Worst Track Day, Organisers & Most Expensive.....
Discussion
ukkid35 said:
I don't want to confuse issues here, but I won't go with Javelin again.
When I went with Javelin a few years ago I took a friend for his first trackday, and that was in my car. The briefing started very professionally and went as expected until the last minute when they suddenly announced that passing would be permitted (by consent) on EITHER SIDE. As a result there were so many near misses, that were totally unnecessary, because there are plenty of overtaking opportunities at Spa. Instead of being a relaxing introduction to trackday etiquette at one of the best circuits in Europe, it became almost as nerve racking as a TF lap at the Ring.
Paul, I have done 2 days with Javelin this year both well run, I fear you may have been unlucky in your experience , however I have never driven Spa with them.When I went with Javelin a few years ago I took a friend for his first trackday, and that was in my car. The briefing started very professionally and went as expected until the last minute when they suddenly announced that passing would be permitted (by consent) on EITHER SIDE. As a result there were so many near misses, that were totally unnecessary, because there are plenty of overtaking opportunities at Spa. Instead of being a relaxing introduction to trackday etiquette at one of the best circuits in Europe, it became almost as nerve racking as a TF lap at the Ring.
aussieinlondon said:
As for Graham, known him for a while and I like him and his general 'straight to the point tell it as it is attitude', but then ex military, so the straight up style in your face talking down to is nothing new.
This figures, I came away feeling like I had been on a recent episode of Commando School after failing an exercise! He may well be a great bloke to mix with down the pub, but his briefings are not well executed and his target audience has not spent years being conditioned to the disconnect world of the forces.Edited by aussieinlondon on Friday 26th September 17:18
Be nice if this thread could be used as constructive criticism to improve the future quality of people's experience with said company, or at least gives people the opportunity to choose if they want to pay to be abused or not;)
Hi all,
I rarely post on PH but some of you will know that I've been around here for ages and have a variety of cars that I have tracked over the years.
I was on this two day track day with 5 friends. I was in my GTR, with them with them mainly in 911's GT3[RS].
I would add a few points which may or may not help from a 'seasoned' track day person who has used RMA for many many years.
Briefing
It's how he does it. There have been many comments about it, but in general it seems to work. The standard of driving is high at RMA days (which is why I like it) and generally I prefer them for a whole host of reasons. If you are a quick driver, in a quick car, then the rule set that Graham outlines works. I don't find it at all a problem, and prefer this rule set to others, especially as other's rules when there is a significant quick driver/quick car contingent tends to lead to more dangerous situations IMHO.
Newbies
I'd never driven Spa before (perhaps amazingly), but I did have a personal instructor with me. I wouldn't have considered anything else. Graham has a 'unique' way of putting it, but with the normal mix of cars and driver experience that is at RMA days I'd never do anything else. At a recent Oulton trip with RMA I did the same - again because I'd never driven it before. RMA kindly put me in the first 2 hours of instruction there as they tend to ensure there is a good balance between how quickly you get instructed and your confidence levels (in other words less confident newbies went before me). If you don't get instruction then that is your choice, but whilst his language was colourful, given you've spent 1000's getting there, why not spend the addition?
There has been talk of briefing about the 'bad corners', pointers etc. I can't agree with that. Before I went I spent hours and hours reading many Internet available articles about Spa, and spent a considerable amount of time on the Playstation reminding me and making notes. My breakfast on Monday was spent going through those notes and again refreshing myself on the excellent notes from the LoT team (http://www.lotus-on-track.com/circuit_guide/spa_francorchamps.html). I do therefore agree with Graham, if you haven't done that then you really shouldn't be at a track like Spa where everyone knows the saying "there is one type of accident at Spa, a big one".
'Race cars'
Yes, they are always there. Spa was much better I thought. One of our party had a bit of a 'moment' with the Cup 911 (nothing too serious, just a miss-understanding about who was going where), but the driver quickly came over to apologise. Graham also had a word with another race 911 on slicks overnight and by the second day I saw no problem with it, in fact I thought all the race/slick shod cars were very well behaved, and even the Caterhams that couldn't do a whole lap quicker than me by the second day were very respectful. By my second day I had some lovely tussles with three of four slick shod cars, with me eventually letting them by and then trying to hang onto them, and there was even a few thumbs up during the [safe] passing move by them.
Accidents
I unfortunately was behind the black GTR when it went off as both me and the 911 Cup car were behind him at the time. I am very sorry to hear of the broken bones, it looked a massive accident, but it happened at a very strange place. I cannot comment on what was said afterwards as I wasn't there, but given the normal lack of accidents that happen on RMA days it was perhaps the culmination of a series of events that second day that really meant things had got too serious and that was reflected.
As a GTR owner it pained me to be right behind you when you had your accident, and I was told later that you had been to Spa before, so I'd put it down to incredible bad luck. As I'd following you from Kemmel if you want to PM me and have a chat about what I saw as your lap unfolded eventually ending with the accident I'd be delighted to call you and have a chat. It won't fix your car but might give you some insight into what happened from a different angle.
Finally, people might like to know that the 'straw that broke the camels back' was a driver in a Caterham hitting a classic car that was being driven by a 60+ owner and then ****ing off down EauR. This happened just after the GTR accident, and is an astonishing thing to happen. Whilst I don't particularly agree with Graham's way of delivery, the message needed to happen when it did, and it seemed to work. Yes, people will say "how dare he talk like that", but then also "how dare you hit someone and then not stop"....
