High speed cornering - approaching the limit?
Discussion
The biggest challenge I face on track is high speed bends. I am just not sure where the limit is or what will happen when I get there. Will I lose the back, just understeer or what? Its worrying as whatever happens it'll be at high speed and will I be able to cope with it or simply go flying off? How do you cope with this?
I actually find high speed corners easier than low speed because there is less steering input, so my tendency to steer too much is reduced.
The way I learn is just by braking a tiny bit later each lap until on one lap I miss the apex, then I know I've turned in too fast. Every car I've driven will understeer first.
The way I learn is just by braking a tiny bit later each lap until on one lap I miss the apex, then I know I've turned in too fast. Every car I've driven will understeer first.
FWIW I sympathise with the OP.
Of course there's high speed and really high speed; Blanchimont at Spa being the latter and a corner I never really got to grips with.
Goodwood also has a nice mix of fast bends - I used to find sprinting a modded TVTR Griffith 500 round there, that even the little kink on the Lavant straight was interesting because at that speed, flat in fifth at 125mph, the understeer in (my) car seemed to cause the rear wheels to unweight a little and spin up.
A lot depends on car set up. Most road cars used on track days will, by dint of their predominantly being road vehicles, have various compromises. You kind of need to understand these, in order to cope with them. The other thing is experience, so perhaps a track day somewhere that's both fast and has ample run off is another proposition?
Of course there's high speed and really high speed; Blanchimont at Spa being the latter and a corner I never really got to grips with.
Goodwood also has a nice mix of fast bends - I used to find sprinting a modded TVTR Griffith 500 round there, that even the little kink on the Lavant straight was interesting because at that speed, flat in fifth at 125mph, the understeer in (my) car seemed to cause the rear wheels to unweight a little and spin up.
A lot depends on car set up. Most road cars used on track days will, by dint of their predominantly being road vehicles, have various compromises. You kind of need to understand these, in order to cope with them. The other thing is experience, so perhaps a track day somewhere that's both fast and has ample run off is another proposition?
You've got to work your way up to it. Keeping everything smooth and not doing anything stupid like braking mid corner will allow you to slowly increase speeds.
You've got to remember that there are several phases of a corner and the car will behave differently depending on if your on the brakes/throttle or steady state.
The ring is mostly very high speed and I started off with a little dab of the brakes before the corner where necessary, then onto a confidence lift then finally flat.
You've got to remember that there are several phases of a corner and the car will behave differently depending on if your on the brakes/throttle or steady state.
The ring is mostly very high speed and I started off with a little dab of the brakes before the corner where necessary, then onto a confidence lift then finally flat.
2 thoughts on this one:
Firstly, when it comes to braking, forget braking as you do on the road - i.e. with varying severity. ALWAYS brake as hard as you can. That removes one variable. Then start with a (conservative) braking point, and move it progressively closer to the corner a bit at a time. If you don't do this, it is near impossible to get a consistent entry.
Doing this you will work up to the limit gradually and can start to play. Note that the limit is a big grey zone, not a cliff you suddenly fall off.
Secondly - when you've 'provoked' the car before, be it in a car park, or in slower turns you've probably done it by relatively agressive use of throttle, brake or steering, most likely exceeding grip at one end suddenly and by a lot while the other end is nowhere near the limit. When you make a sharp input, you get a sharp response.
e.g. roll into a slow turn, give it a big bootfull of throttle - light up the rear and round you go. Yes, I've spun a few times in car parks..
The limit on track, especially in a fast corner is very different. You load the *whole* car up laterally, and eventually it starts to move sideways by a noticable margin. Usually one end or the other will move first - that depends upon the car, but it is rarely sudden as you're not makig big inputs. If the front pushes wide, you'll want to put some more weight over the fronts - back out of the throttle, trail the brakes. If the rear starts to go, put some weight on the back - a smidge more throttle, a little less brake. Rarely does it involve big armfuls of opposite lock. Full throttle smoky drifts are a different matter and rather more tricky. In terms of going fast, just roll it in and roll it out. Smooth, small and let it tell you what's going on.
Lastly, pick the right track. In most cases a spin isn't the end of the world - especially if you don't try too hard to save it and spin *in* corner. It's when you're too keen with the 'oppo' and flick it into spinning away from the corner that it all goes wrong..
Firstly, when it comes to braking, forget braking as you do on the road - i.e. with varying severity. ALWAYS brake as hard as you can. That removes one variable. Then start with a (conservative) braking point, and move it progressively closer to the corner a bit at a time. If you don't do this, it is near impossible to get a consistent entry.
Doing this you will work up to the limit gradually and can start to play. Note that the limit is a big grey zone, not a cliff you suddenly fall off.
Secondly - when you've 'provoked' the car before, be it in a car park, or in slower turns you've probably done it by relatively agressive use of throttle, brake or steering, most likely exceeding grip at one end suddenly and by a lot while the other end is nowhere near the limit. When you make a sharp input, you get a sharp response.
e.g. roll into a slow turn, give it a big bootfull of throttle - light up the rear and round you go. Yes, I've spun a few times in car parks..
The limit on track, especially in a fast corner is very different. You load the *whole* car up laterally, and eventually it starts to move sideways by a noticable margin. Usually one end or the other will move first - that depends upon the car, but it is rarely sudden as you're not makig big inputs. If the front pushes wide, you'll want to put some more weight over the fronts - back out of the throttle, trail the brakes. If the rear starts to go, put some weight on the back - a smidge more throttle, a little less brake. Rarely does it involve big armfuls of opposite lock. Full throttle smoky drifts are a different matter and rather more tricky. In terms of going fast, just roll it in and roll it out. Smooth, small and let it tell you what's going on.
Lastly, pick the right track. In most cases a spin isn't the end of the world - especially if you don't try too hard to save it and spin *in* corner. It's when you're too keen with the 'oppo' and flick it into spinning away from the corner that it all goes wrong..
Frimley111R said:
The biggest challenge I face on track is high speed bends. I am just not sure where the limit is or what will happen when I get there. Will I lose the back, just understeer or what? Its worrying as whatever happens it'll be at high speed and will I be able to cope with it or simply go flying off? How do you cope with this?
Hi (remember me?)Walshy will do this sort of stuff with you on a carlimits day, usually from >80mph and under braking so as to destabilise the car as much as possible in an environment where losing it costs nothing.
Well worth the dough.
CraigyMc said:
Hi (remember me?)
Walshy will do this sort of stuff with you on a carlimits day, usually from >80mph and under braking so as to destabilise the car as much as possible in an environment where losing it costs nothing.
Well worth the dough.
Sorry, no? I did do a proper Walshy day but I din't think it helped much tbh. Walshy will do this sort of stuff with you on a carlimits day, usually from >80mph and under braking so as to destabilise the car as much as possible in an environment where losing it costs nothing.
Well worth the dough.
upsidedownmark said:
2 thoughts on this one:
Firstly, when ................
..........corner. It's when you're too keen with the 'oppo' and flick it into spinning away from the corner that it all goes wrong..
Thanks, some good stuff there. Firstly, when ................
..........corner. It's when you're too keen with the 'oppo' and flick it into spinning away from the corner that it all goes wrong..
At Bedford I piled into a corner about 15mph too quickly (90 degree) and the car spun amazingly quickly and I suppose the chance of doing that at 90mph makes me a bit nervous but I take your point about less aggressive inputs on high speed bends although I'll have to ensure if I understeer that I only slightly release the throttle!
What will happen depends on the car and how you approach the limit. If you can't feel it at all then it is often the car's fault - most modern cars have exceptionally numb feedback and insulate the driver far too much: might that be your real problem here? Most cars with an off switch for stability control don't really turn it off after all. If you learn the sensations in something raw it is much easier to feel what is going on than in less communicative cars, so perhaps your real solution is to by an older mildly shed-ish car to practice tuning your senses in? Or is this problem despite having something agricultural?
But if you have something like a current generation FWD hatchback (your profile shows the Renault of choice for people crashing at the 'ring last year, so I assume that is what we are talking about here) - you won't feel much but the stability system will usually give you wash-out understeer somewhere short of the laws of physics for your tyre grip.
But if you have something like a current generation FWD hatchback (your profile shows the Renault of choice for people crashing at the 'ring last year, so I assume that is what we are talking about here) - you won't feel much but the stability system will usually give you wash-out understeer somewhere short of the laws of physics for your tyre grip.
DiscoColin said:
What will happen depends on the car and how you approach the limit. If you can't feel it at all then it is often the car's fault - most modern cars have exceptionally numb feedback and insulate the driver far too much: might that be your real problem here? Most cars with an off switch for stability control don't really turn it off after all. If you learn the sensations in something raw it is much easier to feel what is going on than in less communicative cars, so perhaps your real solution is to by an older mildly shed-ish car to practice tuning your senses in? Or is this problem despite having something agricultural?
But if you have something like a current generation FWD hatchback (your profile shows the Renault of choice for people crashing at the 'ring last year, so I assume that is what we are talking about here) - you won't feel much but the stability system will usually give you wash-out understeer somewhere short of the laws of physics for your tyre grip.
My problem is that I am scared of pushing to the limit as I am not sure what will happen if I cross it (at high speed!). Yes, I have a Megane RS265 but had an Elise before that. The feedback isn't an issue yet. I am also due to acquire an MG ZS V6 soon so that I can avoid damaging a £15k car!But if you have something like a current generation FWD hatchback (your profile shows the Renault of choice for people crashing at the 'ring last year, so I assume that is what we are talking about here) - you won't feel much but the stability system will usually give you wash-out understeer somewhere short of the laws of physics for your tyre grip.
don't back off suddenly!
i empathise. It's corners like Coram at Snett which can be scary at times. long, long corner at high speed fully loaded up with at best neutral camber maybe even negative. Upsidedown is right. Maybe best to explore the limits at Bedford (rather than Coram) by deliberately entering a specific corner faster and faster, but keep it smooth and stay alert - don't 'brace' as such, just be aware/alert/ready to catch it with a little steering/throttle/lift. Spin it, apologise to the marshals and stop for a while!
Walshy's high speed bend is great but not completely analogous to a track day situation i agree. it's developing the feel, It's seat time that we all need.
i empathise. It's corners like Coram at Snett which can be scary at times. long, long corner at high speed fully loaded up with at best neutral camber maybe even negative. Upsidedown is right. Maybe best to explore the limits at Bedford (rather than Coram) by deliberately entering a specific corner faster and faster, but keep it smooth and stay alert - don't 'brace' as such, just be aware/alert/ready to catch it with a little steering/throttle/lift. Spin it, apologise to the marshals and stop for a while!
Walshy's high speed bend is great but not completely analogous to a track day situation i agree. it's developing the feel, It's seat time that we all need.
Frimley111R said:
Thanks, some good stuff there.
At Bedford I piled into a corner about 15mph too quickly (90 degree) and the car spun amazingly quickly and I suppose the chance of doing that at 90mph makes me a bit nervous but I take your point about less aggressive inputs on high speed bends although I'll have to ensure if I understeer that I only slightly release the throttle!
Couple more thoughts then..At Bedford I piled into a corner about 15mph too quickly (90 degree) and the car spun amazingly quickly and I suppose the chance of doing that at 90mph makes me a bit nervous but I take your point about less aggressive inputs on high speed bends although I'll have to ensure if I understeer that I only slightly release the throttle!
