Sticky or hard tyres for novice trackday driver
Discussion
I have a ZX14R Bike engined RWD Kit car. I've done a couple of track days at Blyton and will be doing half a dozen on bigger tracks this 'season'. Still a novice really, so would like some advice on tyres. (Not another 'what tyre' thread though).
Should I go for a sticky semi-slick which will keep me on track without back end braking away, have higher speed before loses grip but break away swiftly...?
Or should I go for a hard cheap black round tyre that will not be as grippy, and allow it to break away at a lower speed...?
I can usually wind on opposite lock when back end starts to slide, but not been great at unwinding it quickly enough to stop a spin. So my thoughts are if I choose a lower grip tyre, if I do spin it will be a lower speed... I also might learn how to control over-steer a bit better with lower speed. But would appreciate thoughts from better drivers.
Should I go for a sticky semi-slick which will keep me on track without back end braking away, have higher speed before loses grip but break away swiftly...?
Or should I go for a hard cheap black round tyre that will not be as grippy, and allow it to break away at a lower speed...?
I can usually wind on opposite lock when back end starts to slide, but not been great at unwinding it quickly enough to stop a spin. So my thoughts are if I choose a lower grip tyre, if I do spin it will be a lower speed... I also might learn how to control over-steer a bit better with lower speed. But would appreciate thoughts from better drivers.
What we did when my son was starting out on track was road tyres in the morning then R tyres after lunch.
He could feel what the car was doing more on the road tyres and they gave decent feedback, then when he switched to R tyres afterwards not only could he feel the benefits of the extra grip but he could understand where they were better and take advantage of that.
He could feel what the car was doing more on the road tyres and they gave decent feedback, then when he switched to R tyres afterwards not only could he feel the benefits of the extra grip but he could understand where they were better and take advantage of that.
Go with the 'normal' tyres to help you get a feel for the car. Limits will be lower as you say but also the transition from grip to slip will be much more progressive.
i.e. the 'operating window' at the limit of grip is much wider so you can get used to driving it close to that limit.
You often see novices modifying suspension, putting on sticky tyres etc which all make the thing harder to drive at the limit. OK they make the limit higher hence easier to drive a bit faster over a lap but increasingly the driver is the limiting factor until (often inadvertently and by a large margin because they don't know where the limit is) they exceed that limit with no chance of sorting it out and have a major off.
i.e. the 'operating window' at the limit of grip is much wider so you can get used to driving it close to that limit.
You often see novices modifying suspension, putting on sticky tyres etc which all make the thing harder to drive at the limit. OK they make the limit higher hence easier to drive a bit faster over a lap but increasingly the driver is the limiting factor until (often inadvertently and by a large margin because they don't know where the limit is) they exceed that limit with no chance of sorting it out and have a major off.
chutley said:
I can usually wind on opposite lock when back end starts to slide, but not been great at unwinding it quickly enough to stop a spin.
I have found that some kit cars are tricky to unwind progressively as you catch a slide, have you got a decently quick ratio rack on there?chutley said:
otolith said:
Worth spending some time at Carlimits to get the hang of it where you aren't going to hit anything or anybody?
Had a look at that - looks perfect for me. Thanks for the tip.Also book an early session with an instructor on your track day.
Book an Opentrack day and it is included within the price.
When you do gain enough experience to progress to semi-sticky track tyres, Federal 595 RSRs do have two advantages:
1. They are very progressive, ie you get loads of gradually increasing warning that you are approaching the limit
2. They are half the price of many of the alternatives.
They also make a pretty good road tyre in all but a monsoon or blizzard.
1. They are very progressive, ie you get loads of gradually increasing warning that you are approaching the limit
2. They are half the price of many of the alternatives.
They also make a pretty good road tyre in all but a monsoon or blizzard.
Use good tyres no matter what.
BUT
If you are insecure, underinflate them a bit. This will make your them less grippy and make the limit easy'er to control.
If the tyre is overinflated the limit will be snappy,
and if you load the tyre much, there is even a risk for that the tyre will have explode. (The pressure increases when it gets hot, and if you load it a lot, this pressure can be dangerous)
BUT
If you are insecure, underinflate them a bit. This will make your them less grippy and make the limit easy'er to control.
If the tyre is overinflated the limit will be snappy,
and if you load the tyre much, there is even a risk for that the tyre will have explode. (The pressure increases when it gets hot, and if you load it a lot, this pressure can be dangerous)
Erm, I think the above post might be a touch mixed up.
If you underinflate the tyre, it deforms more and creates more heat, which in turn increases pressure more.
A tyre with more air in will actually dissipate heat better, because they are more air molecules to share the heat around. This is why HGVs use daft pressures (check the stickers on the body next time you drive past one on a motorway).
On the subject of tyres, I'm a huge fan of crap ones for learning with. If you are trying to learn the balance and skill involved in hustling a car around on the limit, a tyre with lower grip will allow you to learn this much more easily than a really grippy tyre that allows you to just blast around relatively quickly without any sort of wobbles. If you just want to go fast, then yes, the latest super grippy ToYokohAvon is great, but I see many drivers using these tyres who have clearly never learned to drive on less grippy ones - they are quick compared to most cars, but nowhere near the limit of the car, therefore actually quite slow in relation to the capability of their machine.
If you underinflate the tyre, it deforms more and creates more heat, which in turn increases pressure more.
A tyre with more air in will actually dissipate heat better, because they are more air molecules to share the heat around. This is why HGVs use daft pressures (check the stickers on the body next time you drive past one on a motorway).
On the subject of tyres, I'm a huge fan of crap ones for learning with. If you are trying to learn the balance and skill involved in hustling a car around on the limit, a tyre with lower grip will allow you to learn this much more easily than a really grippy tyre that allows you to just blast around relatively quickly without any sort of wobbles. If you just want to go fast, then yes, the latest super grippy ToYokohAvon is great, but I see many drivers using these tyres who have clearly never learned to drive on less grippy ones - they are quick compared to most cars, but nowhere near the limit of the car, therefore actually quite slow in relation to the capability of their machine.
QBee said:
When you do gain enough experience to progress to semi-sticky track tyres, Federal 595 RSRs do have two advantages:
1. They are very progressive, ie you get loads of gradually increasing warning that you are approaching the limit
2. They are half the price of many of the alternatives.
They also make a pretty good road tyre in all but a monsoon or blizzard.
These must really vary between cars, as they were absolutely s1. They are very progressive, ie you get loads of gradually increasing warning that you are approaching the limit
2. They are half the price of many of the alternatives.
They also make a pretty good road tyre in all but a monsoon or blizzard.
te on the Noble on track! Decent on road though.AdamR172 said:
Erm, I think the above post might be a touch mixed up.
On the subject of tyres, I'm a huge fan of crap ones for learning with. If you are trying to learn the balance and skill involved in hustling a car around on the limit, a tyre with lower grip will allow you to learn this much more easily than a really grippy tyre that allows you to just blast around relatively quickly without any sort of wobbles..
I have a second set of wheels that came with the car. They are shod with some brand new Yokohoma Prada Spec 2 tyres. They are quite cheap tyres, and I don't think they are particularly grippy. I'll try them and see how they go.On the subject of tyres, I'm a huge fan of crap ones for learning with. If you are trying to learn the balance and skill involved in hustling a car around on the limit, a tyre with lower grip will allow you to learn this much more easily than a really grippy tyre that allows you to just blast around relatively quickly without any sort of wobbles..
I also have a set of Yokohama AD08R for the other set of wheels. They sound like a good compromise. Like everyone, main aim is to have some fun and stay away from the armco etc.
chutley said:
They are shod with some brand new Yokohoma Prada Spec 2 tyres. They are quite cheap tyres, and I don't think they are particularly grippy. I'll try them and see how they go.
Appalling tyres. AVOID !!!Crap in the rain, soft sidewalls and overheat FAR too easily..
I have nothing good to say about them whatsoever I`m afraid
AdamR172 said:
Erm, I think the above post might be a touch mixed up.
If you underinflate the tyre, it deforms more and creates more heat, which in turn increases pressure more.
Both yes and no.If you underinflate the tyre, it deforms more and creates more heat, which in turn increases pressure more.
If your optimal pressure is 2.5 bar.
If you run 2 bar instead of 2.5 in a normal street tyre. It will have less grip with a wide limit.
If you run 3 bar instead of 2.5 bar. It will have less grip with a more narrow limit.
Yes the air will get hotter in the low pressure tyre, but there is less air to expand compared to the highpressure example.
Does it make sense now?
Aah, I think we are talking about slightly different things.
I agree about the differences in feel / grip when the pressure is different from the 'optimal', but my point was that if you start a tyre at, say, 15psi and then hammer it on track, it will end up at a higher pressure more quickly than if you started the same tyre at 20psi.
I agree about the differences in feel / grip when the pressure is different from the 'optimal', but my point was that if you start a tyre at, say, 15psi and then hammer it on track, it will end up at a higher pressure more quickly than if you started the same tyre at 20psi.
Wh00sher said:
chutley said:
They are shod with some brand new Yokohoma Prada Spec 2 tyres. They are quite cheap tyres, and I don't think they are particularly grippy. I'll try them and see how they go.
Appalling tyres. AVOID !!!Crap in the rain, soft sidewalls and overheat FAR too easily..
I have nothing good to say about them whatsoever I`m afraid
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