BMW E36 328 Track Car - Advice?
Discussion
Hi all,
yes I know its the old cliché E36 track car perhaps now long in the tooth, nevertheless two friends and I have committed and purchased a 328 Sport Coupe for the obligatory fun time without breaking the bank....or the wife's breaking our heads lol
I have been a passive member here for a few years and have spent countless hours reading up on the subject of the E36 as a track tool, on the back of which some great advice was found and followed, so thanks to all contributors on the subject going back to posts made in 2007
Now onto the car. We purchased in July this year, and spent the following four months on and off buying parts and carrying out mechanical maintenance and various necessary upgrades towards reliability, with a couple of upgrades added towards performance along the way.
We took the car on it's shakedown on December 1st to Bedford GT circuit through javelin, primarily to find out if all was well mechanically. Not withstanding a couple of adjustments with the spanners after the siting laps, the car performed above expectations, so by he end it was being chucked about and abused a little to ensure nothing would break close to the limit. In that regard we are 98% satisfied all is well as it stands with exception to the brake pads and discs which were as it stood after purchase.
I have a query however that I have been unable to find an answer to neither on UK nor US forums, so I decided to post here and ask for some advice.
The car came equipped with cheap coilovers (JOM I believe) at time of purchase and whilst this is planned to be addressed further down the line, our preparation plan is going to be focusing on refreshing various other underpinnings first.
So to my query, I have read in various posts on the interweb that fitting an uprated front ARB is a good way to go. With that said however, in none of those cases were coilover setups mentioned in conjunction with an uprated front ARB. My understanding of car balance tells me that fitting a bigger ARB upfront only is likely to induce understeer. Further not withstanding budget coilovers, my experience with coilovers thus far has proven to significantly reduce body roll, at least as far as fast road cars I have owned are concerned (none have been BMW). My query therefore is with respect to the benefit or lack there of, installing an uprated front ARB on the E36 platform that is already using coilovers.
With regards to the current setup chassis wise:
1. Jom coilovers (height adjustable only).
2. Treehouse Racing (US based) eccentric lilipops fitted.
2. M3 front cross member fitted along with an M X-brace.
3. M3 Evo engine mounts.
4. rear end is currently standard (but is next on the plan for a complete overhaul, following the brakes overhaul).
There are other upgrades already installed but they are not chassis/suspension related so not relevant, but can list if required.
The car is fully stripped out fitted with two bucket seats and only the top part of the dash remaining.
Any views on the subject are welcome from those with more experience than us.
Many thanks and Merry Christmas to everyone :-)
Humour
yes I know its the old cliché E36 track car perhaps now long in the tooth, nevertheless two friends and I have committed and purchased a 328 Sport Coupe for the obligatory fun time without breaking the bank....or the wife's breaking our heads lol
I have been a passive member here for a few years and have spent countless hours reading up on the subject of the E36 as a track tool, on the back of which some great advice was found and followed, so thanks to all contributors on the subject going back to posts made in 2007
Now onto the car. We purchased in July this year, and spent the following four months on and off buying parts and carrying out mechanical maintenance and various necessary upgrades towards reliability, with a couple of upgrades added towards performance along the way.
We took the car on it's shakedown on December 1st to Bedford GT circuit through javelin, primarily to find out if all was well mechanically. Not withstanding a couple of adjustments with the spanners after the siting laps, the car performed above expectations, so by he end it was being chucked about and abused a little to ensure nothing would break close to the limit. In that regard we are 98% satisfied all is well as it stands with exception to the brake pads and discs which were as it stood after purchase.
I have a query however that I have been unable to find an answer to neither on UK nor US forums, so I decided to post here and ask for some advice.
The car came equipped with cheap coilovers (JOM I believe) at time of purchase and whilst this is planned to be addressed further down the line, our preparation plan is going to be focusing on refreshing various other underpinnings first.
So to my query, I have read in various posts on the interweb that fitting an uprated front ARB is a good way to go. With that said however, in none of those cases were coilover setups mentioned in conjunction with an uprated front ARB. My understanding of car balance tells me that fitting a bigger ARB upfront only is likely to induce understeer. Further not withstanding budget coilovers, my experience with coilovers thus far has proven to significantly reduce body roll, at least as far as fast road cars I have owned are concerned (none have been BMW). My query therefore is with respect to the benefit or lack there of, installing an uprated front ARB on the E36 platform that is already using coilovers.
With regards to the current setup chassis wise:
1. Jom coilovers (height adjustable only).
2. Treehouse Racing (US based) eccentric lilipops fitted.
2. M3 front cross member fitted along with an M X-brace.
3. M3 Evo engine mounts.
4. rear end is currently standard (but is next on the plan for a complete overhaul, following the brakes overhaul).
There are other upgrades already installed but they are not chassis/suspension related so not relevant, but can list if required.
The car is fully stripped out fitted with two bucket seats and only the top part of the dash remaining.
Any views on the subject are welcome from those with more experience than us.
Many thanks and Merry Christmas to everyone :-)
Humour
I've had a lot of track 36s, best handling one I've had & still have is on stock m3 ARBs. I have had one with eibachs, was OK, personally I think bit if a waste of time just use decent suspension, I.e not the lidl jibs you've got, up the spring rates & use stock arbs. Just a front arb doesn't sound a great idea to me.
Edited by iguana on Tuesday 23 December 21:00
Hi, I've been running an E36 328i track car over this year and have probably read much the same selection of build threads as you! My car is run on a budget so any changes are carefully considered. It has a build thread of its own, link in my profile garage if you're interested.
I would echo the above advice about ditching the JOMS. I've driven a car on those, on nice road Bilsteins and on my HSD Dualtech coilovers and the latter are streets ahead for dedicated track use. On road tyres roll is almost zero, but the damping is very impressive and adjustable at all corners. They also come with new rear top mounts (a must on E36 as they can punch through the old rubber ones) and camber/caster front top mounts. £550 from Driftworks, best investment I've made in a car.
My car feels very well balanced and is quite neutral with this setup, I'm very happy and don't feel the need to play with the ARBs yet. If I do, I'll go for standard M3 parts front and rear, certainly not one end only unless you had a major imbalance to sort out. I expect that to be plenty as they're quite meaty and the car is lighter than an M3.
If I were you, my route would be proper coilovers and a good geo setup (typical track settings are -2.5deg camber front, -1.5 rear, about 10-20mins toe out front and dead straight to 10mins toe in rear). With that done, you'll have a stable platform and can get an idea what fine-tuning is needed with ARBs.
Hope you have lots of fun with the car! Got some photos? Does it have an LSD?
I would echo the above advice about ditching the JOMS. I've driven a car on those, on nice road Bilsteins and on my HSD Dualtech coilovers and the latter are streets ahead for dedicated track use. On road tyres roll is almost zero, but the damping is very impressive and adjustable at all corners. They also come with new rear top mounts (a must on E36 as they can punch through the old rubber ones) and camber/caster front top mounts. £550 from Driftworks, best investment I've made in a car.
My car feels very well balanced and is quite neutral with this setup, I'm very happy and don't feel the need to play with the ARBs yet. If I do, I'll go for standard M3 parts front and rear, certainly not one end only unless you had a major imbalance to sort out. I expect that to be plenty as they're quite meaty and the car is lighter than an M3.
If I were you, my route would be proper coilovers and a good geo setup (typical track settings are -2.5deg camber front, -1.5 rear, about 10-20mins toe out front and dead straight to 10mins toe in rear). With that done, you'll have a stable platform and can get an idea what fine-tuning is needed with ARBs.
Hope you have lots of fun with the car! Got some photos? Does it have an LSD?
@iguana thank you for the feedback. I agree with your line of thought, but thought I would ask here as my knowledge of the E36 platform is very limited.
@McSam also thank you for the feedback Sam. The Joms came with the car, so for now they will be used, but the intention is to get the HSD Monopro coilies eventually so to gain camber and castor adjustment capability up front without breaking the bank. Before we get to the suspension though we have other priorities so we will follow an agreed upgrade path.
Interesting that you suggest 0.10~0.20 degrees toe out at the front. We did a base geo on the car before the track day and asked for zero toe on the front and standard 328 sport toe at the back whilst the rear end is all standard with old bushings in place. When we got the car the rear geo was all over the place and the ditch finder HiFly tyres were squealing on every roundabout at low speeds, which following the geo was corrected and the rear end felt much better even though we are still running the ditch finders until we get the rear end sorted.
The rear shock towers already have reinforcement plates installed top and bottom, this was already on the car when we purchased it, so I think we will be ok until we get the HSD's. We had the M3 front cross member supplied with engine mounts reinforcement plates welded in by Chris at CRM-Tech who supplied the part. We are also planning to have rear chassis reinforcement plates welded in when the rear end is taken out at some point in 2015 to rebuild it.
As far as LSD, the car is a 98 YOM model so ASC+T was fitted from the factory. I was however able to find a rebuilt 40% lock LSD (using 3 clutch plates) along with stronger end cap bolts which I sourced from the US. Also managed to source a used C&P with 3.23 ratio from the EU, both of which are sitting in stock awaiting to be put into the differential during the rear end rebuild, so we will have an LSD in the near future and I cant wait, as the inside wheel spin on track was humorous but rather boring. We have removed the ASC+T system and throttle body so this isn't going to get in the way of the LSD
We have a few other pictures but their file size is too big to upload here despite trying to reduce it. Also had a small video taken by my friend and partner in crime nearing the end of the day at Bedford on his phone, so he had to keep it on the low down when coming into and out of marshal posts for obvious reasonshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3_-jNpag_w
Regards, Humour
@McSam also thank you for the feedback Sam. The Joms came with the car, so for now they will be used, but the intention is to get the HSD Monopro coilies eventually so to gain camber and castor adjustment capability up front without breaking the bank. Before we get to the suspension though we have other priorities so we will follow an agreed upgrade path.