Start by working on consistent, controlled arrival speed; 15mph is quite a lot of too fast. One thing that tends to result in a pretty sharp spin is turning in with significant brake on - there's a reason the numpty brief says brake in a straight line
With practice, you deliberately carry a little brake through turn in, but it's subtle, and less pronounced for fast corners.It does take a lot of confidence to release the middle pedal when you think you're too fast. Sadly it tends to be ingrained into us that the solution to any problem is to brake, but you can get round with a considerably faster entry than optimal. Just means you'll be very late back on the throttle, miss the apex and be slow on exit. Or just ignore the marked turn in, scrub speed in a straight line and then turn in later (or not at all if it's really bad!), don't take the cones as gospel, you have to manage the car first.. Great thing about bedford is that there are very few places you can't afford to run a bit wide.
Don't know the meganes, or have a lot of FWD experience, but the elise should be a great teacher and very communicative.
I like to enter the faster corners slowly and exit as fast as possible that way you get a feel for what grip there is.
Coppice at Cadwell is just a dab and turn in, Coram is a build up speed through the corner till I feel the car start to move about underneath me then hold that pace.
Blanchimont, I am looking forward to learning that one, been there many times but still not sure I have found the best line or entry/exit speed.
Coppice at Cadwell is just a dab and turn in, Coram is a build up speed through the corner till I feel the car start to move about underneath me then hold that pace.
Blanchimont, I am looking forward to learning that one, been there many times but still not sure I have found the best line or entry/exit speed.
gruffalo said:
I like to enter the faster corners slowly and exit as fast as possible that way you get a feel for what grip there is.
This x1000. I never had a problem with faster corners when I raced, was generally as quick as anyone through them. The above is the key you just have to develop the guts to get that right pedal down and keep it there, then you go faster by gradually carrying more mid corner speed, then do fast entry last as that is the most dangerous part. If you go into high speed corners to fast your either going to spin or run out of road both of which are 10x worse in a fast corner than a slow one.upsidedownmark said:
Start by working on consistent, controlled arrival speed; 15mph is quite a lot of too fast. One thing that tends to result in a pretty sharp spin is turning in with significant brake on - there's a reason the numpty brief says brake in a straight line With practice, you deliberately carry a little brake through turn in, but it's subtle, and less pronounced for fast corners.
Slightly ironic story with that one. I was a Bedford and doing fine but took some instruction and then went out again. My memory let me down. On the far part of the circuit there are two left handers close together. I remembered the instructor saying "Dab the brakes, turn in" and then the same again. What he had said in reality was "Dab the brakes, turn in, Brake, turn in." Ooops and...(below). Even more scary is that they have since build a huge bank there that I would have hit at about 40mph! With practice, you deliberately carry a little brake through turn in, but it's subtle, and less pronounced for fast corners.
[url=https://flic.kr/p/qZPNhT]Edited by Frimley111R on Tuesday 2nd February 08:46
Frimley111R said:
My problem is that I am scared of pushing to the limit as I am not sure what will happen if I cross it (at high speed!). Yes, I have a Megane RS265 but had an Elise before that. The feedback isn't an issue yet. I am also due to acquire an MG ZS V6 soon so that I can avoid damaging a £15k car!
Have a watch of this guy in an Elise at Bedford. Notice how he lets the wheel turn itself when correcting oversteer and how relaxed it can be:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8_lFxWpaRI
james_gt3rs said:
Frimley111R said:
My problem is that I am scared of pushing to the limit as I am not sure what will happen if I cross it (at high speed!). Yes, I have a Megane RS265 but had an Elise before that. The feedback isn't an issue yet. I am also due to acquire an MG ZS V6 soon so that I can avoid damaging a £15k car!
Have a watch of this guy in an Elise at Bedford. Notice how he lets the wheel turn itself when correcting oversteer and how relaxed it can be:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8_lFxWpaRI
One of the most memorable passenger sessions I've ever had at a track day was in the Guglielmi preparad, Audi-engined, slick-shod Elise S1 at Donnington. Staggering car.
CABC said:
Digga said:
Guglielmi preparad, Audi-engined, slick-shod Elise S1 .
yikes! Chris Evans should have a go in that.This would be Chris:
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