Kerbs at The Ring
Discussion
[quote=QBee][start nanny mode]
Several UK tracks have started enforcing "track limits" on track days this year, due to excessive use of, and particularly going right over, kerbs.
Their stated reasons are:
1. You don't need to go right over the kerbs - just using them should be enough.
2. Most drivers don't have the skill to handle the results of a thoroughly unsettled car at high speed, which leads to more accidents
3. There is plenty of black stuff
4. The dirt you pull onto the track by going right over the kerbs can cause someone else's accident, damage and possible injury
It's noticeable that even F1 is starting to enforce track limits on overtaking and in qualifying.
At the end of the day, you want you and your car to have fun and return safely.
[/end nanny mode]
Do they have a point? (Quote)
Yes they do, F1 and BTCC have a lot to answer for regarding the current styles of sloppy driving.The skill is in driving any circuit as quickly as possible within track limits.There is NO skill in chopping off clip point/apexes, that takes far less driver capability.
Several UK tracks have started enforcing "track limits" on track days this year, due to excessive use of, and particularly going right over, kerbs.
Their stated reasons are:
1. You don't need to go right over the kerbs - just using them should be enough.
2. Most drivers don't have the skill to handle the results of a thoroughly unsettled car at high speed, which leads to more accidents
3. There is plenty of black stuff
4. The dirt you pull onto the track by going right over the kerbs can cause someone else's accident, damage and possible injury
It's noticeable that even F1 is starting to enforce track limits on overtaking and in qualifying.
At the end of the day, you want you and your car to have fun and return safely.
[/end nanny mode]
Do they have a point? (Quote)
Yes they do, F1 and BTCC have a lot to answer for regarding the current styles of sloppy driving.The skill is in driving any circuit as quickly as possible within track limits.There is NO skill in chopping off clip point/apexes, that takes far less driver capability.
This is all great stuff guys, and food for thought, much appreciated.
I do think watching a very stiff F1 car taking kerbs can be quite unsettling to the viewer (or me at least), but road cars have so much more compliant suspension it doesn't really seem comparable.
My 78 year old mum quizzed the Ring Taxi driver about kerbing as she doesn't like me doing it, he avoided them and agreed with her. And now with your input it seems I've lost this one well and truly.
I do think watching a very stiff F1 car taking kerbs can be quite unsettling to the viewer (or me at least), but road cars have so much more compliant suspension it doesn't really seem comparable.
My 78 year old mum quizzed the Ring Taxi driver about kerbing as she doesn't like me doing it, he avoided them and agreed with her. And now with your input it seems I've lost this one well and truly.
So mum was right after all? Lol
Track limit penalties are nothing new, I once got called in for a chat with the CoC at Brands, several years ago, for going out wide at Paddock.Being a two driver race I was puzzled by getting the invite after only one forced excursion onto the kerb.My second driver heard of where I was so came up to Head Office to appologise for his going wide at the same spot!
This was back in 2005 and around the same period we were all reminded of the penalties for using the kerbs at Le Raidillon at Spa, four off would have been a drive through.Of course if your four off through there you got the entry totally wrong anyway.
Track limit penalties are nothing new, I once got called in for a chat with the CoC at Brands, several years ago, for going out wide at Paddock.Being a two driver race I was puzzled by getting the invite after only one forced excursion onto the kerb.My second driver heard of where I was so came up to Head Office to appologise for his going wide at the same spot!
This was back in 2005 and around the same period we were all reminded of the penalties for using the kerbs at Le Raidillon at Spa, four off would have been a drive through.Of course if your four off through there you got the entry totally wrong anyway.
I only use the curbs rarely when the mood takes me.
The massive curbs at the 'ring are pretty hard on cars, especially little light things like my Elise. Fine for a few laps but if you're doing decent miles there you're going to kill a lot of balljoints, bushes, bearings etc.
Note that many race teams there stay off the curbs to save the car.
The 323ti can take the pounding better but I'm never pushing that car very hard in the dry anyway.
As said by others, the time saved isn't significant & for a lot of people they'd do just as well pushing harder on a less disruptive line. Probably with less risk too.
The main benefit for tourist driving is making you feel all racecar
Because the curbs are big your timing really needs to be right to unweight that side and help lift the car over. Being slightly off tends to result in jarring hits, and if actually going fast enough to _really_ need the curb the driver will have some interesting work to tidy things up on the way out.
A good example is trying to take curbs 2 and 3 in the pics above. Get it a bit wrong on 2 and you'll take a brutal hit on 3. Of that set I'd leave 2 alone and stick to the more commonly used 1 & 3.