Interesting that you suggest 0.10~0.20 degrees toe out at the front. We did a base geo on the car before the track day and asked for zero toe on the front and standard 328 sport toe at the back whilst the rear end is all standard with old bushings in place. When we got the car the rear geo was all over the place and the ditch finder HiFly tyres were squealing on every roundabout at low speeds, which following the geo was corrected and the rear end felt much better even though we are still running the ditch finders until we get the rear end sorted.
The rear shock towers already have reinforcement plates installed top and bottom, this was already on the car when we purchased it, so I think we will be ok until we get the HSD's. We had the M3 front cross member supplied with engine mounts reinforcement plates welded in by Chris at CRM-Tech who supplied the part. We are also planning to have rear chassis reinforcement plates welded in when the rear end is taken out at some point in 2015 to rebuild it.
As far as LSD, the car is a 98 YOM model so ASC+T was fitted from the factory. I was however able to find a rebuilt 40% lock LSD (using 3 clutch plates) along with stronger end cap bolts which I sourced from the US. Also managed to source a used C&P with 3.23 ratio from the EU, both of which are sitting in stock awaiting to be put into the differential during the rear end rebuild, so we will have an LSD in the near future and I cant wait, as the inside wheel spin on track was humorous but rather boring. We have removed the ASC+T system and throttle body so this isn't going to get in the way of the LSD
We have a few other pictures but their file size is too big to upload here despite trying to reduce it. Also had a small video taken by my friend and partner in crime nearing the end of the day at Bedford on his phone, so he had to keep it on the low down when coming into and out of marshal posts for obvious reasons
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3_-jNpag_wRegards, Humour
Also, what are your views on performance oriented modifications? In particular the exhaust system setup of the M52?
I've been reading that M3 Evo manifolds, centre section and custom cat back or Scorpion equivalents have been used to good effect along with other mods, but the gains relative to the cost have been minimal, other than perhaps loosing a bit more weight compared to the standard exhaust setup. Having looked at the OEM manifolds although tubular the ports mating to the head look quite restrictive, so there may be some value in getting busy with a dremmel, but the OEM item doesn't look like its equal length so not much can be done there without replacing it.
We currently have an M50 manifold and an Alpina 68mm BBTB installed along with a Simota air intake and according to the last owner a remap with an EWS delete and a 7.5Krpm limiter, but the car doesn't feel like it pulls as hard beyond 6.5Krpm, just revving out instead.
Also considering sourcing an M54B30 inlet camshaft, sprocket and Vanos gear to drop in the engine to try and force a bit more air in it. Any thoughts? I know about the S52 cams but they are rocking horse poo as far as I'm concerned.
P.S. In terms of the use for the car, it is 100% track only toy, however we are keeping it road legal as it allows us to drive to the third owner's garage in another town to have work carried out, along with any other garages we need to take the car to for maintenance/development work. At present we do not have the space to accommodate a trailer, or the funds to include something like this in our budget.
regards, Humour.
I've been reading that M3 Evo manifolds, centre section and custom cat back or Scorpion equivalents have been used to good effect along with other mods, but the gains relative to the cost have been minimal, other than perhaps loosing a bit more weight compared to the standard exhaust setup. Having looked at the OEM manifolds although tubular the ports mating to the head look quite restrictive, so there may be some value in getting busy with a dremmel, but the OEM item doesn't look like its equal length so not much can be done there without replacing it.
We currently have an M50 manifold and an Alpina 68mm BBTB installed along with a Simota air intake and according to the last owner a remap with an EWS delete and a 7.5Krpm limiter, but the car doesn't feel like it pulls as hard beyond 6.5Krpm, just revving out instead.
Also considering sourcing an M54B30 inlet camshaft, sprocket and Vanos gear to drop in the engine to try and force a bit more air in it. Any thoughts? I know about the S52 cams but they are rocking horse poo as far as I'm concerned.
P.S. In terms of the use for the car, it is 100% track only toy, however we are keeping it road legal as it allows us to drive to the third owner's garage in another town to have work carried out, along with any other garages we need to take the car to for maintenance/development work. At present we do not have the space to accommodate a trailer, or the funds to include something like this in our budget.
regards, Humour.
Edited by Humour on Wednesday 24th December 10:01
Nice choice of base car. I really like the m52/2.8 engine, so have fitted one to my e21 BMW 316. Cat Cams do a good selection of cams, including a set that are pretty close to the US spec s52 engine.
Also opted to go the ITB route with DTA management, in an effort to maximise performance.
Yes, I could have just bought an s50 or s54 but they're expensive to replace. If my m52 goes pop I can get another for a couple of hundred quid and swap everything across.
Also opted to go the ITB route with DTA management, in an effort to maximise performance.
Yes, I could have just bought an s50 or s54 but they're expensive to replace. If my m52 goes pop I can get another for a couple of hundred quid and swap everything across.
Hi Mark,
I've read through your build thread in the past. Excellent build.
Our budget however is probably less than quarter of yours. ITB's, Cams ect. would be great brand new but way out of budget for us at the moment, plus from what you have said, they are not a straight fit
Anyway, our car needs a fair bit of tidying up in the handling and underpinnings department and that where the funds will be going in first.
