Plonker at Cadwell
Discussion
jonnyleroux said:
I realise i'm in the minority and it's not a popular suggestion, but I really don't think that track day licences are such a bad idea.
Yes, it costs money and it's a hassle to administrate, but it would give a central database of infringements and would ensure a minimum level of competence.
Jonny
BaT
wouldn't the problem be that it would put a too high barrier to entry? Yes, it costs money and it's a hassle to administrate, but it would give a central database of infringements and would ensure a minimum level of competence.
Jonny
BaT
At face value i like the idea a lot, but the TD business isn't that strong and if you stop people just turning up that's a lot of cash gone.
I seriously believe that TDs aren't enforcing the rules enough anyway as they want the repeat business (i realise this case was probably a noob rather than a regular aggressive driver, but i've witnessed plenty of bad behaviour given a soft talking too because he's a regular). Cheap track days fuel the passion and then people may gravitate towards higher priced/value operators.
Jonny, you're the guy who lives by his fearsome reputation ;-) why don't you start it and try to recruit other TDOs? The market may well segment into different levels of quality, but at least people would have a better idea of who they were signing with.
In my experience the worst driving etiquette on Track Days in generally done by those in racing teams and/or those testing for a race series. Common occurrence to see a Mini Cup/Fun Cup or whatever crash early doors on a track day. These guys obviously have a race license and yet it doesn't appear (in some cases) to improve their appreciation of what an actual Track Day is all about. The license idea is a good one in my opinion - as long as it applies to everyone.
If the cost was reasonable and it was sensibly administered then it could work, but the issue is you're still relying on the TDOs to enforce bad driving and give out the "points" which would presumably result in eventually losing said licence. So basically the TDOs would have to p
s off paying customers, takes some balls to do that.
s off paying customers, takes some balls to do that.Licencing is a bad idea imo, there is enough regulation in this world already. It would bring with it huge prooblems of counter allegations and would require some kind of appeals procedure. That would be a nightmare.
It's a fun day out, keep your eyes out for nobbers and give them room, report them to the TDO and let them sort it. Lets not have a new level of bureaucracy, its bad enough in our World as it is.
It's a fun day out, keep your eyes out for nobbers and give them room, report them to the TDO and let them sort it. Lets not have a new level of bureaucracy, its bad enough in our World as it is.
drakart said:
jonnyleroux said:
I realise i'm in the minority and it's not a popular suggestion, but I really don't think that track day licences are such a bad idea.
Yes, it costs money and it's a hassle to administrate, but it would give a central database of infringements and would ensure a minimum level of competence.
Jonny
BaT
I like that. Yes, it costs money and it's a hassle to administrate, but it would give a central database of infringements and would ensure a minimum level of competence.
Jonny
BaT
But what would be the mechanism for the person coming along for his first track day, interested in seeing if he likes it?
Would there be compulsory instruction and testing, as in a mini-ARDS test?
Would driving history be examined?
Would such drivers be restricted to novice events until they had got their licence or done say 5 events without black flag?
Would there be endorsements for crashing (like the 2CV did on Monday). for spinning more than once per trackday, or for driving like a t
t in the opinion of others?Who would be the judge and jury? What would be the rights of appeal?
I am possibly overdoing it here - maybe we don't need trackday licences? Maybe all it needs is for the ATDO to keep a register of t
ts centrally, so that bookings from tts are refused by ATDO members, who would be obliged to check their entry lists against the tt register before running the track day?Thankfully, these occurrences are a rarity, (unless you are at an Action Day at Combe, where they are the norm)In 7 years of track days, I have seen mistakes, I have seen errors of judgement. But I have only seen one complete and utter danger. He went home on the recovery truck. Lets not legislate ourselves any deeper.
What a horrible accident for the lotus driver and what appalling driving from the mg driver.
Don't know what to suggest really, track days are potentially very dangerous I guess. If the track day organiser had seen the incident or reviewed the video it would look like they're doing their job properly if they did ban the guy from their days but don't know how you protect everyone else from nob ends.
One point is that although the video shows clearly unacceptable drive and an awful result I imagine everyone's expectations of a track day are quite different. I find people bimbling about which is fine and there are also people like me who want to push it to the limit (and occasionally past it).
