Cadwell Park- Red Flag Day
Discussion
Caldwell Park 1st October. Red Flag Day.
Just home from Javelin's track day at Cadwell Park.
Oh dear.
Great weather after a musty start. An open pit lane format.
All set for a good day out, But:-
Maybe 80 cars in total, mostly modified. Very few standard models.
By the time I gave up at 4pm, there had been 7 or 8 red flags and any number of black flags. A significant part of driving time was lost due to people who could not control their cars.
The safety briefing could not have been clearer but 10% or more of the cars lost control and left the circuit.
These morons overestimate their ability and have no consideration for the rest of us.
A dud day out.
Just home from Javelin's track day at Cadwell Park.
Oh dear.
Great weather after a musty start. An open pit lane format.
All set for a good day out, But:-
Maybe 80 cars in total, mostly modified. Very few standard models.
By the time I gave up at 4pm, there had been 7 or 8 red flags and any number of black flags. A significant part of driving time was lost due to people who could not control their cars.
The safety briefing could not have been clearer but 10% or more of the cars lost control and left the circuit.
These morons overestimate their ability and have no consideration for the rest of us.
A dud day out.
I did one there with the same TDO about a year ago (may have been November) and it was exactly the same. Cars off left right and centre and red flags being waved far too often. Again there was a good number of cars, more than could be out on circuit at once.
Edited by DMN on Friday 2nd October 12:25
Granted, a day spent with red flags is frustrating but with 80 cars out, that is fewer than 10% of cars having an incident. Probably some of those are mechanical rather than a lack of talent so perhaps not exactly fair on the population as a whole.
Quick drivers fall off occasionally too no? or should everyone be pootling round so carefully as to never make a mistake?
Genuine question - I try quite hard on track, I think the only red flag I caused was when the big end went on the Mazda but I have nearly binned it on more than one occasion and have come off a fair few times over the years.
Does that make me a moron or just more committed and hopefully quicker than others?
Bob
I trackday to get better / faster and sometimes I do run out of talent....
Quick drivers fall off occasionally too no? or should everyone be pootling round so carefully as to never make a mistake?
Genuine question - I try quite hard on track, I think the only red flag I caused was when the big end went on the Mazda but I have nearly binned it on more than one occasion and have come off a fair few times over the years.
Does that make me a moron or just more committed and hopefully quicker than others?
Bob
I trackday to get better / faster and sometimes I do run out of talent....
fat80b said:
Granted, a day spent with red flags is frustrating but with 80 cars out, that is fewer than 10% of cars having an incident. Probably some of those are mechanical rather than a lack of talent so perhaps not exactly fair on the population as a whole.
Quick drivers fall off occasionally too no? or should everyone be pootling round so carefully as to never make a mistake?
Genuine question - I try quite hard on track, I think the only red flag I caused was when the big end went on the Mazda but I have nearly binned it on more than one occasion and have come off a fair few times over the years.
Does that make me a moron or just more committed and hopefully quicker than others?
Bob
I trackday to get better / faster and sometimes I do run out of talent....
My worry is that when you run out of talent you either take me with you, or close the track so nobody else can drive for some time.Quick drivers fall off occasionally too no? or should everyone be pootling round so carefully as to never make a mistake?
Genuine question - I try quite hard on track, I think the only red flag I caused was when the big end went on the Mazda but I have nearly binned it on more than one occasion and have come off a fair few times over the years.
Does that make me a moron or just more committed and hopefully quicker than others?
Bob
I trackday to get better / faster and sometimes I do run out of talent....
If you follow your logic to its conclusion, we all keep driving faster and faster until we crash!
Yesterday at least one car was a right off, maybe two. Five of the 'offs' were not gentle kisses of the barrier, but full on losses of control. I do not think one in ten drivers losing control is acceptable.
One guy went nose first into the tyres, having been seriously too fast through the bends. Having patched the car up he went back out and tailgated repeatedly until he was black flagged. These morons do not understand that the track is a shared space.
For clarity, I am not saying that you are one of them, but for me the balance is between excitement and safety. If safety is ignored, it ends badly.
I was also at Cadwell yesterday, after an hours delay due to fog, once it had cleared the weather could not have been better.
I have visited Cadwell on numerous times as its my local track and i've never known so many red and black flags, I only managed three decent stints.
Also as it was an open pit lane format I do not expect to be queueing for a minimum of ten minutes before getting on track, would have had more track time if on twenty minute classes, it was definitely over subscribed.
Is this trackday companies getting greedy or just getting more numbers so they can lower the price and be competitive?
I have visited Cadwell on numerous times as its my local track and i've never known so many red and black flags, I only managed three decent stints.
Also as it was an open pit lane format I do not expect to be queueing for a minimum of ten minutes before getting on track, would have had more track time if on twenty minute classes, it was definitely over subscribed.
Is this trackday companies getting greedy or just getting more numbers so they can lower the price and be competitive?
It does feel as if they are loading more people onto the days the last couple I've done with the mentioned TDO the numbers of cars seem higher per track and some queuing to get on track which I don't recall doing so much in 2014.
For next year may pay a bit more for less cars on track some research to do I think....
For next year may pay a bit more for less cars on track some research to do I think....
I was at Cadwell on Thursday aswell, as its one of my favorite circuits... it was frustrating at times with all the cars that were out and flags etc, but still managed to get plenty of tracktime, i do like it when its fairly busy cos it can get boring if not many cars are out,There was a few that were driving way beyond there means... i just let them get on with it and keep out there way
It's worth pointing out that the circuit sets the track limit and that is the same for every organiser, the TDO decides how many to book on and that can determine how much queueing there is and how busy it feels on track (low numbers means the circuit limit is unlikely to be reached).
The cheapest days have to book higher numbers to cover the costs, these lower prices may also possibly attract the kind of drivers that you wouldn't want to share a track with
There's a day being run at Cadwell next Friday by the BMWCC, all makes welcome. It's restricted to a maximum of 50 cars so you can pretty much guarantee no queueing, free instruction available and high standards of etiquette are expected but it costs £139 and because there are cheaper days out there it's not yet full banghead.
Some cheap days are just great value but sometimes it's worth spending just a little more.
The cheapest days have to book higher numbers to cover the costs, these lower prices may also possibly attract the kind of drivers that you wouldn't want to share a track with
There's a day being run at Cadwell next Friday by the BMWCC, all makes welcome. It's restricted to a maximum of 50 cars so you can pretty much guarantee no queueing, free instruction available and high standards of etiquette are expected but it costs £139 and because there are cheaper days out there it's not yet full banghead.
Some cheap days are just great value but sometimes it's worth spending just a little more.
NailedOn said:
My worry is that when you run out of talent you either take me with you, or close the track so nobody else can drive for some time.
If you follow your logic to its conclusion, we all keep driving faster and faster until we crash!
Yesterday at least one car was a right off, maybe two. Five of the 'offs' were not gentle kisses of the barrier, but full on losses of control. I do not think one in ten drivers losing control is acceptable.
One guy went nose first into the tyres, having been seriously too fast through the bends. Having patched the car up he went back out and tailgated repeatedly until he was black flagged. These morons do not understand that the track is a shared space.
For clarity, I am not saying that you are one of them, but for me the balance is between excitement and safety. If safety is ignored, it ends badly.
Kinda depends what you define as a loss of control.If you follow your logic to its conclusion, we all keep driving faster and faster until we crash!
Yesterday at least one car was a right off, maybe two. Five of the 'offs' were not gentle kisses of the barrier, but full on losses of control. I do not think one in ten drivers losing control is acceptable.
One guy went nose first into the tyres, having been seriously too fast through the bends. Having patched the car up he went back out and tailgated repeatedly until he was black flagged. These morons do not understand that the track is a shared space.
For clarity, I am not saying that you are one of them, but for me the balance is between excitement and safety. If safety is ignored, it ends badly.
I'll put my hand up to having had a few 'losses of control' - normally half spins or minor trips over bits of grass. If I have to go to the track and drive comfortable within the limts of grip and so on, then there's really no point whatsoever in going. Frankly, yes, my intent is to drive faster and faster until I get to the very edge of what I & the car can do. Note - not crash. I have no interest in ending up in tyre walls and the like. You work up to the limits and overstep them a bit - not go rocketing out and brake 50m too late for the first corner. In that manner, you kick up a bit of grass, swap ends, miss the apex.. but generally don't go walloping nose first into the tyres.
Of course the other angle is that you shouldn't really be driving close enough that someone else's accident can take you out - short of completely forgetting to brake the car behind is going to be hard pushed to have an accident that involves the a car in front.
Edited by upsidedownmark on Monday 5th October 11:53
I would have thought that drifting would be the best form of activity if spinning and going sideways is the likely outcome of circuit driving.
It could also be argued that a nonchalant approach to driving such that it impacts (not literally) other participants is somewhat selfish, as is an expectation that all other participants should keep well away from someone who happens to be interested in driving beyond certain limits.
It could also be argued that a nonchalant approach to driving such that it impacts (not literally) other participants is somewhat selfish, as is an expectation that all other participants should keep well away from someone who happens to be interested in driving beyond certain limits.
fat80b said:
Granted, a day spent with red flags is frustrating but with 80 cars out, that is fewer than 10% of cars having an incident. Probably some of those are mechanical rather than a lack of talent so perhaps not exactly fair on the population as a whole.
Quick drivers fall off occasionally too no? or should everyone be pootling round so carefully as to never make a mistake?
Genuine question - I try quite hard on track, I think the only red flag I caused was when the big end went on the Mazda but I have nearly binned it on more than one occasion and have come off a fair few times over the years.
Does that make me a moron or just more committed and hopefully quicker than others?
Bob
I trackday to get better / faster and sometimes I do run out of talent....
Out of interest, how much instruction have you taken in all your trackday driving experience? Quick drivers fall off occasionally too no? or should everyone be pootling round so carefully as to never make a mistake?
Genuine question - I try quite hard on track, I think the only red flag I caused was when the big end went on the Mazda but I have nearly binned it on more than one occasion and have come off a fair few times over the years.
Does that make me a moron or just more committed and hopefully quicker than others?
Bob
I trackday to get better / faster and sometimes I do run out of talent....
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