An M54B30 camshaft can be had for little under 150 quid from the right seller, a fraction of Cat cams even, hence under consideration. We cant all get our parts for free btw :P
I am interested in details of your 6 branch exhaust manifold however, as I have read allot about RHD models not having much choice in that department. If you are able to share a bit more about your exhaust setup, that would be great
BTW, you might want to look up on you tube an E36 328 running M3 ITB's and pushing out 308BHP in NA form!!! That's over 100bhp/1L, so there is scope for the M52 to make big power relative to its capacity.
regards, Humour
I've read through your build thread in the past. Excellent build.
Our budget however is probably less than quarter of yours. ITB's, Cams ect. would be great brand new but way out of budget for us at the moment, plus from what you have said, they are not a straight fit
Anyway, our car needs a fair bit of tidying up in the handling and underpinnings department and that where the funds will be going in first.An M54B30 camshaft can be had for little under 150 quid from the right seller, a fraction of Cat cams even, hence under consideration. We cant all get our parts for free btw :P
I am interested in details of your 6 branch exhaust manifold however, as I have read allot about RHD models not having much choice in that department. If you are able to share a bit more about your exhaust setup, that would be great
BTW, you might want to look up on you tube an E36 328 running M3 ITB's and pushing out 308BHP in NA form!!! That's over 100bhp/1L, so there is scope for the M52 to make big power relative to its capacity.
regards, Humour
Good choice of car , I too run an e36 328.
My experiences of suspension led me to fit a Spax set up, at a cost of around £650 on the bay that is e. These are damping & ride height adjustable & work very well under a budget.
My other recommendations would be to go to fully poly-bushed set up all round, which can be done pieve-meal as budgets allow.
I went for a bigger rear ARB & standard front, which also works very well with about 5 degrees negative camber at the front & 2 at the rear, and gives a nice neutral set-up.
My experiences of suspension led me to fit a Spax set up, at a cost of around £650 on the bay that is e. These are damping & ride height adjustable & work very well under a budget.
My other recommendations would be to go to fully poly-bushed set up all round, which can be done pieve-meal as budgets allow.
I went for a bigger rear ARB & standard front, which also works very well with about 5 degrees negative camber at the front & 2 at the rear, and gives a nice neutral set-up.
How did your car feel with zero front toe? Mine isn't really finalised and I'm just playing about with it, but so far it feels good with about 15 minutes total toe out on the front. It might be giving rise to some early-mid corner understeer, but the nice sharp turn-in makes up for it and the car's very adjustable on the power anyway. It's only on worn Kumho KU31s at the minute, I imagine I'll have to think a bit harder about the geo when it's on semi slicks. I based my settings on a few M3 owners' findings, they seemed quite well-educated. It's important to have a bit less static camber at the rear, as the rear end has quite significant camber gain, but the front doesn't.
Glad to hear you've already got rear strut top reinforcement plates in, and the HSDs come with their own top mounts so you'll be fine in that department. Rear end reinforcement sounds like a good idea too. Mine seems sound - and a damn sight better than my E46! - but it still wouldn't hurt. I still reckon you might be best off getting the HSDs on sooner rather than later I hesitated but figured if I was going to spend the money anyway, I might as well get them on early, and the huge adjustability they've brought me has meant little need for other parts yet!
Nice work on sourcing an LSD, definitely worthwhile and on my to do list. The car sounds really good in that video, and I like the relocated panel for the windows and hazards! Do you know how much it weighs now?
As for the engine, the OEM exhaust manifolds are absolutely horrible. Many people have reported 10+lb.ft gains across the whole rev range by getting something better flowing in there, and I've seen before/after dynos to prove it, so well worthwhile changing them. The M3 ones are an absolute arse to fit and also quite a lot heavier, in fact, the whole M3 exhaust system is heavier than standard M52 parts so I'd look aftermarket, especially in a track-only car.
Did you fit the M50 manifold and bigger throttle body yourself? If it really does have these and a decent map, it should smash straight past 6500rpm and want to keep right on going, the top end is quite transformed. Not feeling like it wants to rev out sounds a bit like it would be with an M52 inlet still fitted..
My engine is low on the priorities list, but when I get to it, it'll be M50 inlet and proper remap, then exhaust manifolds for Supersprint type (and a Z3 steering rack while I'm in there), then a nice light flywheel if/when the clutch goes. That would probably be plenty for me, and there's a PHer who reached 240bhp with just these pretty cheap modifications.
Glad to hear you've already got rear strut top reinforcement plates in, and the HSDs come with their own top mounts so you'll be fine in that department. Rear end reinforcement sounds like a good idea too. Mine seems sound - and a damn sight better than my E46! - but it still wouldn't hurt. I still reckon you might be best off getting the HSDs on sooner rather than later
I hesitated but figured if I was going to spend the money anyway, I might as well get them on early, and the huge adjustability they've brought me has meant little need for other parts yet!Nice work on sourcing an LSD, definitely worthwhile and on my to do list. The car sounds really good in that video, and I like the relocated panel for the windows and hazards! Do you know how much it weighs now?