There room for all these people on a track day if they stay apart. Don't know how you police this reliably. I did a recent day with MSE at abingdon and they're great for looking after everyone. I did spin off after an error of judgement and they black flagged me (quite correctly) and we have a really good chat about what had gone wrong and all was well.
How much can you actually do though given that quite a few people simply don't listen to the briefing. One guy thought he was too special to follow the van's lines on the sighting lap even though he'd been specifically asked to do just that so the lines got followed all the way down the session group. He was weaving left and right, all over the place. I'm not going to say who it was as he's on here. Also several people were overtaking without consent and on both sides on one occasion which is certainly going to end in tears at some point. Difficult to see what the organisers can do if some of the attendees are going to be that dense.
Cheers,
Mark
Don't know what to suggest really, track days are potentially very dangerous I guess. If the track day organiser had seen the incident or reviewed the video it would look like they're doing their job properly if they did ban the guy from their days but don't know how you protect everyone else from nob ends.
One point is that although the video shows clearly unacceptable drive and an awful result I imagine everyone's expectations of a track day are quite different. I find people bimbling about which is fine and there are also people like me who want to push it to the limit (and occasionally past it).
There room for all these people on a track day if they stay apart. Don't know how you police this reliably. I did a recent day with MSE at abingdon and they're great for looking after everyone. I did spin off after an error of judgement and they black flagged me (quite correctly) and we have a really good chat about what had gone wrong and all was well.
How much can you actually do though given that quite a few people simply don't listen to the briefing. One guy thought he was too special to follow the van's lines on the sighting lap even though he'd been specifically asked to do just that so the lines got followed all the way down the session group. He was weaving left and right, all over the place. I'm not going to say who it was as he's on here. Also several people were overtaking without consent and on both sides on one occasion which is certainly going to end in tears at some point. Difficult to see what the organisers can do if some of the attendees are going to be that dense.
Cheers,
Mark
I did a fair bit of work the insurance last year, after the Snetterton court case.
I was told by a major motorsport insurer that the only way it would be feasible at anywhere near reasonable cost would be if the TDOs administered it themselves using bulk policies, charging everyone on every track day for the privilege.
I was told by a major motorsport insurer that the only way it would be feasible at anywhere near reasonable cost would be if the TDOs administered it themselves using bulk policies, charging everyone on every track day for the privilege.
I think if you have anything you don't want to risk you should seek out a club day for your marque run by someone who has a good reputation. Getting everyone to be insured isn't the answer, costs would spiral and it would be the end of it.
I think you have to accept the risks personally. That's lots of ways to damage your car on a track day in addition to someone hitting you. I mitigate the risks by using a kit car which is relatively straight forward to repair and I'm just preparing an rx8 that I know I could rebody for way less than the excess on any insurance policy. I wouldn't take anything expensive on track unless it was with a club of like minded people.
I think you have to accept the risks personally. That's lots of ways to damage your car on a track day in addition to someone hitting you. I mitigate the risks by using a kit car which is relatively straight forward to repair and I'm just preparing an rx8 that I know I could rebody for way less than the excess on any insurance policy. I wouldn't take anything expensive on track unless it was with a club of like minded people.
dern said:
I think if you have anything you don't want to risk you should seek out a club day for your marque run by someone who has a good reputation.
Exactly my point above. I'm getting a McLaren next year and the only place to try out the performance is on a track so I will definitely be doing some . I would absolutely never take the risk on one of those 'free for all' track days however. thebraketester said:
Certainly puts me off wanting to take my car on track. Why dont they just demand that all cars are insured on the track? Yes more expense but then at least you are all covered.
You already can take out insurance if you want to but why should you DEMAND everyone has it though 
Agree with some previous posters, let`s not get carried away here. ONE driver drove beyond his limited abilities and crashed. Unfortunately, instead of just hitting the Armco and going home, he hit another very unlucky trackday driver.
These things are incredibly infrequent and the last thing we want is some sort of knee jerk reaction that would have an impact of the 1,000`s of trackday drivers who have no issues whatsoever.
Wh00sher said:
thebraketester said:
Certainly puts me off wanting to take my car on track. Why dont they just demand that all cars are insured on the track? Yes more expense but then at least you are all covered.
You already can take out insurance if you want to but why should you DEMAND everyone has it though Gassing Station | Track Days | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff