BMW E36 328 Track Car - Advice?

[Humour]

Thanks for the feedback Andy. I will review the RSX series once again once we get to a position to invest in the suspension setup.

Out of curiosity, what width wheels are you running to run 245 wide tyres? Also what wheels specifically are you using?

@McSam, sam I dug out the supplier re; the cooling plates, Gruvenparts I spoke to a chap called Paul (MD of the company iirc). He did his best to minimise on the shipping charges, so definitely a cheaper route than the other place

Humour

[andyiley]

7.5" old style "motorsport" M copies.

Although they are just about to be scrapped, as I have a set of Alpina lookey likeys to use also in 7.5" lying round.

Edit: The more I think about it the more I think they are probably either 8 or 8.5".

Edited by andyiley on Friday 17th April 06:32

[McSam]

Thanks a lot for that supplier, looks very reasonable, I'll give them a go!

Next thing is rear brake cooling, after finding a cooldown lap got my fronts down to about 80°C but the rears no cooler than 170°C, sometimes north of 200! There's buggerall air circulation back there, and with the handbrake mounted to the backing plate I can't think of much of a solution other than ducting air to the caliper.

[Hamster69]

I have never had overly hot brake since I started running performance friction Z rated pads.

[iguana]

Yip rears do get v hot & just don't cool much on cool down laps vs fronts, I roughly wear 2x rear sets pads to 1 front, I was eying up a Porsche type idea of a scoop on the wishbone, type idea, maybe utilising a coke bottle cut in half & cable ties or a small pies of guttering etc, but maybe a Gt3 arm scoop coidl be adapted, they are cheap enough, link of some fitted here

& quote from Das Chin-


"The 4 ducts cost £20 all in from the Tonbridge Porsche opc. I could not believe how cheap they were. I thought everyone was at least £50 in there!!

997 GT3 Front Ducts - £2.18 each plus vat
997.341.483.92 (part number)
997.341.484.92

997 Rears - £6.30 each plus vat
997.331.487.92
997.331.488.92"

http://www.northloop.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?50...


if you not on northloop might not be able to see, so i'll try & paste pics-

Edited by iguana on Friday 17th April 11:01

[McSam]

Hamster69 said:

I have never had overly hot brake since I started running performance friction Z rated pads.

I've got Mintex 1155 front and 1144 rear (best they do in standard 328i rear size) on the way, I'm hoping this will improve matters, but some cooling is always welcome. Have you ever measured the temperatures? I wasn't getting fade at those temps, but was concerned by the obvious imbalance in the cooling flow.

Iguana, that's superb! I'm stunned how cheap those parts are, and it's an idea I hadn't considered before. It must be plenty effective for Porsche to have used it on several generations of GT3.. obviously all underfloor airflow is different and it likely won't work quite as well on our cars with messier underfloors and higher ground clearances, but still. I'll take a closer look at the shape of the trailing arm next time I'm under the car, see how well the parts might adapt.

Some great info in that Northloop thread, thanks for sharing!

ETA - Parts currently on back order it's not clear whether they're being superseded by 991 parts or they've simply ran out at the moment, will update if I hear any more.

Edited by McSam on Friday 17th April 17:45

[Humour]

iguana said:

Yip rears do get v hot & just don't cool much on cool down laps vs fronts, I roughly wear 2x rear sets pads to 1 front, I was eying up a Porsche type idea of a scoop on the wishbone, type idea, maybe utilising a coke bottle cut in half & cable ties or a small pies of guttering etc, but maybe a Gt3 arm scoop coidl be adapted, they are cheap enough, link of some fitted here

& quote from Das Chin-


"The 4 ducts cost £20 all in from the Tonbridge Porsche opc. I could not believe how cheap they were. I thought everyone was at least £50 in there!!

997 GT3 Front Ducts - £2.18 each plus vat
997.341.483.92 (part number)
997.341.484.92

997 Rears - £6.30 each plus vat
997.331.487.92
997.331.488.92"

Thanks Iguana, looks possibly like a plausible solution for the rears.

I had another PH'er driving an S1 K20 Elise provide me with a link to an all around lower tech solution from the Honda 2K forums in the US. Source which also looks doable, if a suitable mounting point can be found on the E36 rear end. Got to love the DIY spirit of those guys

I think the rears don't need much, but some airflow will make a difference as opposed to none.

We are currently running EBC Blue NDX pads as a 'in budget' starting point, to be followed by PF Z series when finished with. Now with the front cooling in place, it was very evident that the cooling efficiency front to rear was massively different. On our first go with standard everything, our tyre pressures were going up by 7psi both front and rear. After fitting the front cooling solution, the fronts only went up by 2-3psi where as the rears were still up by 7psi (starting at 28psi prior to a run and ending up at 35+psi immediately following a run). It became evident after our comparison before and after that the amount of heat retained by the brakes makes a substantial difference to tyre pressures as well, so the effect of cooling extends not only to efficiency and pad life, but also tyre pressures and possibly tyre wear.

In my mind this is worthwhile doing even if performance isn't gained, as it will eventually reflect on spend against consumables.

Humour

P.S. Sam, I'm the guy who posted on your latest Bedford you tube vids btw. Mum having a go was class!!!

[McSam]

That S2000 thread is another interesting approach, but he's made the mistake of routing the air directly onto the disc face, which is a no-no. To avoid thermal shock you want it routed into the centre of the disc, so that the air is forced out through the vanes and cools the whole disc evenly. This has the advantage of cooling the caliper as well. It's academic for us, because with the handbrake mounted to the rear backing plates we can't do this anyway, but it just stood out!

The E36 has screw mounts for rear tyre deflectors in pretty much the right place, so maybe we could use those to do something similar. I guess the best place to run the ducting to would be directly to the caliper, it would end up quite long but that's not such an issue at the rear, not like the wheel is going to move very far to interfere with it. Definitely some food for thought next time I'm looking at the rear.

Tyre pressures are a good point, I forgot to mention that I noticed exactly the same, rear pressures rising about 3psi more than the fronts even when parked up for a few minutes. I think radiation from the much hotter rear brakes is responsible, and my car doesn't even have upgraded front ducting, just the standard grille-to-wheel-well inlets!

I was tempted by Performance Friction Z-rated pads but wasn't completely sure how suitable they are for heavy track use. They're sold as the more road-biased ones, while the PFxx compounds are the really serious stuff, but with the price tag to match. How well have yours lasted, Hamster? And where did you get them from? UK distributors seem thin on the ground.


ETA - Ah, right, I wondered if the comments were from someone there on the day. Yeah, I was really impressed with her, she already wants to go back for more! Between my fiancée, my mum, the car's previous owner wanting a go again and an increasing queue of mates, I'll never be short of someone to take to a track day

Edited by McSam on Saturday 18th April 00:55

[Hamster69]

McSam said:

I was tempted by Performance Friction Z-rated pads but wasn't completely sure how suitable they are for heavy track use. They're sold as the more road-biased ones, while the PFxx compounds are the really serious stuff, but with the price tag to match. How well have yours lasted, Hamster? And where did you get them from? UK distributors seem thin on the ground.

You made me go and read my own thread there as I couldn't remember when they were fitted. The fronts have now done, Donington, Bedford, Oulton park and Brandshatch. I wouldn't say they were 50% worn out yet. They are so much better than the DS 3000 I was running which are advertised as track only. I'm taking them out today to deglaze them so I will update my thread later and include a link to the shop when I can find it.

[Humour]

McSam said:

That S2000 thread is another interesting approach, but he's made the mistake of routing the air directly onto the disc face, which is a no-no. To avoid thermal shock you want it routed into the centre of the disc, so that the air is forced out through the vanes and cools the whole disc evenly. This has the advantage of cooling the caliper as well. It's academic for us, because with the handbrake mounted to the rear backing plates we can't do this anyway, but it just stood out!

The E36 has screw mounts for rear tyre deflectors in pretty much the right place, so maybe we could use those to do something similar. I guess the best place to run the ducting to would be directly to the caliper, it would end up quite long but that's not such an issue at the rear, not like the wheel is going to move very far to interfere with it. Definitely some food for thought next time I'm looking at the rear.

Yup, I'm aware that the S2K setup isn't ideal. I was thinking the same when I read through the thread.

It's a shame I didn't spend enough time examining the rear end when the new disks and pads went in (too many jobs to do in one day), I actually do not know where the intake of the rear disk cooling vanes actually are, are they on the front face or the rear face of the disk? If on the rear, then something can be integrated into the rear dust shield and made to push air into the vane intake, by a friendly metal fabricator. I'm left with the feeling though that on the rear disk the intake is on the front face, which if it is, will make providing air to the correct place a PITA, if doable at all. Personally I don't see an advantage in cooling the caliper, as the friction turned into heat is absorbed by the disk, in turn transferred to, the caliper, hub, etc. Hence cooling the disk will be most beneficial.

I hate doing jobs twice, but I fear I will have to take the rear assembly apart again to examine it properly and formulate a plan.

Humour

[McSam]

Thanks for the detail Hamster, they sound plenty durable. If I'm not totally happy with the Mintex offering I'll try those next, would appreciate it if you find the supplier

Humour, air can only be fed into the rear disc vanes from the outside, they're closed on the inside to stop crap getting into the handbrake assembly so we're buggered on that score. Even if you found discs that breathed from the inside, I don't see how you'd get air inside the hat, not without deleting the handbrake. The hub is pretty meaty thanks to the driveshaft going through it.

Cooling the caliper will be effective. It'd be nicer to get air in the disc vanes because that cools all of the disc surface as well as the hub, wheels and caliper, but it's not correct to assume the disc absorbs all the heat during braking. Bear in mind you only have friction at the pads' contact with the disc, this is where all the heat is generated and that that point, it's all shrouded by the caliper. A very significant proportion of that energy goes into the pads, which conduct very efficiently to the caliper. Disc radiation to the caliper is also very high. If you measure temperatures around the braking system immediately after use, you'll find it all at pretty much exactly the same temperature. Running air to the inside face of the caliper would be very beneficial - take heat away from there, and you'll cool the whole assembly thanks to its excellent conduction. It'll help overall temperatures quite a bit, but importantly for us the inside pad is the critical part in the onset of fade, and now you're cooling it directly you should be able to run much longer and get better pad life.

[Hamster69]

Took this while underneath a brand new Cayman this morning. The 911 is basically the same.



That is defiantly directing the air onto the surface of the disc.

Edited by Hamster69 on Sunday 19th April 08:46

[Hamster69]

Also took my pads out to deglaze them yesterday. Like I say they have done 4 track days.



So actually I would say only 20% worn if that. Z Rated defiantly the way to go for me. I get them from part box.

http://www.part-box.com/product_info.php?products_...

The rears are available there to.

[iguana]

It's such a confusing area with pads on these, pretty much the only pad all agree on in use with the stock single pots or aftermarket big brake set ups is Pagid RS29 all round, the only issue is the high cost.

Carbon Lorraine rc6 is a popular one, not as expensive as pagids but a step up from the cheapies discussed here so far, they do stop car v well, as per most agressive race pads do eat discs tho.

My pal rates his 1166 set up.

I personally run on Ebc yellows front & rear on both a track m3 & track 328.(quite light built cars tho) Yes they do lack ultimate stopping power, but I run slicks & really its only if running 2 up & going for it that they struggle, EDP on shorter tracks, One up or on big tracks I can cope. Tbh if I couldn't buy them at race price I'd go another route, but for the price of sub £100 front & rears delivered, that's good enough for me.

I have been murdered under brakes by much heavier full weight m3s that run a big AP set up with RS29s but to compare a combined cost of near £4k brakes vs £100 & on stock sizes I'm happy enough with the result!

Edited by iguana on Sunday 19th April 09:32

[iguana]

Yellows in action 2 up at spa, forward to 6.30 for best bit, fun with gt2 with over double the bhp
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dViLbKLyvKc

[iguana]

& here a view of my far smaller budget build track 328 from on board Whooshers golf, again on yellows, you can see I do loose out a bit under brakes into the chichane mainly- vs his lighter car with I think running carbon Lorraine rc6? He can confirm I'm sure.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T9AvixJipr0

[McSam]

Hamster69 said:

Took this while underneath a brand new Cayman this morning. The 911 is basically the same.



That is defiantly directing the air onto the surface of the disc.

That's a nice solution too, would articulate with the wheel so no worries about fouling the disc no matter how close you put it. Like it. Directing air to the disc face in that manner is fine, because you cool a very wide area and the caliper as well, my issue with the S2000 setup above was directing air onto just one small concentrated area of disc. I wish we had as much space to play with as that Cayman, there's so much room for activities in there

Your pads look excellent for that amount of use and don't look like they've got too hot at any point, nice one. Thanks for the link to part-box, they're a little more expensive there than Bimmerworld but I bet delivery would make up for that.


Iguana, that's cracking footage from Spa, your car looks superb and you've got me itching to go there.. Which slicks are you using? Certainly had confidence on the brakes into Bus Stop, the stopping power stood out most there.

[iguana]

Mcsam- old yoko wtcc hobbies, they are old & a long long way past best, od already done 2 full days at 'ring on those & at least 1 or 2 uk days plus whatever they had when raced on, they were pretty shot, not really much more grip & perhaps even less than a decent new track tyre in honesty, except the big bonus being cracking turn in due to hard sidewalls & they were circa £20/25 a tyre bought used, so just a tad cheaper than a direzza or cup or khumo etc.

Edited by iguana on Thursday 23 April 20:39

[Humour]

I've seen the Spa footage ages ago. I had not seen the Snetterton vid before however. Thanks for sharing. I have seen footage of Whoosher's Golf but that was Turbo charged and on that video it looked like the car was in an NA state still.

I have a couple of questions is you don't mind Iguana. The 328 looked like it was leaning a fair bit in turns, what suspension are you/were you running on the car when that vid was taken?

I think the Spa video is great, but not really a fair comparison if the GT2 was running sport tyres and you slicks I'm curious however, what size were the slicks and what width wheels were they fitted to? Presumably 17" diameter and presumably square setup?

Humour

[iguana]

Humour- can see where your login is from- Snett? Ha no that's Thruxton, yes whoosher golf was still NA then, heck it takes a gt3 to keep up now its turbo! Even my M3 is leagues away, let alone that tatty 328.

Suspension on the 328 is BC coilies, the regular non inverted hobbies, not sure on the rates I would assume the normal set up which is I think 8/8, it doesn't feel particularly soft when driving, but yeh she does look to lean a fair bit, very worn out stock bushes tho all need changing she was bucking around a tad scarily at church, arbs are stock, no spacers on front, not mega camber (my m3 @3.7 deg neg) think this was 2.5 area, 328 was on stock m3 wheels yip square, think they are just 7.5j (I'll check) tho 240/610/17 m3@ spa same tyre but on 8j square team dynamics.

Spa gt2 was on cups, I'm just awesome ha ha. Nah I know the driver we had a good bit if banter after that, he isn't that experienced on track, that car in the right hands on those tyres would utterly murder me by 20 secs a lap easy.

Edited by iguana on Friday 24th April 15:04