High speed cornering - approaching the limit?
Discussion
You are obviously struggling with steering feel, first bit of advice to get better steering feel push with your outer hand don't pull with your inner that will help you feel where the grip is.
To find the grip level for a given speed don't brake later and later, that is the worst advice.
Brake in the same place just brake less, and carry more speed, you want to be entering the corner at a constant speed on a constant throttle, you can then modulate based on what the car is telling you, if it starts to 'push' (most likely) and you aren't running out of road, leave the throttle the same, if you are running out of road gently ease off until you feel the grip coming back. keep all inputs smooth and don't change the steering angle that'll make it worse.
Once you know the limit, you can then move the braking point later and later.
My dad thinks braking later will make him faster, but its apex speed that will give you bigger gains as I can prove with the data log, you can add late braking after. You will find that trying to brake later will add too many other variables (weight transfer etc) and cause you to spin and take the focus away from what you are trying to achieve.....corner speed.
When it all comes together you should be able to go through the fast ones with only steering input on entry and the wheel pointing straight all the way through. Nothing feels better.
To find the grip level for a given speed don't brake later and later, that is the worst advice.
Brake in the same place just brake less, and carry more speed, you want to be entering the corner at a constant speed on a constant throttle, you can then modulate based on what the car is telling you, if it starts to 'push' (most likely) and you aren't running out of road, leave the throttle the same, if you are running out of road gently ease off until you feel the grip coming back. keep all inputs smooth and don't change the steering angle that'll make it worse.
Once you know the limit, you can then move the braking point later and later.
My dad thinks braking later will make him faster, but its apex speed that will give you bigger gains as I can prove with the data log, you can add late braking after. You will find that trying to brake later will add too many other variables (weight transfer etc) and cause you to spin and take the focus away from what you are trying to achieve.....corner speed.
When it all comes together you should be able to go through the fast ones with only steering input on entry and the wheel pointing straight all the way through. Nothing feels better.
Bertrum said:
You are obviously struggling with steering feel, first bit of advice to get better steering feel push with your outer hand don't pull with your inner that will help you feel where the grip is.
Nice one. And don't grip too tight either - if your wrists ache the day after, you're gripping way too hard!One technique to build up to the 'nearly flat' corner is to progressively increase the entry speed whilst getting used to the feeling of taking the corner with accelerator pinned.
e.g. at Spa both Eau Rouge and Blanchimont happen to be like this in my car (in the dry without a passenger). To gradually increase the entry speed I can short shift from the previous corner and progressively increase the revs each lap.
e.g. at Spa both Eau Rouge and Blanchimont happen to be like this in my car (in the dry without a passenger). To gradually increase the entry speed I can short shift from the previous corner and progressively increase the revs each lap.
alicrozier said:
One technique to build up to the 'nearly flat' corner is to progressively increase the entry speed whilst getting used to the feeling of taking the corner with accelerator pinned.
e.g. at Spa both Eau Rouge and Blanchimont happen to be like this in my car (in the dry without a passenger). To gradually increase the entry speed I can short shift from the previous corner and progressively increase the revs each lap.
definitely looks good. what tyres? e.g. at Spa both Eau Rouge and Blanchimont happen to be like this in my car (in the dry without a passenger). To gradually increase the entry speed I can short shift from the previous corner and progressively increase the revs each lap.
Digga said:
gruffalo said:
Sorry to tight to pay for the full photo but did someone mention a well set up car?
Flat circuit and look at the OSF wheel.
gruffalo said:
Digga said:
gruffalo said:
Sorry to tight to pay for the full photo but did someone mention a well set up car?
Flat circuit and look at the OSF wheel.
Bertrum said:
You are obviously struggling with steering feel, first bit of advice to get better steering feel push with your outer hand don't pull with your inner that will help you feel where the grip is.
.....
When it all comes together you should be able to go through the fast ones with only steering input on entry and the wheel pointing straight all the way through. Nothing feels better.
Ok, sounds good too. Lessen the braking. I tend to improve lap times at the moment by leaving it later and later but I am a little confused about the first part of the corner/corner entry. I brake in hte braking zone but do I get off the brake and then accelerate through it once I have turned in or do I slightly trail brake and then accelerate through the corner? (I really need to be track doing this now! .....
When it all comes together you should be able to go through the fast ones with only steering input on entry and the wheel pointing straight all the way through. Nothing feels better.
)Frimley111R said:
DiscoColin said:
What will happen depends on the car and how you approach the limit. If you can't feel it at all then it is often the car's fault - most modern cars have exceptionally numb feedback and insulate the driver far too much: might that be your real problem here? Most cars with an off switch for stability control don't really turn it off after all. If you learn the sensations in something raw it is much easier to feel what is going on than in less communicative cars, so perhaps your real solution is to by an older mildly shed-ish car to practice tuning your senses in? Or is this problem despite having something agricultural?
But if you have something like a current generation FWD hatchback (your profile shows the Renault of choice for people crashing at the 'ring last year, so I assume that is what we are talking about here) - you won't feel much but the stability system will usually give you wash-out understeer somewhere short of the laws of physics for your tyre grip.
My problem is that I am scared of pushing to the limit as I am not sure what will happen if I cross it (at high speed!). Yes, I have a Megane RS265 but had an Elise before that. The feedback isn't an issue yet. I am also due to acquire an MG ZS V6 soon so that I can avoid damaging a £15k car!But if you have something like a current generation FWD hatchback (your profile shows the Renault of choice for people crashing at the 'ring last year, so I assume that is what we are talking about here) - you won't feel much but the stability system will usually give you wash-out understeer somewhere short of the laws of physics for your tyre grip.
Frimley111R said:
Ok, sounds good too. Lessen the braking. I tend to improve lap times at the moment by leaving it later and later but I am a little confused about the first part of the corner/corner entry. I brake in hte braking zone but do I get off the brake and then accelerate through it once I have turned in or do I slightly trail brake and then accelerate through the corner? (I really need to be track doing this now! )
As you turn in, you're trying to balance the weight of the car, using the only two means you have: brake or throttle.)Thinking in terms of over or under steer either can be reduced by weighting the tyres which are sliding. If you lack turn in, trail braking can help, but ultimately there comes a transition where you will blend off the brakes and onto the throttle to accelerate out. In the middle of this transition is a state of front/rear balance where there's enough throttle to keep it all neutral. Everything needs to be smooth. I was never too good with that last bit.
Bertrum said:
You are obviously struggling with steering feel, first bit of advice to get better steering feel push with your outer hand don't pull with your inner that will help you feel where the grip is.
To find the grip level for a given speed don't brake later and later, that is the worst advice.
Brake in the same place just brake less, and carry more speed, you want to be entering the corner at a constant speed on a constant throttle, you can then modulate based on what the car is telling you, if it starts to 'push' (most likely) and you aren't running out of road, leave the throttle the same, if you are running out of road gently ease off until you feel the grip coming back. keep all inputs smooth and don't change the steering angle that'll make it worse.
Once you know the limit, you can then move the braking point later and later.
My dad thinks braking later will make him faster, but its apex speed that will give you bigger gains as I can prove with the data log, you can add late braking after. You will find that trying to brake later will add too many other variables (weight transfer etc) and cause you to spin and take the focus away from what you are trying to achieve.....corner speed.
When it all comes together you should be able to go through the fast ones with only steering input on entry and the wheel pointing straight all the way through. Nothing feels better.
Interesting. You recommend the absolute opposite of any instructor I've ever been in a car with To find the grip level for a given speed don't brake later and later, that is the worst advice.
Brake in the same place just brake less, and carry more speed, you want to be entering the corner at a constant speed on a constant throttle, you can then modulate based on what the car is telling you, if it starts to 'push' (most likely) and you aren't running out of road, leave the throttle the same, if you are running out of road gently ease off until you feel the grip coming back. keep all inputs smooth and don't change the steering angle that'll make it worse.
Once you know the limit, you can then move the braking point later and later.
My dad thinks braking later will make him faster, but its apex speed that will give you bigger gains as I can prove with the data log, you can add late braking after. You will find that trying to brake later will add too many other variables (weight transfer etc) and cause you to spin and take the focus away from what you are trying to achieve.....corner speed.