Personality
I can understand why people who have never seen the RMA team gain the impression they do. There is nothing wrong with that, afterall I got the same probably 15 years ago when I took my M12 to my first day with RMA. Graham is passionate about keeping people safe and his 'zero tolerance' approach seems to work very well. I have only ever been involved in one accident on a track day (as a passenger in someone else's car that was also there) and hence my experience is RMA=0, others=1. One crash is too many, so hence I continue to return to RMA.
Graham is very clear though, if you don't like it don't turn up. Some may think it's mad, not 'good customer service', but you have to respect it's his company and he's kept a lot of people very safe whilst still providing, IMHO, the 'best' track day you can get.
Overtaking both sides
I prefer it as both the overtaker and the overtakee. I do exactly what was suggested, stick to your line and let the faster car worry about it. Good mirror behaviour also helps, and for me I quickly work out who the quick cars are and just spot them on the straight and approach the next corner and either give them the apex (my preferred option) or exit that bit slower. Again, it works, and it's fine for me. I can see why people won't like it, but then there are many other days which have the 'only on the left, only on the straights' and that's the nice thing about choice.
'Ginetta/Mclaren etc'
Whilst I can see people equate 40 tonne transporters with multiple cars and support teams with 'fast' and 'dangerous' cars, both Ginetta and McLaren were providing customer laps. Having been kind enough to give me a few laps in the 650S I know that as a customer car you never get left to push it. Whilst the Ginetta has been cited as 'ran out of talent' the discussion with the team told a different story, but it's not appropriate I think to discuss accidents outside of the people involved.
So, there you have it. Not a glowing reference, but perhaps a bit of a different view from someone with extensive driving and track day company experience.
If you didn't like it then the wonderful thing about commercialism is that there is a choice and you can move to a different company. Personally though, I would rarely do anything but an RMA day for a whole host of reasons, and they are generally my preferred option.
Finally, Graham has indeed told me that I'm a t
t a few times, but also he's a very charming and knowledgeable person and his wider team have never ever done anything but be accommodating to fit us all in. There generally will be two sides to a story with Graham, but I think the positives are better than the negatives.
Again, I am very sorry to the GTR owner for his miss hap, as well as everyone else that had a problem, but I personally very much enjoyed it and if you are prepared for the way RMA runs things, they are excellent, perhaps the best.
J
I rarely post on PH but some of you will know that I've been around here for ages and have a variety of cars that I have tracked over the years.
I was on this two day track day with 5 friends. I was in my GTR, with them with them mainly in 911's GT3[RS].
I would add a few points which may or may not help from a 'seasoned' track day person who has used RMA for many many years.
Briefing
It's how he does it. There have been many comments about it, but in general it seems to work. The standard of driving is high at RMA days (which is why I like it) and generally I prefer them for a whole host of reasons. If you are a quick driver, in a quick car, then the rule set that Graham outlines works. I don't find it at all a problem, and prefer this rule set to others, especially as other's rules when there is a significant quick driver/quick car contingent tends to lead to more dangerous situations IMHO.
Newbies
I'd never driven Spa before (perhaps amazingly), but I did have a personal instructor with me. I wouldn't have considered anything else. Graham has a 'unique' way of putting it, but with the normal mix of cars and driver experience that is at RMA days I'd never do anything else. At a recent Oulton trip with RMA I did the same - again because I'd never driven it before. RMA kindly put me in the first 2 hours of instruction there as they tend to ensure there is a good balance between how quickly you get instructed and your confidence levels (in other words less confident newbies went before me). If you don't get instruction then that is your choice, but whilst his language was colourful, given you've spent 1000's getting there, why not spend the addition?
There has been talk of briefing about the 'bad corners', pointers etc. I can't agree with that. Before I went I spent hours and hours reading many Internet available articles about Spa, and spent a considerable amount of time on the Playstation reminding me and making notes. My breakfast on Monday was spent going through those notes and again refreshing myself on the excellent notes from the LoT team (http://www.lotus-on-track.com/circuit_guide/spa_francorchamps.html). I do therefore agree with Graham, if you haven't done that then you really shouldn't be at a track like Spa where everyone knows the saying "there is one type of accident at Spa, a big one".
'Race cars'
Yes, they are always there. Spa was much better I thought. One of our party had a bit of a 'moment' with the Cup 911 (nothing too serious, just a miss-understanding about who was going where), but the driver quickly came over to apologise. Graham also had a word with another race 911 on slicks overnight and by the second day I saw no problem with it, in fact I thought all the race/slick shod cars were very well behaved, and even the Caterhams that couldn't do a whole lap quicker than me by the second day were very respectful. By my second day I had some lovely tussles with three of four slick shod cars, with me eventually letting them by and then trying to hang onto them, and there was even a few thumbs up during the [safe] passing move by them.
Accidents
I unfortunately was behind the black GTR when it went off as both me and the 911 Cup car were behind him at the time. I am very sorry to hear of the broken bones, it looked a massive accident, but it happened at a very strange place. I cannot comment on what was said afterwards as I wasn't there, but given the normal lack of accidents that happen on RMA days it was perhaps the culmination of a series of events that second day that really meant things had got too serious and that was reflected.
As a GTR owner it pained me to be right behind you when you had your accident, and I was told later that you had been to Spa before, so I'd put it down to incredible bad luck. As I'd following you from Kemmel if you want to PM me and have a chat about what I saw as your lap unfolded eventually ending with the accident I'd be delighted to call you and have a chat. It won't fix your car but might give you some insight into what happened from a different angle.
Finally, people might like to know that the 'straw that broke the camels back' was a driver in a Caterham hitting a classic car that was being driven by a 60+ owner and then ****ing off down EauR. This happened just after the GTR accident, and is an astonishing thing to happen. Whilst I don't particularly agree with Graham's way of delivery, the message needed to happen when it did, and it seemed to work. Yes, people will say "how dare he talk like that", but then also "how dare you hit someone and then not stop"....
Personality
I can understand why people who have never seen the RMA team gain the impression they do. There is nothing wrong with that, afterall I got the same probably 15 years ago when I took my M12 to my first day with RMA. Graham is passionate about keeping people safe and his 'zero tolerance' approach seems to work very well. I have only ever been involved in one accident on a track day (as a passenger in someone else's car that was also there) and hence my experience is RMA=0, others=1. One crash is too many, so hence I continue to return to RMA.
Graham is very clear though, if you don't like it don't turn up. Some may think it's mad, not 'good customer service', but you have to respect it's his company and he's kept a lot of people very safe whilst still providing, IMHO, the 'best' track day you can get.
Overtaking both sides
I prefer it as both the overtaker and the overtakee. I do exactly what was suggested, stick to your line and let the faster car worry about it. Good mirror behaviour also helps, and for me I quickly work out who the quick cars are and just spot them on the straight and approach the next corner and either give them the apex (my preferred option) or exit that bit slower. Again, it works, and it's fine for me. I can see why people won't like it, but then there are many other days which have the 'only on the left, only on the straights' and that's the nice thing about choice.
'Ginetta/Mclaren etc'
Whilst I can see people equate 40 tonne transporters with multiple cars and support teams with 'fast' and 'dangerous' cars, both Ginetta and McLaren were providing customer laps. Having been kind enough to give me a few laps in the 650S I know that as a customer car you never get left to push it. Whilst the Ginetta has been cited as 'ran out of talent' the discussion with the team told a different story, but it's not appropriate I think to discuss accidents outside of the people involved.
So, there you have it. Not a glowing reference, but perhaps a bit of a different view from someone with extensive driving and track day company experience.
If you didn't like it then the wonderful thing about commercialism is that there is a choice and you can move to a different company. Personally though, I would rarely do anything but an RMA day for a whole host of reasons, and they are generally my preferred option.
Finally, Graham has indeed told me that I'm a t
t a few times, but also he's a very charming and knowledgeable person and his wider team have never ever done anything but be accommodating to fit us all in. There generally will be two sides to a story with Graham, but I think the positives are better than the negatives.Again, I am very sorry to the GTR owner for his miss hap, as well as everyone else that had a problem, but I personally very much enjoyed it and if you are prepared for the way RMA runs things, they are excellent, perhaps the best.
J
gruffalo said:
ukkid35 said:
I don't want to confuse issues here, but I won't go with Javelin again.
When I went with Javelin a few years ago I took a friend for his first trackday, and that was in my car. The briefing started very professionally and went as expected until the last minute when they suddenly announced that passing would be permitted (by consent) on EITHER SIDE. As a result there were so many near misses, that were totally unnecessary, because there are plenty of overtaking opportunities at Spa. Instead of being a relaxing introduction to trackday etiquette at one of the best circuits in Europe, it became almost as nerve racking as a TF lap at the Ring.
Paul, I have done 2 days with Javelin this year both well run, I fear you may have been unlucky in your experience , however I have never driven Spa with them.When I went with Javelin a few years ago I took a friend for his first trackday, and that was in my car. The briefing started very professionally and went as expected until the last minute when they suddenly announced that passing would be permitted (by consent) on EITHER SIDE. As a result there were so many near misses, that were totally unnecessary, because there are plenty of overtaking opportunities at Spa. Instead of being a relaxing introduction to trackday etiquette at one of the best circuits in Europe, it became almost as nerve racking as a TF lap at the Ring.
To answer another poster, I did take the hump and report RMA to the ATDO, and, yes, I was not there. You are entitled to make your comments, it's a democracy and an open forum. I have done enough track days to understand that I would take extreme exception to the way that Spa day was reportedly run, both at the briefing and at the bad accident, and I have used the same democratic open forum to voice my opinions. I am looking forward to going to Spa next Spring, but with another TDO.
joust said:
Hi all,
I rarely post on PH but some of you will know that I've been around here for ages and have a variety of cars that I have tracked over the years.
I was on this two day track day with 5 friends. I was in my GTR, with them with them mainly in 911's GT3[RS].
I would add a few points which may or may not help from a 'seasoned' track day person who has used RMA for many many years.
Briefing
It's how he does it. There have been many comments about it, but in general it seems to work. The standard of driving is high at RMA days (which is why I like it) and generally I prefer them for a whole host of reasons. If you are a quick driver, in a quick car, then the rule set that Graham outlines works. I don't find it at all a problem, and prefer this rule set to others, especially as other's rules when there is a significant quick driver/quick car contingent tends to lead to more dangerous situations IMHO.
Newbies
I'd never driven Spa before (perhaps amazingly), but I did have a personal instructor with me. I wouldn't have considered anything else. Graham has a 'unique' way of putting it, but with the normal mix of cars and driver experience that is at RMA days I'd never do anything else. At a recent Oulton trip with RMA I did the same - again because I'd never driven it before. RMA kindly put me in the first 2 hours of instruction there as they tend to ensure there is a good balance between how quickly you get instructed and your confidence levels (in other words less confident newbies went before me). If you don't get instruction then that is your choice, but whilst his language was colourful, given you've spent 1000's getting there, why not spend the addition?