I was the 1st on scene a few weeks ago when a Cayman driver had shoved it comprehensivly into the armco at Hatzenbach. Guess what he was doing to end up stranded in the middle of the track with all airbags blown and a big hefty excess charge on his Visa?
Answer going too fast over kerbs that he didn't need to be hitting. I know because i was behind him and closing in on him in a Clio.
Also makes me chuckle when you head out for a lap and a driver is hitting every kerb as he believes that he is fast , then as soon as they get to Flugplatz they back off because they are well and truely lost.
Answer going too fast over kerbs that he didn't need to be hitting. I know because i was behind him and closing in on him in a Clio.
Also makes me chuckle when you head out for a lap and a driver is hitting every kerb as he believes that he is fast , then as soon as they get to Flugplatz they back off because they are well and truely lost.
I read this as "Kebab at The Ring" :-)
Anyway i suppose it all depends on your car as well, I always keep of the "Big kerbs" at places like Cadwell as they will damage the car as my sump is only 3 inches of the track surface.
7 type cars are quite "fragile" as you can see at 23 seconds when a weld snapped when the kerb was taken, which you can hear and see on the video.
Even worse is what took place at the end of the video :-( but that's another matter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itwaMv-ICCY
However when at Spa and the Kerbs are mainly flat and just painted
Anyway i suppose it all depends on your car as well, I always keep of the "Big kerbs" at places like Cadwell as they will damage the car as my sump is only 3 inches of the track surface.
7 type cars are quite "fragile" as you can see at 23 seconds when a weld snapped when the kerb was taken, which you can hear and see on the video.
Even worse is what took place at the end of the video :-( but that's another matter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itwaMv-ICCY
However when at Spa and the Kerbs are mainly flat and just painted
Haha 300 lap newbie. I suppose it depends how far under 300 laps but there are very few people on here who've done more than 300 I should imagine! That's a f*ck load of money (not just lap tickets; tyres, brakes, fuel...cars) to spend to get to that point unless you live in Nurburg or Adenau or are paid to do it. I imagine if you're at that stage though you must be about at the speed where taking kerbs is giving you an advantage.
It depends what car I'm in but the main kerbs that my colleagues and I consider fair game are indeed the ones you've posted at top of Fuchsrohre and exiting Wipperman, there's also a RH kerb two before Hatzenbach that seems to be quicker to take than avoid and you can straight-line eiskurve if you really want to but I think it's more likely to ruin your traction than save you time/distance.
But to reiterate a point, you're not a newbie. I think the people who aren't "up to speed" that doogalman was talking about instructing are most likely to be going a LOT slower than you and more likely to be still concentrating on where the track goes than controlling their car properly, hence it's a good idea to say "avoid all kerbs" than point out 3 or 4 that are OK to take in the dry if you're going quick enough to need them. Perhaps they're also speed dependant because if you take them slowly there's going to be a lot more load on the wheels that touch them than if you're going a decent pace.
Anyway, keep lapping! Good on you being sensible about the wet and maybe see you there some day in the future.
ETA: We don't use the kerbs purely to gain speed but also to purposely unsettle the car slightly and test the DSC's response. A good variation of techniques is the key to a well-rounded system rather than lap times since the system is there to help anyone of any skill level who gets it a bit wrong.
It depends what car I'm in but the main kerbs that my colleagues and I consider fair game are indeed the ones you've posted at top of Fuchsrohre and exiting Wipperman, there's also a RH kerb two before Hatzenbach that seems to be quicker to take than avoid and you can straight-line eiskurve if you really want to but I think it's more likely to ruin your traction than save you time/distance.
But to reiterate a point, you're not a newbie. I think the people who aren't "up to speed" that doogalman was talking about instructing are most likely to be going a LOT slower than you and more likely to be still concentrating on where the track goes than controlling their car properly, hence it's a good idea to say "avoid all kerbs" than point out 3 or 4 that are OK to take in the dry if you're going quick enough to need them. Perhaps they're also speed dependant because if you take them slowly there's going to be a lot more load on the wheels that touch them than if you're going a decent pace.
Anyway, keep lapping! Good on you being sensible about the wet and maybe see you there some day in the future.
ETA: We don't use the kerbs purely to gain speed but also to purposely unsettle the car slightly and test the DSC's response. A good variation of techniques is the key to a well-rounded system rather than lap times since the system is there to help anyone of any skill level who gets it a bit wrong.
Edited by Chapppers on Saturday 22 November 10:57
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