Tyre condition after track day

Tyre condition after track day

Author
Discussion

Stuart444

Original Poster:

7 posts

114 months

Monday 15th September 2014
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This might be daft, but it's worth asking......

I've done a few track days in different cars and am looking forwards to my first go at Oulton in a few weeks in my Boxster S.

When at Anglesey a few years ago, they warned me to watch my tyres as the police often amuse themselves by waiting outside, or on the A55, ready to nab people and inspect their tyres, as that track is known to be very hard on tyres. So I was duly careful and went home legal.

I'm wondering if I manage to get my Porsche tyres illegal, how will I get home in case Mr Cheshire Plod is bored? Of course I could hire a trailer, or buy a set of spare wheels, but that's rather expensive.

So I wondered, if I towed it home (only about 15 miles), would that be legal? I know trailers have to have legal tyres, but I can't find any reference on the net for the tyres of a towed vehicle.

Thanks for any info.

andyiley

9,105 posts

151 months

Monday 15th September 2014
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If the tyres are on the road they need to be legal.

Cunno

511 posts

156 months

Monday 15th September 2014
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Unless your tyres are below 3-4mm can't see you having an issue getting home legally. If your on the BaT day on the 18th Oct then they have support services and can change tyres for you if pre ordered.

Jon

Cunno

511 posts

156 months

Monday 15th September 2014
quotequote all
Unless your tyres are below 3-4mm can't see you having an issue getting home legally. If your on the BaT day on the 18th Oct then they have support services and can change tyres for you if pre ordered.

Jon

Stuart444

Original Poster:

7 posts

114 months

Monday 15th September 2014
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Thanks for that. I hadn't thought of finding someone to fit tyres there. Actually I've booked the day on 4th November, and am eyeing up 7th Nov too. Sounds a good idea - I can buy 4 tyres and fit them if needed, otherwise use my usual fitter.

Stuart444

Original Poster:

7 posts

114 months

Tuesday 16th September 2014
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Having read your post again, I guess there might be no-one there on 4th Nov to do it - is that service specific to that organiser?

QBee

20,904 posts

143 months

Tuesday 16th September 2014
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Can I ask a few questions ?

1. How worn are your tyres going to be at the start of the day?
2. What kind of tyres are you using?
3. How much wear do you normally get on a track day?

I have not yet done Oulton Park - I have been eying up that date too - but I do do Cadwell Park regularly, which is a surprsingly fast track, with a mass of corners, many of them pretty tight and fast, connected by the odd short straight. In a front engined (obviously!) TVR I have never even got close to wearing out my Toyo R888s or Federal 595s. I suspect it is heavier cars, starting on fairly worn road rubber or very soft track tyres, that are trashing their tyres.

Anyone else have an opinion?

Salesy

850 posts

128 months

Tuesday 16th September 2014
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I guess it's down to the car and track.

I have done 2x evening sessions at brands hatch with a total of 120ish. Laps. My fronts were brand new when I started and the rears with around 5mm on them, after the 120 laps I would say the fronts are at around 6-7mm and the rears 4mm.

I was a little heavy on the front as the car tended to oversteer due to me taking the corners a bit hot.

I have a sprint this weekend and I am expecting a bit of wear as the surface is not great. I have never seen the plod outside Brands or North weald but I suppose if you take the piss and try and drive home illegal then you gets what you deserve.




Stuart444

Original Poster:

7 posts

114 months

Tuesday 16th September 2014
quotequote all
I've got Conti Sport Contact 3s on, with about 6mm on the front and 4mm on the back, both measured in the middle of the tyres. My Anglesey experience was when I had a supercharged MX-5 with I think Dunlop tyres on, I forget which type, and it removed 3-4mm of tread in maybe 5, 20 minute sessions so maybe 50-70 laps. I know there's a big difference between legal and what Porsche recommends, so I figured enjoy the end of these tyres and get new ones for winter.

Anyway it's an interesting issue. I've booked via Javelin and they reckon it's unlikely there'll be anyone there who can change tyres. I rang Oulton and they said the same. They also were unable to tell me if, say, a garage would be available to leave the car in whilst I took the wheels away for re-shodding or to hire a trailer. I've found people selling used wheels with part worn tyres on ebay etc, but it's an expensive solution. Guess I'll just have to take my tread gauge with me.

boxsey

3,574 posts

209 months

Tuesday 16th September 2014
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In reply to you original post you don't need to specifically worry about Cheshire police hanging around the outside of track looking for easy targets. They don't do that even though their main headquarters are only a few miles away. You're actually more likely to meet them on the track as they often use track days at Oulton as part of their training. Saying all that, it's still your own responsibility to have safe and legal tyres when you leave.