As for the engine, the OEM exhaust manifolds are absolutely horrible. Many people have reported 10+lb.ft gains across the whole rev range by getting something better flowing in there, and I've seen before/after dynos to prove it, so well worthwhile changing them. The M3 ones are an absolute arse to fit and also quite a lot heavier, in fact, the whole M3 exhaust system is heavier than standard M52 parts so I'd look aftermarket, especially in a track-only car.
Did you fit the M50 manifold and bigger throttle body yourself? If it really does have these and a decent map, it should smash straight past 6500rpm and want to keep right on going, the top end is quite transformed. Not feeling like it wants to rev out sounds a bit like it would be with an M52 inlet still fitted..
My engine is low on the priorities list, but when I get to it, it'll be M50 inlet and proper remap, then exhaust manifolds for Supersprint type (and a Z3 steering rack while I'm in there), then a nice light flywheel if/when the clutch goes. That would probably be plenty for me, and there's a PHer who reached 240bhp with just these pretty cheap modifications.
You could consider using Jenvey manifolds and M3 ITB's, running the OE ECU in Alpha N mode?
The 6 branch manifold I have was a fluke find on Gumtree. Delivered to my kitchen window for the princely sum of £40! It was brand new and the guy had simply changed his mind about fitting it to his 328. Unfortunately I have no idea what make it is or whether it was for RHD or LHD? When it was tried on my e21 though, only one or two pipes needed alterations. The guys who did the Tig welding were impressed with the quality of materials too. The exhaust is simply a twin pipe 323 style system made from 50mm stainless, with free flow silencers.
Definitely keen to look at stroking capacity out to 3.0!
The 6 branch manifold I have was a fluke find on Gumtree. Delivered to my kitchen window for the princely sum of £40! It was brand new and the guy had simply changed his mind about fitting it to his 328. Unfortunately I have no idea what make it is or whether it was for RHD or LHD? When it was tried on my e21 though, only one or two pipes needed alterations. The guys who did the Tig welding were impressed with the quality of materials too. The exhaust is simply a twin pipe 323 style system made from 50mm stainless, with free flow silencers.
Definitely keen to look at stroking capacity out to 3.0!
@andyiley, thanks for the feedback. 5degrees negative camber in the rear 
that seems like a massive amount to me.
The car will be fully polly bushed. The front end is already done with exception to the ARB bushes. The rear end is planned to be completely disassembled and rebuilt along with the differential at which time the rear end will also be polly bushed throughout. The only indecision at the moment is whether to go solid bushes (aluminium) for the Differential or the Subframe, there are arguments for and against each option, but we are still undecided until parts start getting ordered.
@McSam, its hard to give an informed opinion yet to be honest Sam. The car is mostly as it was bought. Currently it has two different branded tyres on the front axle (Michelin and Pirelli iirc) and HiFly ditch finders on the rear axle. The rears seemed to gain rubber instead of loose it during the shakedown
We have fitted Treehouse racing FCAB eccentric lollipops using a completely different bushing arrangement and are almost solid, but add more caster. We also fitted a Z3 steering rack as one came up for silly money so I couldn't refuse. Along with the M3 Evo engine mounts, and the X-brace, the front end felt quite sharp, pointy, and easy to change direction, but it did feel a tad understeery in the slow hairpins at Bedford. Given that all of the above was done before we had ever taken the car on track, this really is our only baseline, so we don't have anything to compare to yet.
I have to say I don't understand your references to "minutes" of alignment instead of degrees, but maybe its my lack of knowledge about terminologies lol.
Interesting about your view on the OEM manifolds. I have read through many threads suggesting that the gain from manifolds is minimal (5-9bhp range) and that the standard exhaust apart from being heavy is actually pretty good. I'm curious to hear about what Supersprint manifolds you think you will be buying, because I have searched including the Superpsrint website for "RHD" exhaust manifolds for the 6 cylinder engines and there are none listed, even the M3 ones are "LHD" only. The only other options I have seen are Chinese knock offs via UK ebay sellers, stacking them high and selling them cheap. The pictures of which do not suggest good quality or design thought having been applied (e.g. equal length, tig welds, etc.) So I'm not convinced there is a solution out there for RHD cars without going fully custom which will be in the 2-3K range for an exhaust system and that for 5-10bhp gain is just not worth it imo.
The M50 was fitted before we bought the car. Badly I might add!!! The plastic t-pieces used to connect various vacuum pipes are not designed to compress and were mangled by the hose circlips as a result, in turn resulting in air leaks galore. I took most of it out, connected the ICV direct to the M50, removed the CCV and installed a new pipe with an aluminium T-piece at one end attached to an Oil breather with the small outlet of the T-piece attached to the original oil drain pipe back into the sump. The other end of the pipe attaches direct to the cam cover outlet. In effect venting crank case oil vapours into atmosphere for now, but with the provision for oil to drain back into the engine once it cool down and returns to liquid form.