There has been talk of briefing about the 'bad corners', pointers etc. I can't agree with that. Before I went I spent hours and hours reading many Internet available articles about Spa, and spent a considerable amount of time on the Playstation reminding me and making notes. My breakfast on Monday was spent going through those notes and again refreshing myself on the excellent notes from the LoT team (http://www.lotus-on-track.com/circuit_guide/spa_francorchamps.html). I do therefore agree with Graham, if you haven't done that then you really shouldn't be at a track like Spa where everyone knows the saying "there is one type of accident at Spa, a big one".
'Race cars'
Yes, they are always there. Spa was much better I thought. One of our party had a bit of a 'moment' with the Cup 911 (nothing too serious, just a miss-understanding about who was going where), but the driver quickly came over to apologise. Graham also had a word with another race 911 on slicks overnight and by the second day I saw no problem with it, in fact I thought all the race/slick shod cars were very well behaved, and even the Caterhams that couldn't do a whole lap quicker than me by the second day were very respectful. By my second day I had some lovely tussles with three of four slick shod cars, with me eventually letting them by and then trying to hang onto them, and there was even a few thumbs up during the [safe] passing move by them.
Accidents
I unfortunately was behind the black GTR when it went off as both me and the 911 Cup car were behind him at the time. I am very sorry to hear of the broken bones, it looked a massive accident, but it happened at a very strange place. I cannot comment on what was said afterwards as I wasn't there, but given the normal lack of accidents that happen on RMA days it was perhaps the culmination of a series of events that second day that really meant things had got too serious and that was reflected.
As a GTR owner it pained me to be right behind you when you had your accident, and I was told later that you had been to Spa before, so I'd put it down to incredible bad luck. As I'd following you from Kemmel if you want to PM me and have a chat about what I saw as your lap unfolded eventually ending with the accident I'd be delighted to call you and have a chat. It won't fix your car but might give you some insight into what happened from a different angle.
Finally, people might like to know that the 'straw that broke the camels back' was a driver in a Caterham hitting a classic car that was being driven by a 60+ owner and then ****ing off down EauR. This happened just after the GTR accident, and is an astonishing thing to happen. Whilst I don't particularly agree with Graham's way of delivery, the message needed to happen when it did, and it seemed to work. Yes, people will say "how dare he talk like that", but then also "how dare you hit someone and then not stop"....
Personality
I can understand why people who have never seen the RMA team gain the impression they do. There is nothing wrong with that, afterall I got the same probably 15 years ago when I took my M12 to my first day with RMA. Graham is passionate about keeping people safe and his 'zero tolerance' approach seems to work very well. I have only ever been involved in one accident on a track day (as a passenger in someone else's car that was also there) and hence my experience is RMA=0, others=1. One crash is too many, so hence I continue to return to RMA.
Graham is very clear though, if you don't like it don't turn up. Some may think it's mad, not 'good customer service', but you have to respect it's his company and he's kept a lot of people very safe whilst still providing, IMHO, the 'best' track day you can get.
Overtaking both sides
I prefer it as both the overtaker and the overtakee. I do exactly what was suggested, stick to your line and let the faster car worry about it. Good mirror behaviour also helps, and for me I quickly work out who the quick cars are and just spot them on the straight and approach the next corner and either give them the apex (my preferred option) or exit that bit slower. Again, it works, and it's fine for me. I can see why people won't like it, but then there are many other days which have the 'only on the left, only on the straights' and that's the nice thing about choice.
'Ginetta/Mclaren etc'
Whilst I can see people equate 40 tonne transporters with multiple cars and support teams with 'fast' and 'dangerous' cars, both Ginetta and McLaren were providing customer laps. Having been kind enough to give me a few laps in the 650S I know that as a customer car you never get left to push it. Whilst the Ginetta has been cited as 'ran out of talent' the discussion with the team told a different story, but it's not appropriate I think to discuss accidents outside of the people involved.
So, there you have it. Not a glowing reference, but perhaps a bit of a different view from someone with extensive driving and track day company experience.
If you didn't like it then the wonderful thing about commercialism is that there is a choice and you can move to a different company. Personally though, I would rarely do anything but an RMA day for a whole host of reasons, and they are generally my preferred option.
Finally, Graham has indeed told me that I'm a tt a few times, but also he's a very charming and knowledgeable person and his wider team have never ever done anything but be accommodating to fit us all in. There generally will be two sides to a story with Graham, but I think the positives are better than the negatives.
Again, I am very sorry to the GTR owner for his miss hap, as well as everyone else that had a problem, but I personally very much enjoyed it and if you are prepared for the way RMA runs things, they are excellent, perhaps the best.
J
Please don't take this the wrong way but are you the chap that is very close to RMA and ran in the rear of the Ultima whilst showboating with the young girl from RMA?I rarely post on PH but some of you will know that I've been around here for ages and have a variety of cars that I have tracked over the years.
I was on this two day track day with 5 friends. I was in my GTR, with them with them mainly in 911's GT3[RS].
I would add a few points which may or may not help from a 'seasoned' track day person who has used RMA for many many years.
Briefing
It's how he does it. There have been many comments about it, but in general it seems to work. The standard of driving is high at RMA days (which is why I like it) and generally I prefer them for a whole host of reasons. If you are a quick driver, in a quick car, then the rule set that Graham outlines works. I don't find it at all a problem, and prefer this rule set to others, especially as other's rules when there is a significant quick driver/quick car contingent tends to lead to more dangerous situations IMHO.
Newbies
I'd never driven Spa before (perhaps amazingly), but I did have a personal instructor with me. I wouldn't have considered anything else. Graham has a 'unique' way of putting it, but with the normal mix of cars and driver experience that is at RMA days I'd never do anything else. At a recent Oulton trip with RMA I did the same - again because I'd never driven it before. RMA kindly put me in the first 2 hours of instruction there as they tend to ensure there is a good balance between how quickly you get instructed and your confidence levels (in other words less confident newbies went before me). If you don't get instruction then that is your choice, but whilst his language was colourful, given you've spent 1000's getting there, why not spend the addition?
There has been talk of briefing about the 'bad corners', pointers etc. I can't agree with that. Before I went I spent hours and hours reading many Internet available articles about Spa, and spent a considerable amount of time on the Playstation reminding me and making notes. My breakfast on Monday was spent going through those notes and again refreshing myself on the excellent notes from the LoT team (http://www.lotus-on-track.com/circuit_guide/spa_francorchamps.html). I do therefore agree with Graham, if you haven't done that then you really shouldn't be at a track like Spa where everyone knows the saying "there is one type of accident at Spa, a big one".
'Race cars'
Yes, they are always there. Spa was much better I thought. One of our party had a bit of a 'moment' with the Cup 911 (nothing too serious, just a miss-understanding about who was going where), but the driver quickly came over to apologise. Graham also had a word with another race 911 on slicks overnight and by the second day I saw no problem with it, in fact I thought all the race/slick shod cars were very well behaved, and even the Caterhams that couldn't do a whole lap quicker than me by the second day were very respectful. By my second day I had some lovely tussles with three of four slick shod cars, with me eventually letting them by and then trying to hang onto them, and there was even a few thumbs up during the [safe] passing move by them.
Accidents
I unfortunately was behind the black GTR when it went off as both me and the 911 Cup car were behind him at the time. I am very sorry to hear of the broken bones, it looked a massive accident, but it happened at a very strange place. I cannot comment on what was said afterwards as I wasn't there, but given the normal lack of accidents that happen on RMA days it was perhaps the culmination of a series of events that second day that really meant things had got too serious and that was reflected.
As a GTR owner it pained me to be right behind you when you had your accident, and I was told later that you had been to Spa before, so I'd put it down to incredible bad luck. As I'd following you from Kemmel if you want to PM me and have a chat about what I saw as your lap unfolded eventually ending with the accident I'd be delighted to call you and have a chat. It won't fix your car but might give you some insight into what happened from a different angle.
Finally, people might like to know that the 'straw that broke the camels back' was a driver in a Caterham hitting a classic car that was being driven by a 60+ owner and then ****ing off down EauR. This happened just after the GTR accident, and is an astonishing thing to happen. Whilst I don't particularly agree with Graham's way of delivery, the message needed to happen when it did, and it seemed to work. Yes, people will say "how dare he talk like that", but then also "how dare you hit someone and then not stop"....
Personality
I can understand why people who have never seen the RMA team gain the impression they do. There is nothing wrong with that, afterall I got the same probably 15 years ago when I took my M12 to my first day with RMA. Graham is passionate about keeping people safe and his 'zero tolerance' approach seems to work very well. I have only ever been involved in one accident on a track day (as a passenger in someone else's car that was also there) and hence my experience is RMA=0, others=1. One crash is too many, so hence I continue to return to RMA.
Graham is very clear though, if you don't like it don't turn up. Some may think it's mad, not 'good customer service', but you have to respect it's his company and he's kept a lot of people very safe whilst still providing, IMHO, the 'best' track day you can get.
Overtaking both sides
I prefer it as both the overtaker and the overtakee. I do exactly what was suggested, stick to your line and let the faster car worry about it. Good mirror behaviour also helps, and for me I quickly work out who the quick cars are and just spot them on the straight and approach the next corner and either give them the apex (my preferred option) or exit that bit slower. Again, it works, and it's fine for me. I can see why people won't like it, but then there are many other days which have the 'only on the left, only on the straights' and that's the nice thing about choice.
'Ginetta/Mclaren etc'
Whilst I can see people equate 40 tonne transporters with multiple cars and support teams with 'fast' and 'dangerous' cars, both Ginetta and McLaren were providing customer laps. Having been kind enough to give me a few laps in the 650S I know that as a customer car you never get left to push it. Whilst the Ginetta has been cited as 'ran out of talent' the discussion with the team told a different story, but it's not appropriate I think to discuss accidents outside of the people involved.
So, there you have it. Not a glowing reference, but perhaps a bit of a different view from someone with extensive driving and track day company experience.
If you didn't like it then the wonderful thing about commercialism is that there is a choice and you can move to a different company. Personally though, I would rarely do anything but an RMA day for a whole host of reasons, and they are generally my preferred option.
Finally, Graham has indeed told me that I'm a t
t a few times, but also he's a very charming and knowledgeable person and his wider team have never ever done anything but be accommodating to fit us all in. There generally will be two sides to a story with Graham, but I think the positives are better than the negatives.Again, I am very sorry to the GTR owner for his miss hap, as well as everyone else that had a problem, but I personally very much enjoyed it and if you are prepared for the way RMA runs things, they are excellent, perhaps the best.
J
I was also on Spa this week with RMA, same group as Joust and fully agree with the post. Yes Graham is a little rough when delivering his message. But it is his style and his business, so if you don't like it, you should book with someone else. Starting to report someone while not even attending seems weird, but hey it's a free world. Remember Graham's standard final line... "I don't give a feck if I upset a few poor souls, as long as 95% of you had a good event, I have done my job". As usual, there are a few that doesn't fit in and moan afterwards, that's life and we move on. Most likely 95% were happy as a usual and will come back for more. The few unhappy will book with someone else that are a little more gentle, only left hand overtaking, cars and drivers more inexperienced and slower.