Ekona

1,652 posts

201 months

Tuesday 16th September 2014
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As long as you don't rock up on tyres that are on 2mm, or spend the entire day sideways, I reckon you'll be fine. Just keep an eye on wear across the tyre after every session, and if it looks like you're wearing too much then either adjust your driving or simply stop for the day.

I almost got caught out once after an Anglesey day spent sideways in my old MX-5, and it was only by pure chance that I spotted I was wearing massively on the nearside rear. I stopped going out after that, as I figured I'd definitely be illegal for the trip home if I finished the afternoon off.


As always, caution will see you right here. smile

upsidedownmark

2,120 posts

134 months

Tuesday 16th September 2014
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Used to track my (986) Boxster S. It's pretty easy on the fronts, you should have no concerns there.

I'd be a bit undecided about the rears. If you're hard on tyres you might run into issues; I wrote off a set of michelin ps2's in very short order, but that's largely down to that specific tyre - very soft, I melted it quite badly, and continued lapping long after it got very hot and slidey - worth being wise to that and coming in / letting them cool off. On the other end of the scale I've managed to get 3 TD's out of a set of bridgestone S02's on the rear which are I think more akin to the contis.

What's going to kill them is sliding; I'm a bit surprised you killed tyres on the MX, I find mine very very easy on tyres on track, but mine isn't supercharged, and I tend to be on the neater side of things rather than tail out. Boxster (imho) goes a lot better if kept neat - mine would tend to oversteer in and understeer out whereas the MX seems to do the exact opposite. Not sure if that's any help..

Cunno

511 posts

156 months

Tuesday 16th September 2014
quotequote all
Stuart444 said:
Having read your post again, I guess there might be no-one there on 4th Nov to do it - is that service specific to that organiser?
Yes bookatrack only

QBee

20,904 posts

143 months

Tuesday 16th September 2014
quotequote all
upsidedownmark said:
Used to track my (986) Boxster S. It's pretty easy on the fronts, you should have no concerns there.

I'd be a bit undecided about the rears. If you're hard on tyres you might run into issues; I wrote off a set of michelin ps2's in very short order, but that's largely down to that specific tyre - very soft, I melted it quite badly, and continued lapping long after it got very hot and slidey - worth being wise to that and coming in / letting them cool off. On the other end of the scale I've managed to get 3 TD's out of a set of bridgestone S02's on the rear which are I think more akin to the contis.

What's going to kill them is sliding; I'm a bit surprised you killed tyres on the MX, I find mine very very easy on tyres on track, but mine isn't supercharged, and I tend to be on the neater side of things rather than tail out. Boxster (imho) goes a lot better if kept neat - mine would tend to oversteer in and understeer out whereas the MX seems to do the exact opposite. Not sure if that's any help..
One thing to add - if you are going to be a serial track dayer, invest in some road legal track tyres and cheap wheels of the correct offset and sizes for your car, and change onto them for the track day. Buy them in a reasonably hard compound - you don't need super softs to have fun.

IMHO, track tyres last far better than road tyres, so pay for themselves pretty quickly. I have now done four TD's in my 300 bhp TVR on a set of Federal 595 RS-Rs, as well as using them on the road for 5,000 miles, and they are only about 1/4 worn. And I drive it pretty hard on track. I have also used Toyo R888s, but actually prefer the cheaper 595s.
A good friend of mine in a similar car, but on Toyo T1Rs (standard road fare) trashed his brand new tyres on his first TD at Bedford, despite not going through the corners at anything like my speed.

The issue is tread blocks. You must have watched the racing on the telly, where they start a race on wets in light rain, and then it dries out, and some brave sod who started on slicks comes through the pack and wins? Their problem is the wet tyres are overheating and losing grip.
Standard new road tyres have 8mm of tread. New track tyres have 5-6mm of tread. No, they are not being mean, they are doing you a favour. What trashes road tyres on track is the tread blocks moving around and getting hot, and literally melting. Nothing wears them out faster - it's why drifting is the fastest way of trashing your rubber.

So that's the answer - road legal track tyres:

Toyo R888
Yoko AD08
Yoko AO48
Federal FZ201 (brilliant, but take four laps to warm up and are like ice before that)
Federal 595 RS-R (my present favourite)
Dunlop DZ03 (?)

and there are others.

Just don't try to be clever in a downpour on any of them.

Dakkon

7,826 posts

252 months

Tuesday 16th September 2014
quotequote all
QBee said:
upsidedownmark said:
Used to track my (986) Boxster S. It's pretty easy on the fronts, you should have no concerns there.

I'd be a bit undecided about the rears. If you're hard on tyres you might run into issues; I wrote off a set of michelin ps2's in very short order, but that's largely down to that specific tyre - very soft, I melted it quite badly, and continued lapping long after it got very hot and slidey - worth being wise to that and coming in / letting them cool off. On the other end of the scale I've managed to get 3 TD's out of a set of bridgestone S02's on the rear which are I think more akin to the contis.