After this, I contacted Alpina (member on one of the BMW forums) who supplied me with his 68mm BBTB and I fitted that whilst at the same time I removed the ASC+T throttle body and used a pre ASC+T intake pipe (pre 1995 I think) between the MAF and BBTB. Apart from some new piping to couple the Simota to the MAF at the required angle, that was the Intake done and dusted.
The car does feel free at the top end, but the torque dies down after 6500krpm so revving it more doesn't feel like is providing much benefit imo. Having looked at some BW Chiptune dyno graphs of cars running similar setups before and after mapping, my theory appears to be confirmed as the torque curve dies down after 6-6500krpm even though the hp curve goes on up to 7Krpm on the same graphs, so in my opinion shifting much beyond 6.5K is less efficient even though the engine is happy to rev beyond that.
I don't know the weight of the car as it stands. Too much work yet to be done before I will be interested to know where we are as an end result.
BTW, if you go shopping in MK BMW, you are not too far away from us. We are based in Luton, so a visit either way in the new year when we tax the car again could be on the cards if you are up for it. P.S. enjoyed watching your missus doing her thing on track @ Bedford, her hand placement and use of the wheel reminds me of being in a car with an "L" plate though 
Regards, Humour
that seems like a massive amount to me. The car will be fully polly bushed. The front end is already done with exception to the ARB bushes. The rear end is planned to be completely disassembled and rebuilt along with the differential at which time the rear end will also be polly bushed throughout. The only indecision at the moment is whether to go solid bushes (aluminium) for the Differential or the Subframe, there are arguments for and against each option, but we are still undecided until parts start getting ordered.
@McSam, its hard to give an informed opinion yet to be honest Sam. The car is mostly as it was bought. Currently it has two different branded tyres on the front axle (Michelin and Pirelli iirc) and HiFly ditch finders on the rear axle. The rears seemed to gain rubber instead of loose it during the shakedown
We have fitted Treehouse racing FCAB eccentric lollipops using a completely different bushing arrangement and are almost solid, but add more caster. We also fitted a Z3 steering rack as one came up for silly money so I couldn't refuse. Along with the M3 Evo engine mounts, and the X-brace, the front end felt quite sharp, pointy, and easy to change direction, but it did feel a tad understeery in the slow hairpins at Bedford. Given that all of the above was done before we had ever taken the car on track, this really is our only baseline, so we don't have anything to compare to yet.
I have to say I don't understand your references to "minutes" of alignment instead of degrees, but maybe its my lack of knowledge about terminologies lol.
Interesting about your view on the OEM manifolds. I have read through many threads suggesting that the gain from manifolds is minimal (5-9bhp range) and that the standard exhaust apart from being heavy is actually pretty good. I'm curious to hear about what Supersprint manifolds you think you will be buying, because I have searched including the Superpsrint website for "RHD" exhaust manifolds for the 6 cylinder engines and there are none listed, even the M3 ones are "LHD" only. The only other options I have seen are Chinese knock offs via UK ebay sellers, stacking them high and selling them cheap. The pictures of which do not suggest good quality or design thought having been applied (e.g. equal length, tig welds, etc.) So I'm not convinced there is a solution out there for RHD cars without going fully custom which will be in the 2-3K range for an exhaust system and that for 5-10bhp gain is just not worth it imo.
The M50 was fitted before we bought the car. Badly I might add!!! The plastic t-pieces used to connect various vacuum pipes are not designed to compress and were mangled by the hose circlips as a result, in turn resulting in air leaks galore. I took most of it out, connected the ICV direct to the M50, removed the CCV and installed a new pipe with an aluminium T-piece at one end attached to an Oil breather with the small outlet of the T-piece attached to the original oil drain pipe back into the sump. The other end of the pipe attaches direct to the cam cover outlet. In effect venting crank case oil vapours into atmosphere for now, but with the provision for oil to drain back into the engine once it cool down and returns to liquid form.
After this, I contacted Alpina (member on one of the BMW forums) who supplied me with his 68mm BBTB and I fitted that whilst at the same time I removed the ASC+T throttle body and used a pre ASC+T intake pipe (pre 1995 I think) between the MAF and BBTB. Apart from some new piping to couple the Simota to the MAF at the required angle, that was the Intake done and dusted.
The car does feel free at the top end, but the torque dies down after 6500krpm so revving it more doesn't feel like is providing much benefit imo. Having looked at some BW Chiptune dyno graphs of cars running similar setups before and after mapping, my theory appears to be confirmed as the torque curve dies down after 6-6500krpm even though the hp curve goes on up to 7Krpm on the same graphs, so in my opinion shifting much beyond 6.5K is less efficient even though the engine is happy to rev beyond that.
I don't know the weight of the car as it stands. Too much work yet to be done before I will be interested to know where we are as an end result.
BTW, if you go shopping in MK BMW, you are not too far away from us. We are based in Luton, so a visit either way in the new year when we tax the car again could be on the cards if you are up for it.
P.S. enjoyed watching your missus doing her thing on track @ Bedford, her hand placement and use of the wheel reminds me of being in a car with an "L" plate though Regards, Humour
Edited by Humour on Wednesday 24th December 16:48
e21Mark said:
You could consider using Jenvey manifolds and M3 ITB's, running the OE ECU in Alpha N mode?
The 6 branch manifold I have was a fluke find on Gumtree. Delivered to my kitchen window for the princely sum of £40! It was brand new and the guy had simply changed his mind about fitting it to his 328. Unfortunately I have no idea what make it is or whether it was for RHD or LHD? When it was tried on my e21 though, only one or two pipes needed alterations. The guys who did the Tig welding were impressed with the quality of materials too. The exhaust is simply a twin pipe 323 style system made from 50mm stainless, with free flow silencers.
WOW! You lucky sod......I'm not jealous, honest The 6 branch manifold I have was a fluke find on Gumtree. Delivered to my kitchen window for the princely sum of £40! It was brand new and the guy had simply changed his mind about fitting it to his 328. Unfortunately I have no idea what make it is or whether it was for RHD or LHD? When it was tried on my e21 though, only one or two pipes needed alterations. The guys who did the Tig welding were impressed with the quality of materials too. The exhaust is simply a twin pipe 323 style system made from 50mm stainless, with free flow silencers.
Shame you don't know the source of the manifold. Perhaps the original seller can shed some light if you have his contact details?
I have no idea what ECU or Map is in our car. Only that the previous owner said that the car was mapped with EWS delete applied and from his feedback it sounded like the previous owner to him carried this out and probably most of the basic strip and prep of the interior.
Hum
Ah, fair enough about the geo. I'll be playing around with mine and reporting back as I do more days with it, but at the moment it's usually gained more parts each time I take it out, so I wouldn't necessarily be able to judge the difference properly! There are sixty minutes in a degree, sorry for the confusion, makes it a bit easier to reference small angles. A lot of geo machines will show this, eg. mine would display as 0° 15"
If anyone knows how to get from the US way of expressing toe in millimetres (or even inches..) to an angle like we use over here, I'd be very grateful!
The exhaust manifolds: the main thing in favour of changing them is a good improvement throughout the rev range. Most of the experience I've read has been on road cars, and while the M50 inlet only pays dividends past 4000rpm, people seemed to report much-improved response lower down with the exhaust sorted. Admittedly, this is far less important for a track car, but if you could get the parts for a couple of hundred quid it seems worth it. They sound mega, too!
I definitely wasn't thinking to get actual Supersprints, as you say I'm not even sure they exist for RHD applications. My plan was to go for one of those wonderful Chinese knockoffs. The fit is generally described as "amazingly bad", so burgling a set that have already been successfully fitted to a car seems like an idea, but I haven't given it a huge amount of thought yet as it's still quite far down the list for my car.
Interesting what you say about the high-end response. At least you know for sure it does have the M50 manifold! Torque will drop off at that sort of engine speed, that's normal and peak torque is fairly low in these engines anyway - but power is torque times speed, so as long as the torque isn't dropping faster than the speed rises, you're getting more power and it's worth revving it out! It can be hard to tell, especially if you have a standard 2.93 diff in there, even in second you're still doing over 70mph by the top so it's gonna be tailing off with aero drag anyway.
Ah, unfortunately I was only down in MK on a year's placement and have now moved back up to native Leicestershire! I'll be bringing this car to Bedford plenty of times in the future, though, so I'll give you a shout next time
Haha, cheers - I was very impressed with her for a complete beginner, and by the end she'd got about 50sec out of her first run's fastest lap. But in the interests of giving her less to deal with at once, I left the standard wheel-shuffling alone! Many more outings to work on that. It's quite an experience having the car right to the limiter in third with your OH driving
If anyone knows how to get from the US way of expressing toe in millimetres (or even inches..) to an angle like we use over here, I'd be very grateful!
The exhaust manifolds: the main thing in favour of changing them is a good improvement throughout the rev range. Most of the experience I've read has been on road cars, and while the M50 inlet only pays dividends past 4000rpm, people seemed to report much-improved response lower down with the exhaust sorted. Admittedly, this is far less important for a track car, but if you could get the parts for a couple of hundred quid it seems worth it. They sound mega, too!
I definitely wasn't thinking to get actual Supersprints, as you say I'm not even sure they exist for RHD applications. My plan was to go for one of those wonderful Chinese knockoffs. The fit is generally described as "amazingly bad", so burgling a set that have already been successfully fitted to a car seems like an idea, but I haven't given it a huge amount of thought yet as it's still quite far down the list for my car.
Interesting what you say about the high-end response. At least you know for sure it does have the M50 manifold! Torque will drop off at that sort of engine speed, that's normal and peak torque is fairly low in these engines anyway - but power is torque times speed, so as long as the torque isn't dropping faster than the speed rises, you're getting more power and it's worth revving it out! It can be hard to tell, especially if you have a standard 2.93 diff in there, even in second you're still doing over 70mph by the top so it's gonna be tailing off with aero drag anyway.
Ah, unfortunately I was only down in MK on a year's placement and have now moved back up to native Leicestershire! I'll be bringing this car to Bedford plenty of times in the future, though, so I'll give you a shout next time
Haha, cheers - I was very impressed with her for a complete beginner, and by the end she'd got about 50sec out of her first run's fastest lap. But in the interests of giving her less to deal with at once, I left the standard wheel-shuffling alone! Many more outings to work on that. It's quite an experience having the car right to the limiter in third with your OH driving
Humour said:
e21Mark said:
You could consider using Jenvey manifolds and M3 ITB's, running the OE ECU in Alpha N mode?
The 6 branch manifold I have was a fluke find on Gumtree. Delivered to my kitchen window for the princely sum of £40! It was brand new and the guy had simply changed his mind about fitting it to his 328. Unfortunately I have no idea what make it is or whether it was for RHD or LHD? When it was tried on my e21 though, only one or two pipes needed alterations. The guys who did the Tig welding were impressed with the quality of materials too. The exhaust is simply a twin pipe 323 style system made from 50mm stainless, with free flow silencers.
WOW! You lucky sod......I'm not jealous, honest The 6 branch manifold I have was a fluke find on Gumtree. Delivered to my kitchen window for the princely sum of £40! It was brand new and the guy had simply changed his mind about fitting it to his 328. Unfortunately I have no idea what make it is or whether it was for RHD or LHD? When it was tried on my e21 though, only one or two pipes needed alterations. The guys who did the Tig welding were impressed with the quality of materials too. The exhaust is simply a twin pipe 323 style system made from 50mm stainless, with free flow silencers.
Shame you don't know the source of the manifold. Perhaps the original seller can shed some light if you have his contact details?
I have no idea what ECU or Map is in our car. Only that the previous owner said that the car was mapped with EWS delete applied and from his feedback it sounded like the previous owner to him carried this out and probably most of the basic strip and prep of the interior.
Hum
Full M3 syatem picked up bit by bit, the nanifolds being £50 delivered from the bay, the ohther parts were picked up piecemeal, shortly to be given the decat treatment.
andyiley said:
No, just adjustable top mounts & Spax coilovers dropped by around 40mm, she corners real well, my favourite haunts being Cadwell & Blyton as they are closest.
Ok. Interesting that you are able to run so much camber with only those parts. Out of interest, with your current setup have you checked what the roll-centre of your car currently sits at? I've read that with the McPherson being lowered roll centre is negatively affected and stiffer springs and more camber is being used to counter instead of addressing the geometry as far as roll centre is concerned back to OEM.I take your comments onboard and will experiment when we have a proper suspension with camber adjustability. Our basic geo showed a noticeable difference in front camber left to right, but of course we couldn't do anything about that with our current setup so we just had to go with it as is.
Humour said:
Ok. Interesting that you are able to run so much camber with only those parts. Out of interest, with your current setup have you checked what the roll-centre of your car currently sits at? I've read that with the McPherson being lowered roll centre is negatively affected and stiffer springs and more camber is being used to counter instead of addressing the geometry as far as roll centre is concerned back to OEM.
.
I wouldn't know how to check it specifically, but when I fitted the current set up I set the suspension up as above with a clinometer on level ground with correct tyre pressures, and then at my next track day I checked the tyre temperatures across the full width with a pyrometer to make sure there was no differential in temperature indicating incorrect camber..
The tyre wear is also completely even indicating it is set up correctly, so I seem to have ended up with a reasonable set up.
In fairness, I say 5, it is probably actually slightly less as since my initial set up, I did increase the ride height slightly & get the tracking reset to zero.
You see plenty of e36s on track days and the 2.8 is a popular option, I went through two 2.8 engines in my compact before going for a well looked after M3evo engine and I am very pleased with it.
The M50 manifold I thought was unimpressive until I had the ECU remapped by End Tuning. It changed the power curve completely and transformed the car.
What tyres are you running? I love the R888s on mine and they have lasted quite well. I have found brakes to be an issue, they have tended to fade after about 20mins on track.
Over the last winter I stripped it and had it caged which again has transformed it completely. To me it's a monster now and purely a track car.
I love the fact people look at it and snigger a bit and then watch me disappear off. We were at Santa Pod this year and two lads in a Mini Cooper were laughing and pointing as we lined up and the passenger was filming me, I didn't see them after the lights changed until one came and found me later on when we were lining up to ask if was standard.
The M50 manifold I thought was unimpressive until I had the ECU remapped by End Tuning. It changed the power curve completely and transformed the car.
What tyres are you running? I love the R888s on mine and they have lasted quite well. I have found brakes to be an issue, they have tended to fade after about 20mins on track.
Over the last winter I stripped it and had it caged which again has transformed it completely. To me it's a monster now and purely a track car.
I love the fact people look at it and snigger a bit and then watch me disappear off. We were at Santa Pod this year and two lads in a Mini Cooper were laughing and pointing as we lined up and the passenger was filming me, I didn't see them after the lights changed until one came and found me later on when we were lining up to ask if was standard.
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