The Cup car dug that down aggressively on the inside nicking my line was on me, it was a friend and he knows I would do the same to him. We meet at loads of RMA days, he is on slicks I am on cups, it was a none issue. We drive Vmax together door to door at 200+ mph as well. Last hour Tue we were only a few left and I blocked him between Kemmel and Blanchimont in return, that's what you get on a RMA day. As long as you don't make dangerous moves, RMA will let you have some fun. Step out of line and Graham explodes, we all know it and stay just off that zone.
Novices and slower drivers are just as welcome and well treated/respected as long as they move over without being silly. If new to the track, prepare well and take an instructor or a mate out to help with lines. If new to track driving, defo take an instructor, but in reality you should do handling days first and then come out for slower track days.
Really a shame the GTR chap went off and bend the car, it was a strange place to go off, hopefully you recover well and get out on track again.
Time to move on, I am looking forward to my next RMA day.
The Cup car dug that down aggressively on the inside nicking my line was on me, it was a friend and he knows I would do the same to him. We meet at loads of RMA days, he is on slicks I am on cups, it was a none issue. We drive Vmax together door to door at 200+ mph as well. Last hour Tue we were only a few left and I blocked him between Kemmel and Blanchimont in return, that's what you get on a RMA day. As long as you don't make dangerous moves, RMA will let you have some fun. Step out of line and Graham explodes, we all know it and stay just off that zone.
Novices and slower drivers are just as welcome and well treated/respected as long as they move over without being silly. If new to the track, prepare well and take an instructor or a mate out to help with lines. If new to track driving, defo take an instructor, but in reality you should do handling days first and then come out for slower track days.
Really a shame the GTR chap went off and bend the car, it was a strange place to go off, hopefully you recover well and get out on track again.
Time to move on, I am looking forward to my next RMA day.
Edited by 911Viking on Friday 26th September 21:51
911Viking said:
as long as they move over without being silly..
Well that entirely contradict the briefing! I have been on an RMA day at Silverstone (and some years ago at Spa) and was clearly told not to make allowances for people overtaking...I do think there is a problem with the RMA rules if you have a car such as an Elise that is slow on the straights but often quicker in the corners... which means it can be a struggle to overtake safely in my view.
Having said that I had no issues at Silverstone in May when there were many cars on slicks etc (testing for Blancpain was suggested...) but did at Spa in '07 and had a heated discussion with Graham at that event!
911Viking said:
I was also on Spa this week with RMA, same group as Joust and fully agree with the post.
911Viking said:
Novices and slower drivers are just as welcome and well treated/respected as long as they move over without being silly.
joust said:
Overtaking both sides
I prefer it as both the overtaker and the overtakee. I do exactly what was suggested, stick to your line and let the faster car worry about it.
Isn't this uncertainty / difference of opinion part of the perceived problem? Its a question as I've only been on a small number of "overtake left" days.I prefer it as both the overtaker and the overtakee. I do exactly what was suggested, stick to your line and let the faster car worry about it.
RWSINGLETON said:
Please don't take this the wrong way but are you the chap that is very close to RMA and ran in the rear of the Ultima whilst showboating with the young girl from RMA?
For the avoidance of doubt in case Joust has not seen your question, the answer is no. I witnessed the incident you mention - it was a different GTRBobToc said:
Isn't this uncertainty / difference of opinion part of the perceived problem? Its a question as I've only been on a small number of "overtake left" days.
Its interesting, I do not see this as uncertainty...but as 'being treated as adults'I was initially a little apprehensive of the open overtaking rules but actually it worked really well in the end.
Yes, the overtaking on the left only with consent is clearer in that you come up to a slower car and then you wait behind until said car decides to indicate and move over. We've all been there...this is not always very efficiently done, but on the other hand is transparent and clear.
The RMA version means that you end up having a number of options - e.g. go off line to go around the car either left or right; or in many cases the guy in front notices the faster car and decides to indicate and move to one side, creating a safer zone for both; or sometimes if close to a corner the car in front clearly offers the apex by going to the outside of the bend...but again, this is with consent.
Yes, it is not as simple/basic/slow as the overtake on one side...it means that you have a greater sense of awareness of each other. The car in front is also expecting that the car behind has a number of options and tends to be more aware of this....whereas on a 'overtake on left' event you would be shocked if the car behind did anything different.
I LOVED the freer overtaking rules especially at a fast flowing venue like Spa. I agree it probably works better with driver who have been on track before than complete novices (who in this case did have a novice sticker on their cars)
In answer to the general theme of this thread I would say the RMA days are perhaps better suited for more experienced drivers. Yes, Graham's approach is unique and not likely to appeal to all. But at the same time I would not hesitate to go again and again and believe our 'sport' would be a poorer place without the RMA option.
RWSINGLETON said:
Please don't take this the wrong way but are you the chap that is very close to RMA and ran in the rear of the Ultima whilst showboating with the young girl from RMA?
Nope.Look at my profile and posts. I have no affiliation to RMA apart from being a customer, and hadn't used RMA for years until Oulton, Cadwell and Soa this year.
Not quite sure why you would think I was the person you describe, as I have no clue what you are talking about??? The only Ultimate I saw spent all of Monday in the garage and then beeches himself on perhaps his second run on Tue.
J
BobToc said:
Isn't this uncertainty / difference of opinion part of the perceived problem? Its a question as I've only been on a small number of "overtake left" days.
What contradiction?There is a default rule.
There are then adults who can drive and look in the mirror at the same time who find their own style.
I didn't mind the cup car taking my apex, and I have the decency to indicate and then take the wrong line. It works so if you are a person that is confident and appreciates other RMA is a great choice.
