Track days - are we in a golden era?
Discussion
A point of discussion really. At present, you can book onto the many and varied track days at a wide variety of race tracks, all for a relatively small amount of money. Once there, without any special tuition apart from a briefing and only a sighting lap to asses your initial competence, you are allowed free reign to drive as fast as you like, against like minded individuals, most of whom are not insured and some of which are driving cars that would not get close to passing an MOT but are passed fit as they pass a noise test.
Cannot go on, can it? Are we a major court case away from all this coming crashing down?
Cannot go on, can it? Are we a major court case away from all this coming crashing down?
The "not insured" point is irrelevant as nobody's track day insurance covers third party losses, insurance is to cover your own car at your own discretion - it makes zero difference whether the guy beside you has any.
I don't agree with the "not close to passing an MOT" comment either. I see few cars that aren't driven to the circuit, and most of the ones that are trailered are full race cars. Those wouldn't pass an MOT - does that make them more dangerous on a circuit? I've yet to see any unsound car on a track day.
Except in a handful of cases, organisers are pretty good at stopping foolish driving before it develops into an incident, and then it's usually a single car falling off. Car to car collisions are very rare and at the end of the day, we all know what risks we're taking by going out there in the first place. We use our experience to judge the cars around us and leave them space accordingly, and if someone's looking sketchy you tell the TDO and they'll get pulled in for a b
king. But over 95% of the drivers I come across are safe and respectful, so I really don't see why this shouldn't continue.
I don't agree with the "not close to passing an MOT" comment either. I see few cars that aren't driven to the circuit, and most of the ones that are trailered are full race cars. Those wouldn't pass an MOT - does that make them more dangerous on a circuit? I've yet to see any unsound car on a track day.
Except in a handful of cases, organisers are pretty good at stopping foolish driving before it develops into an incident, and then it's usually a single car falling off. Car to car collisions are very rare and at the end of the day, we all know what risks we're taking by going out there in the first place. We use our experience to judge the cars around us and leave them space accordingly, and if someone's looking sketchy you tell the TDO and they'll get pulled in for a b
king. But over 95% of the drivers I come across are safe and respectful, so I really don't see why this shouldn't continue.Robert Elise said:
very few personal injuries, so authorities aren't concerned.
it's voluntary and you sign a contract, so damages aren't really a problem either. there was one case couple years ago which prompted TDOs to tighten their T&Cs.
the Ring still survives, and that IS carnage, daily.
^ This. Which is more like what the OP describes. Except you have to be road legal and insured. Doesn't really help there does it.it's voluntary and you sign a contract, so damages aren't really a problem either. there was one case couple years ago which prompted TDOs to tighten their T&Cs.
the Ring still survives, and that IS carnage, daily.
The reality of UK track days (which tend to be a lot more controlled that Euro ones) is that it's well self policed and in the 15 or so years I've been doing them, that has become slicker and fairly universally accepted as the status quo.
You do get the occasional muppet running out of talent like that tool who took out an Elise at Cadwell. But on the whole, car to car contact is very rare. It's mostly own car to barrier/wall/roof. All of which is usually your own fault and you just take that on the chin. That said, it happens, but I'm not sure you should ruin the way they're run for the sake of a few knobbers who's ego is way greater than their ability.
The problems come with the super cheap days here where people turn up with a disposable shed and drive like a
on a packed circuit. Also in mainland Europe where you occasionally get locals who think the rules don't apply to them because they've got circuit knowledge so everyone should just get out of their fking way.juansolo said:
Robert Elise said:
very few personal injuries, so authorities aren't concerned.
it's voluntary and you sign a contract, so damages aren't really a problem either. there was one case couple years ago which prompted TDOs to tighten their T&Cs.
the Ring still survives, and that IS carnage, daily.
^ This. Which is more like what the OP describes. Except you have to be road legal and insured. Doesn't really help there does it.it's voluntary and you sign a contract, so damages aren't really a problem either. there was one case couple years ago which prompted TDOs to tighten their T&Cs.
the Ring still survives, and that IS carnage, daily.
The reality of UK track days (which tend to be a lot more controlled that Euro ones) is that it's well self policed and in the 15 or so years I've been doing them, that has become slicker and fairly universally accepted as the status quo.
You do get the occasional muppet running out of talent like that tool who took out an Elise at Cadwell. But on the whole, car to car contact is very rare. It's mostly own car to barrier/wall/roof. All of which is usually your own fault and you just take that on the chin. That said, it happens, but I'm not sure you should ruin the way they're run for the sake of a few knobbers who's ego is way greater than their ability.
The problems come with the super cheap days here where people turn up with a disposable shed and drive like a
on a packed circuit. Also in mainland Europe where you occasionally get locals who think the rules don't apply to them because they've got circuit knowledge so everyone should just get out of their fking way.Most days though are pretty well behaved too.
Itsallicanafford said:
A point of discussion really. At present, you can book onto the many and varied track days at a wide variety of race tracks, all for a relatively small amount of money. Once there, without any special tuition apart from a briefing and only a sighting lap to asses your initial competence, you are allowed free reign to drive as fast as you like, against like minded individuals, most of whom are not insured and some of which are driving cars that would not get close to passing an MOT but are passed fit as they pass a noise test.
Cannot go on, can it? Are we a major court case away from all this coming crashing down?
With, not against. It's not racing. Cannot go on, can it? Are we a major court case away from all this coming crashing down?
Insurance is an interesting one. You can drive on track without any insurance. Although the majority of crashes involve just yourself and our own car, car to car contact does occur. What would be the outcome of the killed banker scenario which is often trotted out when discussing the ring and TF days. If it was proven to be your fault, insured or not, what would be the outcome if negligence was established on your part? And could that negligence be as simple as driving an unroadworthy (I.e no MOT) car.
Again, just a discussion point.
Again, just a discussion point.
McSam said:
The "not insured" point is irrelevant as nobody's track day insurance covers third party losses
The last time i phoned my insurer to check what was actually covered they said i was fully covered for all scenarios as per my road cover. The td extension was just that, an extension of my road cover for tracks. Itsallicanafford said:
Insurance is an interesting one. You can drive on track without any insurance. Although the majority of crashes involve just yourself and our own car, car to car contact does occur. What would be the outcome of the killed banker scenario which is often trotted out when discussing the ring and TF days. If it was proven to be your fault, insured or not, what would be the outcome if negligence was established on your part? And could that negligence be as simple as driving an unroadworthy (I.e no MOT) car.
Again, just a discussion point.
I believe in the UK a British Judge would say the banker knew the risks and that negligence on a track day would be near impossible to prove.Again, just a discussion point.
Rick101 said:
The last time i phoned my insurer to check what was actually covered they said i was fully covered for all scenarios as per my road cover. The td extension was just that, an extension of my road cover for tracks.
I would give them another call and get that clarified as not one UK insurer offers the cover you describe.Aye think I will.
Have asked a few times but it's sometimes difficult to get a proper answer on the phone with these things. Keen to offer them and make a sale but not so keen to actually take the time to discuss the product properly.
Not that it makes a difference for my costs but may help a third party out.
Will check and report back.
Have asked a few times but it's sometimes difficult to get a proper answer on the phone with these things. Keen to offer them and make a sale but not so keen to actually take the time to discuss the product properly.
Not that it makes a difference for my costs but may help a third party out.
Will check and report back.
5517 said:
I believe in the UK a British Judge would say the banker knew the risks and that negligence on a track day would be near impossible to prove.
I have no connection to the legal profession but to play devils advocate, let's take the MG taking out that Elise at Cadwell. It's not hard to show a hundred videos of people taking the corner correctly. The MG looks pretty negligent in comparison. Replace the Elise with a Caterham who is slightly further into the corner, you have a 40mph impact, side on, on the drivers side. Let's put our banker in the Caterham, I think driver, TDO and track would all have their day in court. Could be wrong, you tell me?Itsallicanafford said:
I have no connection to the legal profession but to play devils advocate, let's take the MG taking out that Elise at Cadwell. It's not hard to show a hundred videos of people taking the corner correctly. The MG looks pretty negligent in comparison. Replace the Elise with a Caterham who is slightly further into the corner, you have a 40mph impact, side on, on the drivers side. Let's put our banker in the Caterham, I think driver, TDO and track would all have their day in court. Could be wrong, you tell me?
Did this ever get anywhere?http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greate...
This is a fascinating topic and I for one certainly wouldnt object to cars without MOT's or an equivalent mechanical certification being forbidden. I run an old 306 but it is maintained regardless of cost but even then I have no dount the GT3's of this world are probably wary of me.
Insurance has always scared me, i dont bother with it for the TD as my car isnt worth insuring when comparing car value vs. cost of insurance per annum, however the car to car contact is something always in the back of my mind and I am always careful when other cars are concerned.
This is part of why I like Bedford, its not the most technical but it is very long, very open and very easy to spot other cars, and frankly get out of the way/plan a route past.
Insurance has always scared me, i dont bother with it for the TD as my car isnt worth insuring when comparing car value vs. cost of insurance per annum, however the car to car contact is something always in the back of my mind and I am always careful when other cars are concerned.
This is part of why I like Bedford, its not the most technical but it is very long, very open and very easy to spot other cars, and frankly get out of the way/plan a route past.
People are saying car to car contact on trackdays is rare but I don't think it's rare enough. I've not been doing trackdays that long (~2 years) but I'm not sure this is a golden era.
I'm aware of three incidents of car to car contact this year:
I think it's only a matter of time before there is a more serious incident.
I'm aware of three incidents of car to car contact this year:
- "Plonker at Cadwell" MG & Lotus (MG driver at fault)
- Rockingham in June - Ginetta junior race car and Octavia. Ginetta junior driver at fault and caused ~£4000 of damage to the Octavia which was (luckily!) insured. Ginetta driver was not allowed to continue though the incident happened near the end of the day so no big hardship to them.
- Coombe in July - MX-5 race car and Clio. MX-5 driver at fault and caused £500+ of damage to the Clio (repaired using second hand bumper + some other bits). Think it was also a junior driver but can't be sure.
I think it's only a matter of time before there is a more serious incident.
If your car is loud then we have already passed beyond the golden age I would say... 
If it is valuable enough to need insuring on track (particularly on the continent for a sensible sum) - likewise. (Options remain, but aren't as numerous nor reasonably priced as the situation a few years back).
If it is valuable enough to need insuring on track (particularly on the continent for a sensible sum) - likewise. (Options remain, but aren't as numerous nor reasonably priced as the situation a few years back).
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