BMW E36 328 Track Car - Advice?
Discussion
McSam said:
That S2000 thread is another interesting approach, but he's made the mistake of routing the air directly onto the disc face, which is a no-no. To avoid thermal shock you want it routed into the centre of the disc, so that the air is forced out through the vanes and cools the whole disc evenly. This has the advantage of cooling the caliper as well. It's academic for us, because with the handbrake mounted to the rear backing plates we can't do this anyway, but it just stood out!
The E36 has screw mounts for rear tyre deflectors in pretty much the right place, so maybe we could use those to do something similar. I guess the best place to run the ducting to would be directly to the caliper, it would end up quite long but that's not such an issue at the rear, not like the wheel is going to move very far to interfere with it. Definitely some food for thought next time I'm looking at the rear.
Yup, I'm aware that the S2K setup isn't ideal. I was thinking the same when I read through the thread.The E36 has screw mounts for rear tyre deflectors in pretty much the right place, so maybe we could use those to do something similar. I guess the best place to run the ducting to would be directly to the caliper, it would end up quite long but that's not such an issue at the rear, not like the wheel is going to move very far to interfere with it. Definitely some food for thought next time I'm looking at the rear.
It's a shame I didn't spend enough time examining the rear end when the new disks and pads went in (too many jobs to do in one day), I actually do not know where the intake of the rear disk cooling vanes actually are, are they on the front face or the rear face of the disk? If on the rear, then something can be integrated into the rear dust shield and made to push air into the vane intake, by a friendly metal fabricator. I'm left with the feeling though that on the rear disk the intake is on the front face, which if it is, will make providing air to the correct place a PITA, if doable at all. Personally I don't see an advantage in cooling the caliper, as the friction turned into heat is absorbed by the disk, in turn transferred to, the caliper, hub, etc. Hence cooling the disk will be most beneficial.
I hate doing jobs twice, but I fear I will have to take the rear assembly apart again to examine it properly and formulate a plan.
Humour
I've seen the Spa footage ages ago. I had not seen the Snetterton vid before however. Thanks for sharing. I have seen footage of Whoosher's Golf but that was Turbo charged and on that video it looked like the car was in an NA state still.
I have a couple of questions is you don't mind Iguana. The 328 looked like it was leaning a fair bit in turns, what suspension are you/were you running on the car when that vid was taken?
I think the Spa video is great, but not really a fair comparison if the GT2 was running sport tyres and you slicks
I'm curious however, what size were the slicks and what width wheels were they fitted to? Presumably 17" diameter and presumably square setup?
Humour
I have a couple of questions is you don't mind Iguana. The 328 looked like it was leaning a fair bit in turns, what suspension are you/were you running on the car when that vid was taken?
I think the Spa video is great, but not really a fair comparison if the GT2 was running sport tyres and you slicks
I'm curious however, what size were the slicks and what width wheels were they fitted to? Presumably 17" diameter and presumably square setup?Humour
iguana said:
Snett? Ha no that's Thruxton, yes whoosher golf was still NA then, heck it takes a gt3 to keep up now its turbo! Even my M3 is leagues away, let alone that tatty 328.
Oops....FAIL hehe. I mean't Thruxton I remember watching the 155's in 94/95 BTTC running on two wheels round there, but I am terrible with remembering the names of all the tracks and corners 
An update on our recent doings. 
Clutch overhaul complete, phew that was a bit of a job
Rear exhaust manifold snapped two studs. Took hours and various drill bits life's to drill them out. Found the rear exhaust hangers require spend before next MOT.
New lightened flywheel and E36 M3 pressure plate were race balanced for a reasonable price, but the supplied bolts with the flywheel were too short due to 5mm recess in the crank for the threads. Had to scamper late in the day to find longer bolts, found some, but failed on the tensile strength. Plan B, cut the OEM 328 used bolts with a grinder just to gain an extra 5mm lol. Not ideal, but with thread lock in place I hope we don't pay a price later on.
The pilot bearing was amusing to push out with wet paper and a hammer, but it worked, result. The one assembly that didn't cause issues was the home made short shifter, definitely against the norm. lol
Back on subject of pads though, we investigated the pads after our last track day in March. Conversely to Andy's findings we found that our brand new front NDX pads had lost about 50% of their pad material, with one outer pad showing a small chip on the top edge of the pad, despite the cooling upgrade. The rears however whilst having lost some material are nowhere near as worn, perhaps 20-25%, if that. I wonder if its the pad material, or if we were wearing them that hard. At this rate that's a set of fronts in two track days at Bedford GT.
We did manage close to 300 miles on track mostly at speed with small breaks between sessions, so perhaps that's a fair consumption of pad?
Hum
Clutch overhaul complete, phew that was a bit of a job
Rear exhaust manifold snapped two studs. Took hours and various drill bits life's to drill them out. Found the rear exhaust hangers require spend before next MOT.New lightened flywheel and E36 M3 pressure plate were race balanced for a reasonable price, but the supplied bolts with the flywheel were too short due to 5mm recess in the crank for the threads. Had to scamper late in the day to find longer bolts, found some, but failed on the tensile strength. Plan B, cut the OEM 328 used bolts with a grinder just to gain an extra 5mm lol. Not ideal, but with thread lock in place I hope we don't pay a price later on.
The pilot bearing was amusing to push out with wet paper and a hammer, but it worked, result. The one assembly that didn't cause issues was the home made short shifter, definitely against the norm. lol
Back on subject of pads though, we investigated the pads after our last track day in March. Conversely to Andy's findings we found that our brand new front NDX pads had lost about 50% of their pad material, with one outer pad showing a small chip on the top edge of the pad, despite the cooling upgrade. The rears however whilst having lost some material are nowhere near as worn, perhaps 20-25%, if that. I wonder if its the pad material, or if we were wearing them that hard. At this rate that's a set of fronts in two track days at Bedford GT.
We did manage close to 300 miles on track mostly at speed with small breaks between sessions, so perhaps that's a fair consumption of pad?Hum
brian394 said:
Looking good Hum. Had a chance to get the rear end changed yet?
Hello mate,no not yet. The subframe has had the ARB ends reinforced. Seats for Solid subframe bushes have been made, but need final bit of grinding and sanding, then the whole thing needs sand blasting and painting. We have sourced a spare Open diff to build our internals into, but apart from the spare diff casing being blasted, we haven't started on that yet. All other parts are still as supplied awaiting sending everything for sand blasting. Interestingly, the two upper (spring pan) arms you provided me with are slightly different lengths, by an estimated 1 inch. Rather confusing how that is possible, given that all E36 variants are listing the same Left hand and Right Hand part numbers, from the 316i up to the M3 :/ Are you sure these came direct from your car?
McSam, very strange indeed about the wear characteristics of the pads on similar cars. In our case, we did the 300 odd miles in one track day, as opposed to 2 track days in your case. I would hazard a guess we built up heat in the system for quite a bit longer doing that mileage in one day. I do suspect however that the EBC pads are just too soft a material. We measured the disk wear with a caliper and were looking at 0.2mm and 0.25mm on the front.
Interestingly with a single mass flywheel that isn't an OEM type, we lost the ability to lock the bottom end with the clutch pin as the new flywheel simply does not have the notch in place that the dual mass has. This could present a problem when working on top or bottom end internals in the future. :/
Hum
The seats are nothing special. When I burned the old bushes off I noticed that there is a ledge to help locate the ends of the bush (the top cap for a lack of a better expression). Well these only go half way round, so in my wisdom I asked my friends that did the welding for me to build up the other half of the ledge. Not strictly necessary, it just looked like it would help locate the bush better, but in fact it makes little difference. I'll take a picture and show you once I get back to playing with the cradle.
I agree it's odd on the upper arms about the difference in length, as the cradle mounting points are not offset, so it's a bit of a mystery. Apart from buying two additional arms to compare I don't know whether its ok to rebuild with those as they are. I will do some measurements again when I get the arms back after the bushes have been pulled out for me and decide where to go from there. Still have so many parts to buy for the rear end, its not funny but we will get there and it will be done right.
BMW quoted over 500 + vat for the M3 chassis reinforcement plates, full differential rebuild kit and the trailing arms bearings. We are now l looking to source components separately, but really do not want to compromise on the bearings quality, as having to do a job like that twice will be a pita. Our open diff has already started to complain, grumble and shunt a little on aggressive gear changes, but it's not even had an oil change since we bought the car and its now done three track days, so cant complain.
How's your car coming, are you ready for the Kumho championship now? I ought to go look at your build thread to check on progress.....
Hum
I agree it's odd on the upper arms about the difference in length, as the cradle mounting points are not offset, so it's a bit of a mystery. Apart from buying two additional arms to compare I don't know whether its ok to rebuild with those as they are. I will do some measurements again when I get the arms back after the bushes have been pulled out for me and decide where to go from there. Still have so many parts to buy for the rear end, its not funny
but we will get there and it will be done right.BMW quoted over 500 + vat for the M3 chassis reinforcement plates, full differential rebuild kit and the trailing arms bearings. We are now l looking to source components separately, but really do not want to compromise on the bearings quality, as having to do a job like that twice will be a pita. Our open diff has already started to complain, grumble and shunt a little on aggressive gear changes, but it's not even had an oil change since we bought the car and its now done three track days, so cant complain.
How's your car coming, are you ready for the Kumho championship now? I ought to go look at your build thread to check on progress.....
Hum
iguana said:
8.54 ring not exactly flying, a sub 8 would take a cracking peddler in a normal mods 328, but are a fair few not far away & done sub 8.10s
Iguana whilst I appreciate that the times you are stating are indicative of fast or mediocre laps around the ring, relative to the car in question, without an unobstructed track, similar prepped cars, doing laps on the same day with the same conditions, track knowledge, etc. there are too many variables at play to be able to judge car/driver performance imo. Almost every video I have seen of the ring, the car in question has lost time due to being slowed down by slower cars during a lap. In best cases only 1-2 seconds and in worst cases 30+ seconds can be lost.The question is, have you ever had a completely unobstructed lap in your experience of driving the ring which was in reasonable weather in your 328, and was that lap timed? If yes, was that your fastest lap ever in that car and if yes, roughly how many laps had you done aounrd the ring prior to that point?
I do agree with Jim about the experience being the primary win doing something like that, especially if everything comes back in one piece
Sam, yeah the open diff is a bit entertaining if nothing else, I just look at it from the point of view....."it'll keep the tyre warm for the next corner" hehe. I find it particularly entertaining when having fun in the car accelerating hard out of a turn and getting a shove of torque up in the 5/6Krpm, telling me the spinning wheel is finally helping drive the car forward, obviously not the fastest way round a lap, but entertaining nonetheless.
Our LSD is waiting patiently to be installed, but until then we will enjoy burning cheap rubber 
When you say our F&R balance being different, can you elaborate please? Do you mean between a Coupe and Saloon, or Stripped vs. Non Stripped?
Humour
Edited by Humour on Tuesday 26th May 17:12
@ TroubledSoul, congrats on the new toy. with regards to whether to recondition or not really depends on the depth of your wallet, timescales or both.
I'm an advocate for maximising time on track and to achieve that, the car has to be tip top. You should ask yourself, is a 15+ years old road car in tip top condition for track use.....the answer to that is probably not. Equally though, if you are just starting out and are unlikely to push the car to it's limits, or do more than 2-3 track days per year, it's quite reasonable to do the must jobs first that take care of safety and reliability. Then move onto re-con and performance as you go on over a longer time line.
Alternatively, take the car to a race prep. company, drop 20 large in their hands and say, I want it done within 30 working days.
I would check the car on a ramp from play in bushes, arms, ball joints, but beyond that I wouldn't worry too much about surface rust on suspension components/subframes.
Hum
I'm an advocate for maximising time on track and to achieve that, the car has to be tip top. You should ask yourself, is a 15+ years old road car in tip top condition for track use.....the answer to that is probably not. Equally though, if you are just starting out and are unlikely to push the car to it's limits, or do more than 2-3 track days per year, it's quite reasonable to do the must jobs first that take care of safety and reliability. Then move onto re-con and performance as you go on over a longer time line.
Alternatively, take the car to a race prep. company, drop 20 large in their hands and say, I want it done within 30 working days.
I would check the car on a ramp from play in bushes, arms, ball joints, but beyond that I wouldn't worry too much about surface rust on suspension components/subframes.
Hum
I don't disagree with you Sam, however I have read reports of other people with 328's running an Open differential setup to good effect. So I guess allot depends on overall setup. Imagine your car was cornering totally flat as a result of your suspension and geo setup allowing that to happen. In this case then it's much less likely for the inside wheel to unload and spin up.
In my experience using an LSD it has always paid most dividend when driving in wet conditions, but this is mostly based on dirving on the road, which is different all together.
Ok on the brake balance. I thought you had something else in mind. Is your car still running full interior, rear seats, etc.?
In my experience using an LSD it has always paid most dividend when driving in wet conditions, but this is mostly based on dirving on the road, which is different all together.
Ok on the brake balance. I thought you had something else in mind. Is your car still running full interior, rear seats, etc.?
McSam said:
Yep, at the moment the only thing missing when on track is the spare wheel. I do want to get a lot of weight out, but the biggest hit is the front seats - so then I need buckets, harnesses, somewhere to mount them, it adds up to a considerable expense in the end! I'll get there eventually 
The reason I asked is because that would explain the difference in pad wear between the cars. In your case you are carrying more weight on the rear axle than we are, so to some degree it makes sense that you are wearing the rear pads more quickly than we are.With respect to the LSD, as I said, I don't disagree with your logic, however there are those who do run an open diff setup 'on track' quite successfully with the E36 chassis, so there are ways to mitigate beyond locking with an LSD. Yes you could argue that with 9J wide wheels and 245 tyres front and rear the levels of grip probably will exceed the 328's power delivery and it's ability to spin up. Equally, you could argue that with smoother throttle application the same behaviour can also be mitigated in the lower gears. Personally, I have found the behaviour in dry conditions is only apparent when being very aggressive with the throttle to the point where I am intentionally provoking the car to slide (e.g. having fun). When trying to maximise lap time I'm usually much smoother and the behaviour is much less apparent in my experience.
iguana said:
Humour said:
Iguana
The question is, have you ever had a completely unobstructed lap in your experience of driving the ring which was in reasonable weather in your 328, and was that lap timed? If yes, was that your fastest lap ever in that car and if yes, roughly how many laps had you done aounrd the ring prior to that point?
I've only done a few laps one morning in my 328 & it was on 15 inch wheels & old 200k miles worn bushes etc so not setting the world alight with times I did an 8.20 in it, my pal can do 8.06 in his. The question is, have you ever had a completely unobstructed lap in your experience of driving the ring which was in reasonable weather in your 328, and was that lap timed? If yes, was that your fastest lap ever in that car and if yes, roughly how many laps had you done aounrd the ring prior to that point?
I'm a long way off real pace anyway, I can do a few sub 8s like 7.57 in my m3 tho it is only 45bhp up on the 328 its a better prepped car, but tbh that is still pretty slow, a good time is 7.30 odd, but I do see more spanked cars there than most & don't have the plums or talent to go really banzai.
I've seen all of Dale's videos on You tube including the one with the "lizard" M3, I did wonder at the time if there is any connection, but didn't want to speculate. Tell Dale to get his differential fixed next time you speak to him
Fair enough on the times, that now gives some perspective to your previous statements.
Whilst there is only 45Bhp difference in the two cars featured, my mate and I were wondering where the time was going to come from on Lap two when you lead the lap from Dale's perspective, given that you had the HP advantage as well as the tyre advantage as it looked like the M3 was on slicks for that session. Dale did good to get the best out of his setup, but it was a very long shot to keep up with the grip differential.
I've seen all of Whoosher's videos too
It definitely looks like you guys know the track well, but 1300 laps? That's allot of expendable income lol.
Shame Dale's car is gone, presumably he migrated to something newer/faster? I'm curious what happened to the R1 suspension and that rear wing he had on the car? I would like to know where he got that Wing from if possible, as we would like to acquire the same part further down the line as our car is developed.
It definitely looks like you guys know the track well, but 1300 laps? That's allot of expendable income lol.
Shame Dale's car is gone, presumably he migrated to something newer/faster? I'm curious what happened to the R1 suspension and that rear wing he had on the car? I would like to know where he got that Wing from if possible, as we would like to acquire the same part further down the line as our car is developed.
iguana said:
Suspension I don't know, but pretty sure a pal of mine still has the wing as he offered it to me, I couldn't stand the look of it so declined, but I can ask for you.
If you could, that would be great. Function over form for us, a bit like Woosher's approach, butt ugly but goes some
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