When it all comes together you should be able to go through the fast ones with only steering input on entry and the wheel pointing straight all the way through. Nothing feels better.
We (the human) are much better/more sensitive at pulling than pushing, hence don't push..
Check out a brake trace from a proper racing driver. I can absolutely guarantee they're not dicking around with pedal pressure pre turn in. It's as much as you can without locking. How you come off the pedal is another debate, but when in doubt, do it before you twirl the wheel.
Apex speed is good yes, but that's achieved by entering faster, not by braking gently for 200m instead of hard for 100. I do agree that you shouldn't be aiming to brake at the last possible moment that you can achieve without leaving the track, but it should be HARD and as late as possible to get you to the turn in point at the appropriate speed. Again, by braking hard all the time, your arrival speed is dictated by when you hit the stop pedal, NOT by waving your finger in the wind and hoping.
The point is to start with a conservative braking point and brake hard. When you trundle round the corner like miss daisy, you can move the braking point a bit closer - rinse and repeat until you find 'right'.
Actually, by far the best advice I can give is to get a proper instructor in the car. There are some good ones on track days, but the majority tend to tell you what to do "accelerate, brake now, turn in now", rather than how to do it. That will make a world of difference to your confidence and technique.
I'd also question the one steering input idea - that I have heard before, and it's true you shouldn't be sawing away at the wheel.. however as the car slows to the apex, you can decrease the radius (more lock), and conversely as you accelerate the car you need to / ought to be taking lock off (opening the radius). The normal visualisation that's used is to imagine there's a string from the steering wheel to the accelerator pedal. As you add lock it winds the string so the pedal must come up, as you put the pedal down, the lock must come off..
upsidedownmark said:
Bertrum said:
You are obviously struggling with steering feel, first bit of advice to get better steering feel push with your outer hand don't pull with your inner that will help you feel where the grip is.
To find the grip level for a given speed don't brake later and later, that is the worst advice.
Brake in the same place just brake less, and carry more speed, you want to be entering the corner at a constant speed on a constant throttle, you can then modulate based on what the car is telling you, if it starts to 'push' (most likely) and you aren't running out of road, leave the throttle the same, if you are running out of road gently ease off until you feel the grip coming back. keep all inputs smooth and don't change the steering angle that'll make it worse.
Once you know the limit, you can then move the braking point later and later.
My dad thinks braking later will make him faster, but its apex speed that will give you bigger gains as I can prove with the data log, you can add late braking after. You will find that trying to brake later will add too many other variables (weight transfer etc) and cause you to spin and take the focus away from what you are trying to achieve.....corner speed.
When it all comes together you should be able to go through the fast ones with only steering input on entry and the wheel pointing straight all the way through. Nothing feels better.
Interesting. You recommend the absolute opposite of any instructor I've ever been in a car with To find the grip level for a given speed don't brake later and later, that is the worst advice.
Brake in the same place just brake less, and carry more speed, you want to be entering the corner at a constant speed on a constant throttle, you can then modulate based on what the car is telling you, if it starts to 'push' (most likely) and you aren't running out of road, leave the throttle the same, if you are running out of road gently ease off until you feel the grip coming back. keep all inputs smooth and don't change the steering angle that'll make it worse.
Once you know the limit, you can then move the braking point later and later.
My dad thinks braking later will make him faster, but its apex speed that will give you bigger gains as I can prove with the data log, you can add late braking after. You will find that trying to brake later will add too many other variables (weight transfer etc) and cause you to spin and take the focus away from what you are trying to achieve.....corner speed.
When it all comes together you should be able to go through the fast ones with only steering input on entry and the wheel pointing straight all the way through. Nothing feels better.
We (the human) are much better/more sensitive at pulling than pushing, hence don't push..
Check out a brake trace from a proper racing driver. I can absolutely guarantee they're not dicking around with pedal pressure pre turn in. It's as much as you can without locking. How you come off the pedal is another debate, but when in doubt, do it before you twirl the wheel.
