corner speed, but I'm rather sceptical it's 2g in FPJ trim (probably in it's previous FPA life).. and pretty convinced what it does is down to light weight and big slicks rather than aero.Either way it's a bundle of fun, tower (onto the 'pit' straight) has to be one of my favourites in anything, and there's little about the way you drive the car that's specific or different to any other fast car, just a lot faster than what you previously thought was fast.
Interesting picture above.. that suggests to me that all the roll stiffness is in the front axle; set up to push I suspect. Not that it stopped me taking a large chunk of kerb and promptly rotating
hey ho! Best advice I can give is don't be intimidated, go enjoy. Oh, and if they're running multiple groups, try to be in the LM before the formula. Good chance to get an idea for the speeds.
Edited by upsidedownmark on Wednesday 10th September 23:32
All on the website - palmersport.com
Basically lots. I did the evening program because it had the best ratio of cars I actually wanted to drive (i.e. JPLM, FPJ, Atom, oh and karts - whatever). Price for that was a bit under 500 quid. Not cheap. However you do get to go and give it death, rather than trundling around with a silly rev limit/other killjoy antics.
Basically lots. I did the evening program because it had the best ratio of cars I actually wanted to drive (i.e. JPLM, FPJ, Atom, oh and karts - whatever). Price for that was a bit under 500 quid. Not cheap. However you do get to go and give it death, rather than trundling around with a silly rev limit/other killjoy antics.
Trev450 said:
Sorry to go off topic, but I'm seriously considering doing the full day next year and was wondering what the approximate cost would be.
Depends on how you do it.Current list price for the full day is £959 during peak times, £864 off-peak. Half-day is £545.
Off peak is usually March, Nov and the first half of Dec. Occasionally some early dates in April are off-peak too.
They don't usually run in the second half of Dec, or Jan/Feb at all. All other times are peak (my prices are inc VAT).
Palmersport don't generally discount, although for longstanding customers who keep bringing big groups along that rule gets bent a bit.
CraigyMc said:
Trev450 said:
Sorry to go off topic, but I'm seriously considering doing the full day next year and was wondering what the approximate cost would be.
Depends on how you do it.Current list price for the full day is £959 during peak times, £864 off-peak. Half-day is £545.
Off peak is usually March, Nov and the first half of Dec. Occasionally some early dates in April are off-peak too.
They don't usually run in the second half of Dec, or Jan/Feb at all. All other times are peak (my prices are inc VAT).
Palmersport don't generally discount, although for longstanding customers who keep bringing big groups along that rule gets bent a bit.
Thanks for the all the info guys. I was thinking that they might be set up quite aggressively, but if there's some understeer at the limit then I'll try to find that and then work it out from there.
I'm almost glad to hear that there's not too much aero and that I don't need to think about hugely different grip levels between low and high speed corners. That means I can just press on and see how it feels.
It sounds like re-calibrating the brain after driving the other cars is a necessity. High corner entry speed in something new and grippy is always a bit of a leap of imagination initially, but I hope the cars will provide the feedback to give me confidence to push hard.
The competitive spirit is high with both myself and the guys I'll be attending with, so the pressure's on.
I'm almost glad to hear that there's not too much aero and that I don't need to think about hugely different grip levels between low and high speed corners. That means I can just press on and see how it feels.
It sounds like re-calibrating the brain after driving the other cars is a necessity. High corner entry speed in something new and grippy is always a bit of a leap of imagination initially, but I hope the cars will provide the feedback to give me confidence to push hard.
The competitive spirit is high with both myself and the guys I'll be attending with, so the pressure's on.
I did the full day a couple of weeks back and expected to build up to the lmp and single seater but was in the lmp first followed by the single seater .
I did note that pretty much all the cars were LPG powered so not likely to be making the power quoted and nothing felt particularly quick in terms of acceleration but grip levels take some getting used to especially the lmp as the instructor does step in if it gets out of shape .
The other issue is being put in a group with no track experience as you have limited time and can spend quite a bit of ot crawling round waiting for a safe place to pass , I watched my video and didn't get a clear lap in thd single seater
I did note that pretty much all the cars were LPG powered so not likely to be making the power quoted and nothing felt particularly quick in terms of acceleration but grip levels take some getting used to especially the lmp as the instructor does step in if it gets out of shape .
The other issue is being put in a group with no track experience as you have limited time and can spend quite a bit of ot crawling round waiting for a safe place to pass , I watched my video and didn't get a clear lap in thd single seater
Can't say I had any issues with that - the instructors were very good at moving over for each other in the two seaters, and with the single seater it's easy to pass someone who's a bit slow if you back off and time it to get a run on them out of a corner.
As (think) I've said, I reckon the evening session is the best value - much as many of the cars are cool, they're 'just' cars. Atom/LMP/single seater was where it was at for me.
As (think) I've said, I reckon the evening session is the best value - much as many of the cars are cool, they're 'just' cars. Atom/LMP/single seater was where it was at for me.
upsidedownmark said:
Can't say I had any issues with that - the instructors were very good at moving over for each other in the two seaters, and with the single seater it's easy to pass someone who's a bit slow if you back off and time it to get a run on them out of a corner.
As (think) I've said, I reckon the evening session is the best value - much as many of the cars are cool, they're 'just' cars. Atom/LMP/single seater was where it was at for me.
Last year I did a full day and evening session back to back on the same day (to my knowledge, I'm the only person to have done this).As (think) I've said, I reckon the evening session is the best value - much as many of the cars are cool, they're 'just' cars. Atom/LMP/single seater was where it was at for me.
For the evening session, I was back in the JP-LM and FPJ.
The JP-LM instructor I had was the same one from that afternoon, so there was a short conversation where he said something along the lines of "OK, I remember you. Unless you want me to talk to you, I'm just going to stay quiet and let you drive" -- which suited me down to the ground.
Absolutely awesome, although hitting the track already knowing the conditions and the car itself put me in a position of overtaking everyone all the time. The tyres start to let go after about 10 minutes of being given a hard thrash, and the brakes smoke a bit when you roll back into the pits. The instructor seemed happy enough too, although of course that's his job.
Yesterday was the day I did the event and it really couldn't have been any wetter and apart from the visibility in the Caterhams and Atoms, which was probably the worst I've experienced (even in 16 years of riding motorcycles) it was a fantastic day.
The FPJ was so much more intuitive than I thought it would be and it offered so much precision and feedback. I did spin it three times though, including once on the out lap on slowly warming tyres (idiot). During the session I was never really aware of any aero going on, but in hindsight I guess it did feel better in the fast corners. Of all the cars there I felt it was the most adjustable and feelsome to drive.
I took third place overall and came home with two trophies, so was really very pleased with how things went on the day.
The FPJ was so much more intuitive than I thought it would be and it offered so much precision and feedback. I did spin it three times though, including once on the out lap on slowly warming tyres (idiot). During the session I was never really aware of any aero going on, but in hindsight I guess it did feel better in the fast corners. Of all the cars there I felt it was the most adjustable and feelsome to drive.
I took third place overall and came home with two trophies, so was really very pleased with how things went on the day.
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