BMW E36 328 Track Car - Advice?
Discussion
@andyiley well roll centre is difficult to explain, I'm only just getting my head around the concept however it is a critical component of suspension geometry and an important part of a suspension system in order to get the best performance from a car setup.
This link explaining RC and COG in detail is worth a read http://www.thecartech.com/subjects/auto_eng2/Roll_...
@Fab32 I have no basis for comparison regarding the M50, but I feel that your findings are correct. In our case we have a fair few mechanical modifications we would like to apply, so mapping the car at this stage will be a waste of resources. Our plan is to add all of the mechanical mods we would like/can afford, then map it at the end to take advantage of all of them.
No doubt people would be scratching their heads if you are running an S50B32 engine in your 328
from what I have read the 328 can be made to be as competent and an S50B30/S50B32 E36 with the right selection of mods, nevermind dropping the Evo engine in it 
We are running the tyres that came with the car, which are to say ditch finders. No semi slicks for a while yet, probably not in 2015. Engine/exhaust/suspension/drivetrain modifications all need to be implemented and the car setup properly before we can justify wanting more grip. Not to mention driver skill/experience acquisition
I'm hopeful it will come eventually though.
With regards to brakes, I actually thought that the standard brakes with who knows what pads stood up quite well, so with a change of discs, pads and a bit of extra thermal management I think the standard system can be made to be quite competent. Ok its still a single piston setup so modulation and clamp power wouldn't match 4/6-pot setups, but the bias will remain as designed and mass/ unsprung weight will be advantageous to the common E46 parts bin upgrades imo. Time will tell
I haven't heard of End Tuning before, can you tell me what they charged for the map and was it a full rolling road map or....?
Humour
This link explaining RC and COG in detail is worth a read http://www.thecartech.com/subjects/auto_eng2/Roll_...
@Fab32 I have no basis for comparison regarding the M50, but I feel that your findings are correct. In our case we have a fair few mechanical modifications we would like to apply, so mapping the car at this stage will be a waste of resources. Our plan is to add all of the mechanical mods we would like/can afford, then map it at the end to take advantage of all of them.
No doubt people would be scratching their heads if you are running an S50B32 engine in your 328
from what I have read the 328 can be made to be as competent and an S50B30/S50B32 E36 with the right selection of mods, nevermind dropping the Evo engine in it We are running the tyres that came with the car, which are to say ditch finders. No semi slicks for a while yet, probably not in 2015. Engine/exhaust/suspension/drivetrain modifications all need to be implemented and the car setup properly before we can justify wanting more grip. Not to mention driver skill/experience acquisition
I'm hopeful it will come eventually though.With regards to brakes, I actually thought that the standard brakes with who knows what pads stood up quite well, so with a change of discs, pads and a bit of extra thermal management I think the standard system can be made to be quite competent. Ok its still a single piston setup so modulation and clamp power wouldn't match 4/6-pot setups, but the bias will remain as designed and mass/ unsprung weight will be advantageous to the common E46 parts bin upgrades imo. Time will tell
I haven't heard of End Tuning before, can you tell me what they charged for the map and was it a full rolling road map or....?
Humour
Edited by Humour on Friday 26th December 18:47
Edited by Humour on Friday 26th December 18:53
My car was a 1.6 compact so its very different from its original trim.
End Tuning is on here as well as other BMW forums and is quite well thought of, I originally contacted him to have the EWS removed he has a website with all the prices on but if you contact him he may offer you discount.
My advice would be to upgrade the tyres first I found with the 2.8 that it would break traction unpredictably which made me nervous and didn't allow me to find my own limit with the car, I think it has been the single most beneficial modification to date.
Have you done much weight stripping?
see my thread here
http://www.pistonheads.com/Gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
End Tuning is on here as well as other BMW forums and is quite well thought of, I originally contacted him to have the EWS removed he has a website with all the prices on but if you contact him he may offer you discount.
My advice would be to upgrade the tyres first I found with the 2.8 that it would break traction unpredictably which made me nervous and didn't allow me to find my own limit with the car, I think it has been the single most beneficial modification to date.
Have you done much weight stripping?
see my thread here
http://www.pistonheads.com/Gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
You're in quite a nice situation for brakes - there are many, many aftermarket pad options and easy OEM size upgrades available. Most people, myself included, find the standard setup with road pads to be inadequate for track use. Mine faded appreciably after just one hard lap of Blyton, but not everyone drives as hard on an open track day as I was on that sprint, and as you say you've got crap tyres fitted the brakes won't need to work as hard.
I have ATE Super Blue fluid and EBC Redstuff pads in mine, with standard-sized discs front and rear. This feels adequate on Kumho KU31s, perhaps I would be asking a bit much of it with semi-slicks but for now it's OK. If you need a little more, it's very simple to fit E46 328i front discs, which are 300mm vs the standard 286mm - the caliper is identical so all you need is the slightly bigger carrier, which can often be had from breakers. I paid £20 for a set. E46 328i rears are the same as E36, and the slight forward shift in the brake balance would make it a little easier to run the car without ABS. *
If you want to go further, the next step is E46 330i, which is 325mm front and a rear size that escapes me but now the calipers need to change, so to avoid excessive pedal travel you'd also need a new master cylinder. I think E36 M3 Evo ones work OK. This is obviously a bigger job and means you can't use smaller than 17" wheels. Unless you're driving the car extremely hard on serious track rubber, I'm not convinced it'd be necessary.
These cars are getting a little old now, and braided brake hoses offer a really dramatic improvement over often-worn original rubber hoses. I've got a set waiting to go on, and it really needs them!
If you want to disable the ABS, pull the relay under the bonnet. On my car, it helpfully has ABS stamped on it, but there should be a layout key on the lid if not! Pulling fuses will limit the car to 5500rpm as a weird safety precaution, but the relay lets the car rev out normally. As soon as you plug it back in, the ABS works again without any warning lights staying on.
I have ATE Super Blue fluid and EBC Redstuff pads in mine, with standard-sized discs front and rear. This feels adequate on Kumho KU31s, perhaps I would be asking a bit much of it with semi-slicks but for now it's OK. If you need a little more, it's very simple to fit E46 328i front discs, which are 300mm vs the standard 286mm - the caliper is identical so all you need is the slightly bigger carrier, which can often be had from breakers. I paid £20 for a set. E46 328i rears are the same as E36, and the slight forward shift in the brake balance would make it a little easier to run the car without ABS. *
If you want to go further, the next step is E46 330i, which is 325mm front and a rear size that escapes me but now the calipers need to change, so to avoid excessive pedal travel you'd also need a new master cylinder. I think E36 M3 Evo ones work OK. This is obviously a bigger job and means you can't use smaller than 17" wheels. Unless you're driving the car extremely hard on serious track rubber, I'm not convinced it'd be necessary.
These cars are getting a little old now, and braided brake hoses offer a really dramatic improvement over often-worn original rubber hoses. I've got a set waiting to go on, and it really needs them!
If you want to disable the ABS, pull the relay under the bonnet. On my car, it helpfully has ABS stamped on it, but there should be a layout key on the lid if not! Pulling fuses will limit the car to 5500rpm as a weird safety precaution, but the relay lets the car rev out normally. As soon as you plug it back in, the ABS works again without any warning lights staying on.
@Fab32 The car came fully stripped out when we bough it. All that remains internally is the top part of the dash. We were somewhat lucky as someone else went through the trouble to remove the sound deadning which I have seen is a right pig to remove. Result 
Bonnet, boot lid, and windows are still original, but these would be the only other items on a list of lightening mods I would consider as the car is not intended to be a full on racer, so we are most of the way there already.
@McSam, thanks for the info Sam, I have already read many a threads about brake upgrade options e.g. E46, M3, ect. etc. I didn't know however that the E46 328 uses the same calipers with a slightly bigger disc, so this may be worthwhile an upgrade to include with what else is being planned. My view is to go with Bluestuff NDX pads front and rear, source cooling duct plates to replace the dust plate at the front and mate this to the cooling ducts I have installed in place of the fog lights already. This will direct cool air directly into the "inner centre" part of the front disks and allow cool air to move through the disk vanes from the centre out. In addition we are going for the Brass caliper guides and dropping the rubber guide in the process both front and rear. I feel that with these mods the brake system will be significantly improved over what we have now. I like the idea of a slight change of bias to allow us to experiment with removing the ABS for a session to see how this affects things, so I will see if I can get hold of E46 328 front carriers and source E46 328 disks instead. The ideal situation for heat management is thicker discs but that is not an option with the OEM calipers, so we will try what's planned first and go from there.
I can tell you though that we did NOT take it easy on the brakes in our shakedown once we felt the car didn't have any issues reliability wise and found the limit of the brakes within a couple of laps, so I'm confident that we pushed the package to nearing its limit. I managed a 2.59 minute lap on the GT circuit with the ditch finders and standard brakes at +1C air temperature throughout the day, so I'm confident I didn't take it easy on the car.
Braided hoses 6-lines, clutch braided hose and CDV were fitted as a matter of course during the maintenance works, along with Super blue, so the minimum of the basics were done before we hit the track. Without these I wouldn't have felt comfortable pressing on the car.
Hum
Bonnet, boot lid, and windows are still original, but these would be the only other items on a list of lightening mods I would consider as the car is not intended to be a full on racer, so we are most of the way there already.
@McSam, thanks for the info Sam, I have already read many a threads about brake upgrade options e.g. E46, M3, ect. etc. I didn't know however that the E46 328 uses the same calipers with a slightly bigger disc, so this may be worthwhile an upgrade to include with what else is being planned. My view is to go with Bluestuff NDX pads front and rear, source cooling duct plates to replace the dust plate at the front and mate this to the cooling ducts I have installed in place of the fog lights already. This will direct cool air directly into the "inner centre" part of the front disks and allow cool air to move through the disk vanes from the centre out. In addition we are going for the Brass caliper guides and dropping the rubber guide in the process both front and rear. I feel that with these mods the brake system will be significantly improved over what we have now. I like the idea of a slight change of bias to allow us to experiment with removing the ABS for a session to see how this affects things, so I will see if I can get hold of E46 328 front carriers and source E46 328 disks instead. The ideal situation for heat management is thicker discs but that is not an option with the OEM calipers, so we will try what's planned first and go from there.
I can tell you though that we did NOT take it easy on the brakes in our shakedown once we felt the car didn't have any issues reliability wise and found the limit of the brakes within a couple of laps, so I'm confident that we pushed the package to nearing its limit. I managed a 2.59 minute lap on the GT circuit with the ditch finders and standard brakes at +1C air temperature throughout the day, so I'm confident I didn't take it easy on the car.
Braided hoses 6-lines, clutch braided hose and CDV were fitted as a matter of course during the maintenance works, along with Super blue, so the minimum of the basics were done before we hit the track. Without these I wouldn't have felt comfortable pressing on the car.
Hum
My E36 is running Eibach ARB's front and rear. Can't comment on just using one bar, but I would agree with Iguana (he owned my car briefly a couple of owners ago). Mine seems really nicely set up (to me), with Bilstein PSS9's. I will say though, that I had the car corner weighted and full Geo set up. Was the best money I've ever spent!!! I'm running -3 degrees of camber up front, and -2 at the rear, with a little toe-out on the front, and toe-in on the rear. Apart from making the car drive in a perfectly straight line, it made the thing feel really precise and predictable. Tyre wear has been also greatly improved. Running AP brakes on front and rear, but front pads will only last two trackdays (6 tanks of fuel). Rear pads with the AP caliper last far longer than standard caliper/pad combo.
@championissmo I have looked into Lexan/plastic windows and would love to have them installed, but we have more immediate things to address first, and with a limited budget the priority on spend right now has to focus on other areas of the car. I'm glad to hear they are being manufactured for E36's though, as it gives us time to source at a later date.
@MarkVWT5 interesting feedback, thanks Mark. Your AP BBK setup budget will more than likely buy our car with all the maintenance carried out thus far, so your budget is way bigger than ours. We bought the car for 1K, already stripped with a single racing seat installed. We have put into it another 1K, mostly on the cooling system overhaul, a couple of Intake mods, camshaft position sensor, new spark plugs, brake lines and all fluids servicing. Brakes are next, then I would like to have the rear end completely taken out and rebuilt along with the LSD and C&P installation. Once this is done we will take stock and double up on the paper rounds (lol) to save up for a mid-range coilover system (PSS9's are out of our budget) to allow us to setup the Geo/Camber/etc. properly.
Mark, do you happen to know the specifics on the amount of toe-out and toe-in front and rear? It would be interesting to know as a guide.
The sharp eared among you will have noticed on the video that the release bearing is on its way out and sounds like we have a cat under the bonnet on every gear change, so a new clutch, ideally a lightened single mass flywheel and a Z3M or similar short shifter all would need buying and fitting as part of one job. I'm guessing we will be another 2K in before we even think about budgeting for semi-slicks........this hobby can get expensive fast
but all work and no play is not healthy either 
so we will see how we get on.
Our saving grace is that one of the three owners is a mechanic with his own shop, so access to a lift, tools and expertise is included free of charge which makes this do-able for us.
Still, allot of work to do so gathering knowledge is very useful to minimise spend on unnecessary bits and pieces.
Humour
@MarkVWT5 interesting feedback, thanks Mark. Your AP BBK setup budget will more than likely buy our car with all the maintenance carried out thus far, so your budget is way bigger than ours. We bought the car for 1K, already stripped with a single racing seat installed. We have put into it another 1K, mostly on the cooling system overhaul, a couple of Intake mods, camshaft position sensor, new spark plugs, brake lines and all fluids servicing. Brakes are next, then I would like to have the rear end completely taken out and rebuilt along with the LSD and C&P installation. Once this is done we will take stock and double up on the paper rounds (lol) to save up for a mid-range coilover system (PSS9's are out of our budget) to allow us to setup the Geo/Camber/etc. properly.
Mark, do you happen to know the specifics on the amount of toe-out and toe-in front and rear? It would be interesting to know as a guide.
The sharp eared among you will have noticed on the video that the release bearing is on its way out and sounds like we have a cat under the bonnet on every gear change, so a new clutch, ideally a lightened single mass flywheel and a Z3M or similar short shifter all would need buying and fitting as part of one job. I'm guessing we will be another 2K in before we even think about budgeting for semi-slicks........this hobby can get expensive fast
but all work and no play is not healthy either so we will see how we get on.Our saving grace is that one of the three owners is a mechanic with his own shop, so access to a lift, tools and expertise is included free of charge which makes this do-able for us.
Still, allot of work to do so gathering knowledge is very useful to minimise spend on unnecessary bits and pieces.
Humour
Edited by Humour on Sunday 28th December 13:04
Edited by Humour on Sunday 28th December 13:07
Humour said:
We are running the tyres that came with the car, which are to say ditch finders. No semi slicks for a while yet, probably not in 2015. Engine/exhaust/suspension/drivetrain modifications all need to be implemented and the car setup properly before we can justify wanting more grip. Not to mention driver skill/experience acquisition I'm hopeful it will come eventually though.
I have used 888s & Direzzas before & keep coming back to Part worn Conti S/c 3 or % or Goodyear Eagle F1 Assymetrics with around 4mm on & they last well, with good grip when you go up to 245s all round. I'm hopeful it will come eventually though.Andy, presumably to run 245 tyres all around you are running square setup wheels that a wider than standard?
We are using the RC041's RC042's that came with the car. If I recall the fronts are 225's and the rears 235's. Thanks for the tip on the Contis and Eagle F1's though, these are more along the lines of what we might be looking to source second hand as replacements.
We are using the RC041's RC042's that came with the car. If I recall the fronts are 225's and the rears 235's. Thanks for the tip on the Contis and Eagle F1's though, these are more along the lines of what we might be looking to source second hand as replacements.
The wheels are 8s all round and yes I run a square set up.
In fairness the fronts JUST foul & although the MOT man has never mentioned it 235s could be better at the front, as they will not foul.
P/worns with 4mm £50 - 60/pair, no brainer for me on a budget, 3-5 track days minimum out of a set.
In fairness the fronts JUST foul & although the MOT man has never mentioned it 235s could be better at the front, as they will not foul.
P/worns with 4mm £50 - 60/pair, no brainer for me on a budget, 3-5 track days minimum out of a set.
Steer of clear of JOM's on a track car - way way way too soft!
I've got them on my road 328 and wish they were a bit firmer. I had TA Technix on my 2.8 Compact & if its budget suspension that you need to stick to I'd go with them, much firmer and more suited for the track feel wise.
If you can afford to spend a bit more, I've got HSD's on my E36 M3 along with Eibach ARB's and the setups nice.
I've got them on my road 328 and wish they were a bit firmer. I had TA Technix on my 2.8 Compact & if its budget suspension that you need to stick to I'd go with them, much firmer and more suited for the track feel wise.
If you can afford to spend a bit more, I've got HSD's on my E36 M3 along with Eibach ARB's and the setups nice.
@Sea Demon, thank for the feedback fella. I agree on all fronts regarding the suspension. The car came with the JOM's fitted which are almost brand new so we thought that it will do for the shakedown and whilst we are upgrading and refreshing various other parts of the car.
The intention is to go HSD Monopro with Nurburgring spec spring rates eventually, or similar setup which allows us to adjust front camber as our basic geo showed that we have a significant difference in front camber left to right which we are unable to adjust with our current setup, but this will have to wait until other areas are addressed first. Given a limited budget, suspension and grippy tyres will have to come last in the development cycle when the rest of the setup is up to the task of utilising such components, including the safety aspects such as a cage and revised seats and harnesses, so for now we have to compromise and deal with the basics of refreshing an old road car's underpinnings first.
Interesting that you are running coils and uprated ARB's though. Can you shed more light on which came first and why you felt the need to add the ARB's? This is an area of much interest for me to try and understand. I have read reports over on the US forums that a decent coilover setup with corrected Roll Centre (the front in particular) negates the need to manage body roll by adding uprated roll bars. With that in mind, do you know what ride height you are running front and rear on your coilover setup and have you looked into your front CoG/Roll Centre/Bump Steer as part of your Geo setup before adding the ARB's?
Regards, Humour
The intention is to go HSD Monopro with Nurburgring spec spring rates eventually, or similar setup which allows us to adjust front camber as our basic geo showed that we have a significant difference in front camber left to right which we are unable to adjust with our current setup, but this will have to wait until other areas are addressed first. Given a limited budget, suspension and grippy tyres will have to come last in the development cycle when the rest of the setup is up to the task of utilising such components, including the safety aspects such as a cage and revised seats and harnesses, so for now we have to compromise and deal with the basics of refreshing an old road car's underpinnings first.
Interesting that you are running coils and uprated ARB's though. Can you shed more light on which came first and why you felt the need to add the ARB's? This is an area of much interest for me to try and understand. I have read reports over on the US forums that a decent coilover setup with corrected Roll Centre (the front in particular) negates the need to manage body roll by adding uprated roll bars. With that in mind, do you know what ride height you are running front and rear on your coilover setup and have you looked into your front CoG/Roll Centre/Bump Steer as part of your Geo setup before adding the ARB's?
Regards, Humour
Edited by Humour on Monday 29th December 11:27
I'm interested in his thread as I have recently bought an E36 M3 track car and was looking for set up info. I can't believe the set up differences!
Some people have 10 mm toe in and some have 15 mm toe out at the rear with Camber varying from -4 (on a mates race M3) to - 1.5. At the front the toe varies from a small amount of toe in to 10-20mm toe out, with camber varying from-5 to -2.5.
Confused???
I know people like different characteristics but the differences here are very confusing!
Some people have 10 mm toe in and some have 15 mm toe out at the rear with Camber varying from -4 (on a mates race M3) to - 1.5. At the front the toe varies from a small amount of toe in to 10-20mm toe out, with camber varying from-5 to -2.5.
Confused???
I know people like different characteristics but the differences here are very confusing!
Andy97, there is allot of info online on the subject however every car and its level of prep/components will be different therefore drawing comparisons from what is suitable for some vs others is futile. I wouldn't want to give specifics for geo on this basis even though I have an opinion on where I want to start with ours.
Our car was set to 0degrees toe on the front and the rear was set to the OEM 328 sport geometry. We have no camber adjustment available on our car at present and the ride height is all wrong as is, so I have little to contribute right now other than my understanding of other people's setups. What do you think the geometry setup on yours should be as a starting point?
You have an already track prepped car from what you said in your post? If so presumably then it has the components to get a full geo check/reading and go from there. There are places you can go and have this done professionally if budget allows. Personally I would drive the car first as is and get a feel for it so I can tie the feeling with the car with the readings obtained by a geo check.
Our car was set to 0degrees toe on the front and the rear was set to the OEM 328 sport geometry. We have no camber adjustment available on our car at present and the ride height is all wrong as is, so I have little to contribute right now other than my understanding of other people's setups. What do you think the geometry setup on yours should be as a starting point?
You have an already track prepped car from what you said in your post? If so presumably then it has the components to get a full geo check/reading and go from there. There are places you can go and have this done professionally if budget allows. Personally I would drive the car first as is and get a feel for it so I can tie the feeling with the car with the readings obtained by a geo check.
Edited by Humour on Sunday 25th January 22:29
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