Apex speed is good yes, but that's achieved by entering faster, not by braking gently for 200m instead of hard for 100. I do agree that you shouldn't be aiming to brake at the last possible moment that you can achieve without leaving the track, but it should be HARD and as late as possible to get you to the turn in point at the appropriate speed. Again, by braking hard all the time, your arrival speed is dictated by when you hit the stop pedal, NOT by waving your finger in the wind and hoping.
The point is to start with a conservative braking point and brake hard. When you trundle round the corner like miss daisy, you can move the braking point a bit closer - rinse and repeat until you find 'right'.
Actually, by far the best advice I can give is to get a proper instructor in the car. There are some good ones on track days, but the majority tend to tell you what to do "accelerate, brake now, turn in now", rather than how to do it. That will make a world of difference to your confidence and technique.
I'd also question the one steering input idea - that I have heard before, and it's true you shouldn't be sawing away at the wheel.. however as the car slows to the apex, you can decrease the radius (more lock), and conversely as you accelerate the car you need to / ought to be taking lock off (opening the radius). The normal visualisation that's used is to imagine there's a string from the steering wheel to the accelerator pedal. As you add lock it winds the string so the pedal must come up, as you put the pedal down, the lock must come off..
upsidedownmark said:
Interesting. You recommend the absolute opposite of any instructor I've ever been in a car with
We (the human) are much better/more sensitive at pulling than pushing, hence don't push..
Check out a brake trace from a proper racing driver. I can absolutely guarantee they're not dicking around with pedal pressure pre turn in. It's as much as you can without locking. How you come off the pedal is another debate, but when in doubt, do it before you twirl the wheel.
Apex speed is good yes, but that's achieved by entering faster, not by braking gently for 200m instead of hard for 100. I do agree that you shouldn't be aiming to brake at the last possible moment that you can achieve without leaving the track, but it should be HARD and as late as possible to get you to the turn in point at the appropriate speed. Again, by braking hard all the time, your arrival speed is dictated by when you hit the stop pedal, NOT by waving your finger in the wind and hoping.
The point is to start with a conservative braking point and brake hard. When you trundle round the corner like miss daisy, you can move the braking point a bit closer - rinse and repeat until you find 'right'.
Actually, by far the best advice I can give is to get a proper instructor in the car. There are some good ones on track days, but the majority tend to tell you what to do "accelerate, brake now, turn in now", rather than how to do it. That will make a world of difference to your confidence and technique.
I'd also question the one steering input idea - that I have heard before, and it's true you shouldn't be sawing away at the wheel.. however as the car slows to the apex, you can decrease the radius (more lock), and conversely as you accelerate the car you need to / ought to be taking lock off (opening the radius). The normal visualisation that's used is to imagine there's a string from the steering wheel to the accelerator pedal. As you add lock it winds the string so the pedal must come up, as you put the pedal down, the lock must come off..
Did you actually read what I wrote? Secondly my advice is aimed at a track novice lacking confidence not someone looking to improve their race speed. We (the human) are much better/more sensitive at pulling than pushing, hence don't push..
Check out a brake trace from a proper racing driver. I can absolutely guarantee they're not dicking around with pedal pressure pre turn in. It's as much as you can without locking. How you come off the pedal is another debate, but when in doubt, do it before you twirl the wheel.
Apex speed is good yes, but that's achieved by entering faster, not by braking gently for 200m instead of hard for 100. I do agree that you shouldn't be aiming to brake at the last possible moment that you can achieve without leaving the track, but it should be HARD and as late as possible to get you to the turn in point at the appropriate speed. Again, by braking hard all the time, your arrival speed is dictated by when you hit the stop pedal, NOT by waving your finger in the wind and hoping.
The point is to start with a conservative braking point and brake hard. When you trundle round the corner like miss daisy, you can move the braking point a bit closer - rinse and repeat until you find 'right'.
Actually, by far the best advice I can give is to get a proper instructor in the car. There are some good ones on track days, but the majority tend to tell you what to do "accelerate, brake now, turn in now", rather than how to do it. That will make a world of difference to your confidence and technique.
I'd also question the one steering input idea - that I have heard before, and it's true you shouldn't be sawing away at the wheel.. however as the car slows to the apex, you can decrease the radius (more lock), and conversely as you accelerate the car you need to / ought to be taking lock off (opening the radius). The normal visualisation that's used is to imagine there's a string from the steering wheel to the accelerator pedal. As you add lock it winds the string so the pedal must come up, as you put the pedal down, the lock must come off..
I didn't say brake gently for 200 meters. I said brake in the same place each lap just brake less, less not more gently. This way you can change your entry speed. Once you figure that out brake later and later which will give you lap time gains.
Secondly the steering input, you obviously wind it off, I was talking about up to and through apex, and I was specifically referring to dealing with undesteer ie don't wind more on.
Try the push rather than pull steering method, I guarantee its better. Interested to hear which instructors you have been talking to. It's not about human sensitivity it's about the mechanics of operating a steering wheel.
Don't get me started on track day instructors!!
PM me and I'll put you in touch with some awesome instructors.
In terms of basics, almost all cars will start to understeer in this circumstance. The natural reaction is to counter this with more lock; if you are also giving it some gas and then decide to remove this then the front wheels will gain grip very quickly and you will spin before you know what has happened. This is almost always the cause of spinning on a high speed corner.
The key thing is to keep all inputs smooth (hint with a small turn of the wheel as you set yourself up) - trail braking into a bend will give you more grip at the front on turn in to counter the understeer issue and will set you up for a good exit form the apex rather than pushing wide but it has to be done very carefully, so although I agree with the advice above I wouldn't do it straight away. Enter the bend at a relatively conservative speed and see what effect the throttle has on the car without adjusting your steering input. You will find that it predictably pushes wide and will tighten up if you come off the throttle slightly. Then increase the speed on entry gradually, maintaining a balanced throttle and make sure you use all the track available. When you feel that you simply cannot go any quicker without the need for more steering input (creating a greater slip angle) then you know you're not far off. You can then start playing with more advanced techniques like trail braking to optimise the corner speed.
The key thing is to keep all inputs smooth (hint with a small turn of the wheel as you set yourself up) - trail braking into a bend will give you more grip at the front on turn in to counter the understeer issue and will set you up for a good exit form the apex rather than pushing wide but it has to be done very carefully, so although I agree with the advice above I wouldn't do it straight away. Enter the bend at a relatively conservative speed and see what effect the throttle has on the car without adjusting your steering input. You will find that it predictably pushes wide and will tighten up if you come off the throttle slightly. Then increase the speed on entry gradually, maintaining a balanced throttle and make sure you use all the track available. When you feel that you simply cannot go any quicker without the need for more steering input (creating a greater slip angle) then you know you're not far off. You can then start playing with more advanced techniques like trail braking to optimise the corner speed.
CABC said:
alicrozier said:
One technique to build up to the 'nearly flat' corner is to progressively increase the entry speed whilst getting used to the feeling of taking the corner with accelerator pinned.
e.g. at Spa both Eau Rouge and Blanchimont happen to be like this in my car (in the dry without a passenger). To gradually increase the entry speed I can short shift from the previous corner and progressively increase the revs each lap.
definitely looks good. what tyres? e.g. at Spa both Eau Rouge and Blanchimont happen to be like this in my car (in the dry without a passenger). To gradually increase the entry speed I can short shift from the previous corner and progressively increase the revs each lap.
Bertrum: Yes, I did - it makes a bit more sense with your clarification, though I still completely disagree, but hey ho..
Ginettajoe: Quite possibly
NJH: 'Late' turn in and apex is generally more pronounced for tighter corners where exit traction is more of an issue.. with a (relatively) earlier turn in for fast ones.. though I'm sure you're right.
Ginettajoe: Quite possibly
NJH: 'Late' turn in and apex is generally more pronounced for tighter corners where exit traction is more of an issue.. with a (relatively) earlier turn in for fast ones.. though I'm sure you're right.
alicrozier said:
Avon ZZR on the Lotus 2-11 (I think I can safely say wouldn't be flat in the Golf or Evora!)
oops, i actually meant to ask Gruff about his Cerb with one wheel up!anyway, good to know about the Avons, they became the Lotus race tyre a few ago right? how are they in the wet/cold?
I have an Elise with AD07s.
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