What's going to kill them is sliding; I'm a bit surprised you killed tyres on the MX, I find mine very very easy on tyres on track, but mine isn't supercharged, and I tend to be on the neater side of things rather than tail out. Boxster (imho) goes a lot better if kept neat - mine would tend to oversteer in and understeer out whereas the MX seems to do the exact opposite. Not sure if that's any help..
One thing to add - if you are going to be a serial track dayer, invest in some road legal track tyres and cheap wheels of the correct offset and sizes for your car, and change onto them for the track day. Buy them in a reasonably hard compound - you don't need super softs to have fun.

IMHO, track tyres last far better than road tyres, so pay for themselves pretty quickly. I have now done four TD's in my 300 bhp TVR on a set of Federal 595 RS-Rs, as well as using them on the road for 5,000 miles, and they are only about 1/4 worn. And I drive it pretty hard on track. I have also used Toyo R888s, but actually prefer the cheaper 595s.
A good friend of mine in a similar car, but on Toyo T1Rs (standard road fare) trashed his brand new tyres on his first TD at Bedford, despite not going through the corners at anything like my speed.

The issue is tread blocks. You must have watched the racing on the telly, where they start a race on wets in light rain, and then it dries out, and some brave sod who started on slicks comes through the pack and wins? Their problem is the wet tyres are overheating and losing grip.
Standard new road tyres have 8mm of tread. New track tyres have 5-6mm of tread. No, they are not being mean, they are doing you a favour. What trashes road tyres on track is the tread blocks moving around and getting hot, and literally melting. Nothing wears them out faster - it's why drifting is the fastest way of trashing your rubber.

So that's the answer - road legal track tyres:

Toyo R888
Yoko AD08
Yoko AO48
Federal FZ201 (brilliant, but take four laps to warm up and are like ice before that)
Federal 595 RS-R (my present favourite)
Dunlop DZ03 (?)

and there are others.

Just don't try to be clever in a downpour on any of them.
Yes, to all the above, I use Kumho V70 semi-slicks on my MR2 turbo, bought them in thr hard compount at the beginning of the year and only a third worn now.

Stuart444

Original Poster:

7 posts

114 months

Tuesday 16th September 2014
quotequote all
Thanks for all that wisdom. I don't expect to be doing lots of TDs, just enough to get a better feel of what the car is capable of. So I think I'll buy a set of new road tyres and swap them when I have to, but expect that with care I probably won't need to do so on the day, especially if I only do the one day.

If I got bitten and decided to do more, then I like the idea of getting some track wheels and tyres of the type you recommend. Can you suggest a supplier of these and of "inexpensive" wheels? The sites I found only sell alloys at hefty prices (£1000-£2000 - well beyond what I'd be prepared to pay for this). I could get some secondhand ones - I found a few on sale at around £750. Can you get steel wheels for the track - or does the weight ruin the suspension setup?

QBee

20,904 posts

143 months

Tuesday 16th September 2014
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Stuart, you have mail.

Fonzey

2,056 posts

126 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
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I've found with my first set of "track tires" that they've become useless before running out of tread.

They're medium r888s on a lardy impreza and they've got 3mm left but I guess the heat cycles have killed them as my last track day was just void of all grip.

Brand new set waiting to go on for next time smile

QBee

20,904 posts

143 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
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Of course, you rarely take road tyres to the grip limit on the public road.......but don't you find that when they are down to 2 - 2.5 mm they have a lot less grip than when nearly new?.

Lardy Subaru = around 1250 kg
Lardy Boxster = around 1350 kg
Lardy TVR Chimaera = around 1100 kg

So all more similar than I expected before I checked. My first set of R888s was bought off another TVR owner complete with wheels with about 4mm of tread. I did about 10 track days on them before they died, fronts on 2mm, rears at about 2.5 mm.

I agree, you might plan to wear them right down to "slicks", but the truth is you run out of grip first. But they wear a lot slower than road tyres. Or soft track tyres, which is why I suggest buying medium to hard compound track tyres.

Truth is, track daying is not good for your tyres, but it's such fun, and unless you are a driving god, it's so much more fun on track tyres. One further point - I have been told by my TVR expert to resist using used racing slicks, as they could break my suspension, diff or drive shafts.

OP, I suggest that when you go to Oulton, one thing you might do is find another Boxster owner, or similar car, but on track tyres, and blag a passenger ride. Then you will see the difference.

chris7676

2,685 posts

219 months

Wednesday 17th September 2014
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I normally would shed 1mm on a track day - strangely similarly for both the light and heavy cars I have tracked.