BMW E36 328 Track Car - Advice?
Discussion
Very fair comments H. My car was built for the Toyo Tyres Pre 94 championship by someone else and never completed. There are quite a few detail things that need doing to get it race ready, set up being one of them. I'm not technical so the work gets done by someone else but I'd like to give them a starting point! And the budget is low!
I like a very stable rear and am used to racing a Porsche 924S which is very stable. When I got the 924 set up there was strong consensus on what a decent set up should be for a race car from a number of experienced sources, I can't find that consensus with the E36!
I appreciate that different drivers like different set ups but I'd like to find a decent base set up to start with.
I have had the car on track but it was just a shakedown to make sure the mechanicals worked ok; it was on very unsuitable tyres and the brakes were crap so difficult to draw any conclusion. I'm hoping to get the car somewhere near, and on List 1b tyres, and the out on track to see how it handles before the middle of March.
I like a very stable rear and am used to racing a Porsche 924S which is very stable. When I got the 924 set up there was strong consensus on what a decent set up should be for a race car from a number of experienced sources, I can't find that consensus with the E36!
I appreciate that different drivers like different set ups but I'd like to find a decent base set up to start with.
I have had the car on track but it was just a shakedown to make sure the mechanicals worked ok; it was on very unsuitable tyres and the brakes were crap so difficult to draw any conclusion. I'm hoping to get the car somewhere near, and on List 1b tyres, and the out on track to see how it handles before the middle of March.
if I were in your position I would be aiming for a completely neutral set-up.
1 to 2 degrees camber on the rear, 2 to 4 degrees on the front. Zero toe all round.
If you put the car on level ground (this can, of course, be done with a rudimentary clear pipe/water level and thin wooden "shims" to get the car level) with all tyres at the correct pressures.
Then set all ride heights level and even left to right, with around 20mm rake up at the rear, the camber can be set reasonably accurately with a basic clinometer.
Then take it to your local fast fit centre for the tracking to be done.
1 to 2 degrees camber on the rear, 2 to 4 degrees on the front. Zero toe all round.
If you put the car on level ground (this can, of course, be done with a rudimentary clear pipe/water level and thin wooden "shims" to get the car level) with all tyres at the correct pressures.
Then set all ride heights level and even left to right, with around 20mm rake up at the rear, the camber can be set reasonably accurately with a basic clinometer.
Then take it to your local fast fit centre for the tracking to be done.
Edited by andyiley on Monday 26th January 09:26
I'd agree with starting out with neutral toe all round and about twice as much camber at the front as the rear. This is because the rear has considerably camber gain in roll, and the front doesn't, while neutral toe can give you a good feel for what tweaks might be needed on your particular setup.
Toe out at the rear is an alarm bell for me on E36s. It's a nice way to get a more active rear end on some cars, but it doesn't work on these, as the rear geometry brings negative steer in both compression and extension, so starting with static toe out gives you some very weird characteristics as you load the car up. The consensus for E36s seems to be between zero and twenty minutes total toe in, but never toe out.
Toe out at the rear is an alarm bell for me on E36s. It's a nice way to get a more active rear end on some cars, but it doesn't work on these, as the rear geometry brings negative steer in both compression and extension, so starting with static toe out gives you some very weird characteristics as you load the car up. The consensus for E36s seems to be between zero and twenty minutes total toe in, but never toe out.
Depending how much road use determines camber, if is fair bit of road use 2.5 deg neg is about best comprise, dont run just a degree yiu will eat tyres on track, if it only is on road to get to & from track or track only up to 4 deg, I run 3.6 & its driven back from spa & ring to uk, but really its a bit excessive, but far better for track wear. Gunna need either evo top mounts reversed for 2.5 or adjustable top mounts (some won't give you anywhere near enough camber tho), or spacer out on the leg.
Rear Max camber on stock adjusters is OK as a starter.
Rear Max camber on stock adjusters is OK as a starter.
Edited by iguana on Monday 26th January 13:56
Andy97, as others have pointed out already a good starting point will be 4-deg negative camber on front axle, 2-deg negative on the rear axle. Zero toe front and rear, or 0.10 degrees toe in at the rear (not clever enough to express in minutes lol).
Ride height wise, I've been taking some ideas from the yank forums where some people do serious racing in these cars. The general consensus amongst those is 320mm up front when measured from the wheel arch centre (the centre of the curve following the shape of the wheel) to the wheel centre (centre bore hole) with the car on the ground, and anywhere from 300-310mm on the rear, again measured the same way.
After the above is set and tracked, I would look to check the roll centre of the car to see if any adjustment is required to complete the setup. The only thing left then is adjusting the shock stiffness to work with your springs and the track in question.
That's what I'm planning to do with ours, when we eventually buy the suspension setup and camber arms/top mounts to allow us to adjust the geo in that way. For now we will be hillbillying it about and having "fun" whilst refreshing all the bushes and the components that make up the drivetrain/suspension a bit at a time.
One thing I personally would be looking to do is check the health of the car top to bottom. There is little point spending money on geo if you have tired bushes, ball joints, arms, etc. Any alignment that is done with iffy/worn parts in place can be a waste of time and resources. So I would bear than in mind first and foremost.
Humour
Ride height wise, I've been taking some ideas from the yank forums where some people do serious racing in these cars. The general consensus amongst those is 320mm up front when measured from the wheel arch centre (the centre of the curve following the shape of the wheel) to the wheel centre (centre bore hole) with the car on the ground, and anywhere from 300-310mm on the rear, again measured the same way.
After the above is set and tracked, I would look to check the roll centre of the car to see if any adjustment is required to complete the setup. The only thing left then is adjusting the shock stiffness to work with your springs and the track in question.
That's what I'm planning to do with ours, when we eventually buy the suspension setup and camber arms/top mounts to allow us to adjust the geo in that way. For now we will be hillbillying it about and having "fun" whilst refreshing all the bushes and the components that make up the drivetrain/suspension a bit at a time.
One thing I personally would be looking to do is check the health of the car top to bottom. There is little point spending money on geo if you have tired bushes, ball joints, arms, etc. Any alignment that is done with iffy/worn parts in place can be a waste of time and resources. So I would bear than in mind first and foremost.
Humour
Edited by Humour on Monday 26th January 18:11
Hmmm an E36 thread I seem to have missed before. Very unusual. I'm not sure if my lowly 318 is worth a mention here. But I have found the very best upgrade recently for track fun, is tyres. A decent set of semi slicks transformed what I could do on track. I know Toyo R888 are the benchmark and not exactly cheap. But I went with Nankang NS2R. I know Nankang would normally come under the ditch finder category when it comes to road tyres. But these really are great. They were also one third of the price of some toyos.
I recognise a lot of the contributors to this thread. Maybe we should all get together at a track one day.
I recognise a lot of the contributors to this thread. Maybe we should all get together at a track one day.
Hey guys. Good suggestion hamster69 about a PH track day 
We are going to Bedford on March 30th for our second shakedown now that we have addressed a few areas on the car. Still sooooo much to do however
perhaps later on in the summer when everyone has lined their ducks up.......
I agree in principle about tyres, but I also believe that putting on sticky tyres can also mask issues with the setup which is why we are staying on the ditch finders for the foreseeable future. Our plan is to improve the setup on low grip and thus low(ish) corner speeds and only move towards more grip once the car is in a state able to take advantage of this on the limit whilst staying predictable. In our estimations we are still a year away from being there judging by the pace and cost of prep thus far.
Humour
We are going to Bedford on March 30th for our second shakedown now that we have addressed a few areas on the car. Still sooooo much to do however
perhaps later on in the summer when everyone has lined their ducks up.......I agree in principle about tyres, but I also believe that putting on sticky tyres can also mask issues with the setup which is why we are staying on the ditch finders for the foreseeable future. Our plan is to improve the setup on low grip and thus low(ish) corner speeds and only move towards more grip once the car is in a state able to take advantage of this on the limit whilst staying predictable. In our estimations we are still a year away from being there judging by the pace and cost of prep thus far.
Humour
Thanks for the feedback Cmoose. I have done alot of reading on coils and I agree it is definitely a key component of the suspension and geometry system to get right. It's on the list of things to do
I have read though that the GAZ coils are under damped and that feedback has come through different forums regarding different cars, I have seen at least three different reports mentioning the same limitation, amongst others that are claiming the springs are too soft for track (as supplied). I appreciate that you can change the latter to your own spec, which is great, however if the shocks are at their limits, going stiffer with the springs may (if the reports are accurate about the shocks capacity) not necessarily yield the best results.
On the topic of coils, initial consideration was HSD Monopro, however with further research done, we are realising that a best/sufficiently capable long term solution can only be had above the £1.6K mark, so now we are considering KW Clubsport or AST 5000 series, both of which tip the 2K mark with adjustable top mounts added. The piggy bank needs some heavy investment this year lol
A little update following our second shakedown on March 30th, prior to the day we managed to renew the brakes, fitted Brembo Hi Carbon disks front and rear and EBC Blue NDX pads front and rear, changed the rubber sliders to brass and stainless slider pins, added to this we fitted front cooling duct plates and joined up ducting to the intakes I had previously prepared in place of the fog lights. Brakes revision complete, we were ready to go.
We had no brake issues all day and to say we tried to cook the brakes was an understatement We immediately managed to do 10 hot lap stints (previously only 3-4 before having to cool off), and that continued throughout the day. Looking back each driver was doing around 40-45 minute sessions on track. No hint of brake fade, judder, or lack of feel and interestingly the front tyres were not heating up as much as they did previously on a much colder day. Also noticeably the front brakes were cooler than the rears when checked immediately after a session. Overall, the car did double the mileage of the previous attempt and we burned through two full tanks of fuel in one day, compared to one on the first shakedown. Very happy with the track time we got out of the day.
We had an E92 M3 and a Z4M both cook their brakes in front of us and nearly hit the grass at the hairpin on the long back straight on Bedford GT. Tbh it was their fault as they were intent on not allowing us past as we creeped up to them on track. I assume because there was no contest on the straights, they thought they were quicker, so didn't feel the need to make way, eventually they did anyway as their brakes had had enough and we waved as we drive past online hehe. Suffice it to say in the pits they were looking at us rather oddly and another chap with an E46 M3 came up to ask us if our car was an M3
I guess this is a very good example for "fit for purpose" as our car never felt like it was having a hard time throughout the day and the only reason we had to stop after 10 laps is due to the drivers getting tired lol.
The bloody cam cover gasket has started to leak again from the same place though, which is disappointing as I changed it and the associated rubber bolt seals during the brake system refresh. I think either the bolts have un-torqued or we have a cracked cam cover, since we used a Victor Reinz gasket and BMW OEM bolt/stud seals. I have to re-investigate that area again, but I hope it will not be a recurring issue after every track day
Humour
I have read though that the GAZ coils are under damped and that feedback has come through different forums regarding different cars, I have seen at least three different reports mentioning the same limitation, amongst others that are claiming the springs are too soft for track (as supplied). I appreciate that you can change the latter to your own spec, which is great, however if the shocks are at their limits, going stiffer with the springs may (if the reports are accurate about the shocks capacity) not necessarily yield the best results.
On the topic of coils, initial consideration was HSD Monopro, however with further research done, we are realising that a best/sufficiently capable long term solution can only be had above the £1.6K mark, so now we are considering KW Clubsport or AST 5000 series, both of which tip the 2K mark with adjustable top mounts added. The piggy bank needs some heavy investment this year lol
A little update following our second shakedown on March 30th, prior to the day we managed to renew the brakes, fitted Brembo Hi Carbon disks front and rear and EBC Blue NDX pads front and rear, changed the rubber sliders to brass and stainless slider pins, added to this we fitted front cooling duct plates and joined up ducting to the intakes I had previously prepared in place of the fog lights. Brakes revision complete, we were ready to go.
We had no brake issues all day and to say we tried to cook the brakes was an understatement
We immediately managed to do 10 hot lap stints (previously only 3-4 before having to cool off), and that continued throughout the day. Looking back each driver was doing around 40-45 minute sessions on track. No hint of brake fade, judder, or lack of feel and interestingly the front tyres were not heating up as much as they did previously on a much colder day. Also noticeably the front brakes were cooler than the rears when checked immediately after a session. Overall, the car did double the mileage of the previous attempt and we burned through two full tanks of fuel in one day, compared to one on the first shakedown. Very happy with the track time we got out of the day.We had an E92 M3 and a Z4M both cook their brakes in front of us and nearly hit the grass at the hairpin on the long back straight on Bedford GT. Tbh it was their fault as they were intent on not allowing us past as we creeped up to them on track. I assume because there was no contest on the straights, they thought they were quicker, so didn't feel the need to make way, eventually they did anyway as their brakes had had enough and we waved as we drive past online hehe. Suffice it to say in the pits they were looking at us rather oddly and another chap with an E46 M3 came up to ask us if our car was an M3
I guess this is a very good example for "fit for purpose" as our car never felt like it was having a hard time throughout the day and the only reason we had to stop after 10 laps is due to the drivers getting tired lol.
The bloody cam cover gasket has started to leak again from the same place though, which is disappointing as I changed it and the associated rubber bolt seals during the brake system refresh. I think either the bolts have un-torqued or we have a cracked cam cover, since we used a Victor Reinz gasket and BMW OEM bolt/stud seals. I have to re-investigate that area again, but I hope it will not be a recurring issue after every track day
Humour
Edited by Humour on Wednesday 8th April 21:54
Edited by Humour on Wednesday 8th April 22:02
That sounds like great progress, Humour, glad to hear the car is going so well!
Brake cooling is next on my hit list, I'm sorting out a couple of suspension niggles later today but I've been looking at replacing the backing plates with cooling duct inlets. Where did you get yours from? Bimmerzone's ones look pretty good, but costly, expensive enough that I'm thinking of removing my existing plates and taking them to a fabricator instead!
Brake cooling is next on my hit list, I'm sorting out a couple of suspension niggles later today but I've been looking at replacing the backing plates with cooling duct inlets. Where did you get yours from? Bimmerzone's ones look pretty good, but costly, expensive enough that I'm thinking of removing my existing plates and taking them to a fabricator instead!
Hi Sam, looking at the picture the plates are the exact same one's we fitted. We didn't buy through Bimmerworld though, their delivery charges are extortionate. Also we only bought the plates, nothing else. The other parts we bought locally, or made up (e.g. the air intakes in the fog light locations). I'll see if I can dig up the supplier and post back, I remember he is an obscure one though.
@Cmoose, thanks for the confirmation. I agree about the value for money. The dampers is one area I'm not certain I want to compromise too much on though. In my mind springs are available from many places and custom wound springs are not too expensive to have made, so when buying coilovers you pay for the dampers essentially. In which case if I'm having to drop a grand out of my wallet I prefer to get parts that are matched and of good quality to hopefully translate into performance with consistency and longevity, even if it means throwing another 500+ quid in the mix. Don't get me wrong, I'm not made of money and I have to sacrifice heavily in other areas, although it does help to co-own the car with a mate, so his wallet will be taking a heavy hit too when we get to the suspension lol.
@Andyiley, thanks for the feedback Andy, I had previously spotted the Spax, but couldn't find any meaningful feedback. Can you please shed some light on the spring rates you are running? Other things of interest are whether front or rear adjustments are even left to right (e.g. Front +4 clicks from Soft left plus right) and generally some feedback on your setup you have settled on after tinkering I read some info on HSD's or BC Racing's where some poor guy had to have +8 clicks and +12 clicks on his shocks on the front axle just to get the same resistance from the dampers across the axle, which is no bueno and he wasn't a happy bunny (to be expected).
It's definitely a lottery out there from what I have read thus far, so the old rule of measure (research in this case) 15 times and cut once is very much applicable on the subject of suspension imo.......
On a different note, I'm just back from Shrewsbury today having collected a new 6 puck ceramic clutch plate and an M3 evo Sachs pressure plate and release bearing (the latter I think is shot) as our clutch and release bearing are way past their best, the cat inside the gearbox is getting louder and probably looking for a way out, hehe. Hopefully a new lightweight solid flywheel will soon be on order also, so the rear end is being pushed back to be preceeded by the clutch, flywheel and short shifter works before we look towards another day out on track
If we are lucky we may be ready for a day out near the end of May. I will check back to see what you guys are doing in the coming month or two once we are ready because it would be cool to organise a common day out and meet you guys as well as other E36's on a day out
Humour
@Cmoose, thanks for the confirmation. I agree about the value for money. The dampers is one area I'm not certain I want to compromise too much on though. In my mind springs are available from many places and custom wound springs are not too expensive to have made, so when buying coilovers you pay for the dampers essentially. In which case if I'm having to drop a grand out of my wallet I prefer to get parts that are matched and of good quality to hopefully translate into performance with consistency and longevity, even if it means throwing another 500+ quid in the mix. Don't get me wrong, I'm not made of money and I have to sacrifice heavily in other areas, although it does help to co-own the car with a mate, so his wallet will be taking a heavy hit too when we get to the suspension lol.
@Andyiley, thanks for the feedback Andy, I had previously spotted the Spax, but couldn't find any meaningful feedback. Can you please shed some light on the spring rates you are running? Other things of interest are whether front or rear adjustments are even left to right (e.g. Front +4 clicks from Soft left plus right) and generally some feedback on your setup you have settled on after tinkering
I read some info on HSD's or BC Racing's where some poor guy had to have +8 clicks and +12 clicks on his shocks on the front axle just to get the same resistance from the dampers across the axle, which is no bueno and he wasn't a happy bunny (to be expected).It's definitely a lottery out there from what I have read thus far, so the old rule of measure (research in this case) 15 times and cut once is very much applicable on the subject of suspension imo.......
On a different note, I'm just back from Shrewsbury today having collected a new 6 puck ceramic clutch plate and an M3 evo Sachs pressure plate and release bearing (the latter I think is shot) as our clutch and release bearing are way past their best, the cat inside the gearbox is getting louder and probably looking for a way out, hehe. Hopefully a new lightweight solid flywheel will soon be on order also, so the rear end is being pushed back to be preceeded by the clutch, flywheel and short shifter works before we look towards another day out on track
If we are lucky we may be ready for a day out near the end of May. I will check back to see what you guys are doing in the coming month or two once we are ready because it would be cool to organise a common day out and meet you guys as well as other E36's on a day out
Humour
Edited by Humour on Saturday 11th April 19:20
I am not as far into the technicalities this as you are in certain respects, so am 100% standard spring rates front & rear on the Spax set up, all in all I have found them to be excellent everywhere I have taken the car.
I originally had a Jamex set & they were cr@p, so they had to go. At the time I could only just afford the Spax, but am very glad I did.
I am around 30mm lower than standard all round, with 3.5 degree of front camber & 1.5 degrees of rear.
On the road I drop the damping to softest -1 (just so that it is on a definite click) and on track I generally settle around hardest -6 clicks front -4 rear.
I find the balance of the car is 100% neutral, and with the LSD & 245s all round, whilst I can slide a bit if I feel the need to, it is pretty much on rails in the corners even on the tighter stretches of Cadwell or Blyton for instance.
I originally had a Jamex set & they were cr@p, so they had to go. At the time I could only just afford the Spax, but am very glad I did.
I am around 30mm lower than standard all round, with 3.5 degree of front camber & 1.5 degrees of rear.
On the road I drop the damping to softest -1 (just so that it is on a definite click) and on track I generally settle around hardest -6 clicks front -4 rear.
I find the balance of the car is 100% neutral, and with the LSD & 245s all round, whilst I can slide a bit if I feel the need to, it is pretty much on rails in the corners even on the tighter stretches of Cadwell or Blyton for instance.
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