To the point of "faster in the corners, slower on the straights" then just be adults and overtake in the twisters and let the faster car overtake on the straights so you do the lap behind/in front/behind. Or just get in front and then do a decent job in the corners to stay in front on the straights.
I had a great tussle with a slick shod R500 lap after lap after lap when at the bus stop were were one behind the other but hardly saw each other all lap. When I bailed I got a lovely thumbs up, because we both enjoyed the "lap but lap" challenge but ran our own thing during the lap.
As Viking says, 5% won't like it, so go somewhere else. If the 95% do Graham has a winning formula, long may it continue. Nothing is ever perfect and as per Viking's comment we are both very sorry about the GTR incident and hope it doesn't stop you wanting to go track days. As I said give me a shout if you want some feedback from my position.
J
Edited by joust on Saturday 27th September 00:02
BobToc said:
911Viking said:
I was also on Spa this week with RMA, same group as Joust and fully agree with the post.
911Viking said:
Novices and slower drivers are just as welcome and well treated/respected as long as they move over without being silly.
joust said:
Overtaking both sides
I prefer it as both the overtaker and the overtakee. I do exactly what was suggested, stick to your line and let the faster car worry about it.
Isn't this uncertainty / difference of opinion part of the perceived problem? Its a question as I've only been on a small number of "overtake left" days.I prefer it as both the overtaker and the overtakee. I do exactly what was suggested, stick to your line and let the faster car worry about it.
Being silly is attempting to keep up i.e. blocking when you lack the skills, don't know the track or have a significantly slower car.
Let me repeat... I think it's safe to say 95+% of RMA customers are perfectly happy and the few % that aren't will go somewhere else for their track days.
Mon this week on Spa was a good day, driving standard as usual high. Tue was unusually not good, too many novices or intermediates displaying lack of skills and respect of the RMA code. Graham, rightfully got pissed off and exploded.
Seriously, the few unhappy souls should move on and use another TDO. UK have several good ones, BaT, Goldtrack, Circuit Days are also great events but no both sides overtake. Pistenclub and RSR over here on the continent are super, similar to RMA code, both sides overtake and driver standard/skills are generally higher along a little more expensive.
So from the last you few posts you would have to assume that if you own a race car and compete in a championship then do an RMA day as a practice / test day and put up with a rude organiser, but if you want to do a track day and enjoy yourself ( as per 90% of track day users) go else where! Thanks for summing that up for us all Joust!!
This is an interesting topic for me, I was quoted earlier re a track day I attended at Silverstone.
I don't have a problem with RMA so to speak, but I do feel they are a grey area between a track and a test day. I booked RMA and accepted the premium so we could try out (test) our race car. Perhaps this is where the problem lies, as there is a distinction between the two. I appreciate black crosses are offered for novices but I am not sure they are really respected, and clearly (from the day I attended) big monies are generated from top series/marque participation.
I feel for the GTR driver who had the accident, not just for his injuries but more importantly (in the context of this thread) for the lack of respect shown by the track day organiser. If you chose to 'run' a track day surely you must also accept there will be problems, at which point your clients would appreciate your support rather than dissent.
I don't have a problem with RMA so to speak, but I do feel they are a grey area between a track and a test day. I booked RMA and accepted the premium so we could try out (test) our race car. Perhaps this is where the problem lies, as there is a distinction between the two. I appreciate black crosses are offered for novices but I am not sure they are really respected, and clearly (from the day I attended) big monies are generated from top series/marque participation.
I feel for the GTR driver who had the accident, not just for his injuries but more importantly (in the context of this thread) for the lack of respect shown by the track day organiser. If you chose to 'run' a track day surely you must also accept there will be problems, at which point your clients would appreciate your support rather than dissent.
LaSource said:
Its interesting, I do not see this as uncertainty...but as 'being treated as adults'
I was initially a little apprehensive of the open overtaking rules but actually it worked really well in the end.
(Snip)
The RMA version means that you end up having a number of options - e.g. go off line to go around the car either left or right; or in many cases the guy in front notices the faster car and decides to indicate and move to one side, creating a safer zone for both; or sometimes if close to a corner the car in front clearly offers the apex by going to the outside of the bend...but again, this is with consent.
(Snip)
I LOVED the freer overtaking rules especially at a fast flowing venue like Spa. I agree it probably works better with driver who have been on track before than complete novices (who in this case did have a novice sticker on their cars)
In answer to the general theme of this thread I would say the RMA days are perhaps better suited for more experienced drivers. Yes, Graham's approach is unique and not likely to appeal to all. But at the same time I would not hesitate to go again and again and believe our 'sport' would be a poorer place without the RMA option.
Couldn't have put it better myself. Many novices I chatted to has a great time and with the default rule giving you early confidence and then as you progress the "flow" gets better these are some of the best days out there IMHO.I was initially a little apprehensive of the open overtaking rules but actually it worked really well in the end.
(Snip)
The RMA version means that you end up having a number of options - e.g. go off line to go around the car either left or right; or in many cases the guy in front notices the faster car and decides to indicate and move to one side, creating a safer zone for both; or sometimes if close to a corner the car in front clearly offers the apex by going to the outside of the bend...but again, this is with consent.
(Snip)
I LOVED the freer overtaking rules especially at a fast flowing venue like Spa. I agree it probably works better with driver who have been on track before than complete novices (who in this case did have a novice sticker on their cars)
In answer to the general theme of this thread I would say the RMA days are perhaps better suited for more experienced drivers. Yes, Graham's approach is unique and not likely to appeal to all. But at the same time I would not hesitate to go again and again and believe our 'sport' would be a poorer place without the RMA option.
J
sydown said:
So from the last you few posts you would have to assume that if you own a race car and compete in a championship then do an RMA day as a practice / test day and put up with a rude organiser, but if you want to do a track day and enjoy yourself ( as per 90% of track day users) go else where! Thanks for summing that up for us all Joust!!
Just to confirm, I am not a race driver or own a race car...I am an enthusiast who may do 4-5 track days a year in the UK and Europe (basically just Silverstone, Spa, and Ring). The reality is that apart from the briefing, one is usually not interacting with the TDO but busy enjoying track time (accidents excepted)The formula worked for me, however, from reading this thread I suspect it would be adviseable that the TDO considers toning down their approach.
sydown said:
So from the last you few posts you would have to assume that if you own a race car and compete in a championship then do an RMA day as a practice / test day and put up with a rude organiser, but if you want to do a track day and enjoy yourself ( as per 90% of track day users) go else where! Thanks for summing that up for us all Joust!!
What total and utter rubbish. That is not what the last few posts have said, exactly the opposite.Is your middle name Troll?
Everyone I spoke to enjoyed themselves at the last 3 track days, from "virgins" at Oulton who found Graham's approach very reassuring to "old hands" who like the no nonsense approach.
I have been to far worse days where race cars are allowed to mix unfettered with road cars. Graham gets exactly the right balance so everyone can have fun.
However, as I said in my original post, the OP and the others have valid points and anything we say probably will mean they won't ever book a RMA event again. However Graham says from the outset that his model accomodates that.
All I would say is that if you get past the culture shock you find some of the best, if not best, days for people,that have mutual respect as well as being fast.
A case in point is all the novice Catherham's (academy?) out early on Tuesday. First few laps they stuck to their lines meaning a few snakes were created behind them. It's no problem, the day is long, laps are a many, and by the afternoon they were all split out and had started to use their mirrors.
As anyone that comes out with me will find I generally do a little commentary of people that haven't seen you. It's easy to spot, and all you do is brake hard, let them find their apex, let them know you are there and 3 or 4 corners later they will get their groove and feel relaxed to see you.
My fuel bill was over €700 over the two days so I've got plenty of laps, and just one slow bit doesn't matter, especially if the guy in the slower car learns how to spot faster cars.
As they day, there is always next lap.....
If you don't like swearing then don't go on an RMA day. Give Goldtrack, BaT (who I also personally rate) or even MSV's own track day a shout. They are nice, friendly, happy people. You'll have a great day. You'll overtake less and it won't be stressful.
Vote with your pounds. It's called a free market.
J
rpgk said:
This is an interesting topic for me, I was quoted earlier re a track day I attended at Silverstone.
I don't have a problem with RMA so to speak, but I do feel they are a grey area between a track and a test day. I booked RMA and accepted the premium so we could try out (test) our race car. Perhaps this is where the problem lies, as there is a distinction between the two. I appreciate black crosses are offered for novices but I am not sure they are really respected, and clearly (from the day I attended) big monies are generated from top series/marque participation.
For me that's half the attraction. There is nothing better than having a good session with something track focused when you are in your road car, and even worse, a Datsun.I don't have a problem with RMA so to speak, but I do feel they are a grey area between a track and a test day. I booked RMA and accepted the premium so we could try out (test) our race car. Perhaps this is where the problem lies, as there is a distinction between the two. I appreciate black crosses are offered for novices but I am not sure they are really respected, and clearly (from the day I attended) big monies are generated from top series/marque participation.
Mutual respect though is the key, and I think RMA, primarily because of Graham's approach, works. Graham has kicked out "big names" just as often as "little people". The Cup car 'chat' is the best example. And at Oulton a certain major manufactor with a certain letter between L and P had a chat as well.
rpgk said:
I feel for the GTR driver who had the accident, not just for his injuries but more importantly (in the context of this thread) for the lack of respect shown by the track day organiser. If you chose to 'run' a track day surely you must also accept there will be problems, at which point your clients would appreciate your support rather than dissent.
agreed, but then we have one side of that on here and straight after that one of the most appalling things I have ever heard about (hitting a car and the. 'Driving off') had happened between those two events so I personally think we should leave that to the people that were there and heard what was said at the time. Clearly the GTR driver is upset and Graham may not have done the right thing, but we should leave that to them two in my personal opinion.However we can offer our moral support to anyone that has an accident like that. It's not nice and I wish him the quickest recovery he can have.
It's a bit like the Ginetta comment. One's person "ran out of talent" is another's person X,Y,Z.....
You can't stop forums being like they are, but you can just respect the policies on here.
For me, the summary is that Graham says, from the outset, that his policies will upset people, but his 25 years of running stuff has shown it works, say what you will about him as a person the product does work, and he is 100% transparent about his views of what you should do if you don't like it. He calls a spade a f***ing spade, but at least he's transparent.
J
Edited by joust on Saturday 27th September 00:58
sydown said:
So from the last you few posts you would have to assume that if you own a race car and compete in a championship then do an RMA day as a practice / test day and put up with a rude organiser, but if you want to do a track day and enjoy yourself ( as per 90% of track day users) go else where! Thanks for summing that up for us all Joust!!
I disagree. I used to do a dozen trackdays a year, now do 2 or 3 in a relatively glacial 964, used these guys for the first time a week ago and wouldn't hesitate to book with them again. The reaction on here from people who have never used them is bordering on the hysterical. I'd rate them as one of the best organisers with gold track.Gassing Station | Track Days | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff