Possibly a new challenge for the new year.
Discussion
Obviously, I am thinking ahead to next year by the title.
Currently have an e36 328 coupe with the usual mods (cage/harnesses/seats/suspension/brakes/inlet/exhaust/spoilers/splitter etc. and maybe thinking of a new car/challenge as I think I have done it to death.
I figure it is worth somewhere over £2K and am looking around the same mark, obviously mechanical integrity is more important than cosmetic condition, so I am thinking maybe 225 Megane (big ass type) or Cooper S around the £2k mark and then again do the rest bit by bit. Actually, the more I think about it & look around a Clio 182 could also be a likely candidate.
1. Has anyone first hand experience of either particularly from the point of taking track abuse?
2. What are they like for upgrade parts for the track?
3. Any must do/must not do's with these?
I know these things get cone to death & it is only a definitely maybe, but I have no direct experience of either, so just thought I would ask.
Currently have an e36 328 coupe with the usual mods (cage/harnesses/seats/suspension/brakes/inlet/exhaust/spoilers/splitter etc. and maybe thinking of a new car/challenge as I think I have done it to death.
I figure it is worth somewhere over £2K and am looking around the same mark, obviously mechanical integrity is more important than cosmetic condition, so I am thinking maybe 225 Megane (big ass type) or Cooper S around the £2k mark and then again do the rest bit by bit. Actually, the more I think about it & look around a Clio 182 could also be a likely candidate.
1. Has anyone first hand experience of either particularly from the point of taking track abuse?
2. What are they like for upgrade parts for the track?
3. Any must do/must not do's with these?
I know these things get cone to death & it is only a definitely maybe, but I have no direct experience of either, so just thought I would ask.
Edited by E-bmw on Monday 18th July 19:09
E-bmw said:
1. Has anyone first hand experience of either particularly from the point of taking track abuse?
2. What are they like for upgrade parts for the track?
3. Any must do/must not do's with these?
I know these things get cone to death & it is only a definitely maybe, but I have no direct experience of either, so just thought I would ask.
I have a Clio 182 which I have owned for 18 months, attending 6 track days. 2. What are they like for upgrade parts for the track?
3. Any must do/must not do's with these?
I know these things get cone to death & it is only a definitely maybe, but I have no direct experience of either, so just thought I would ask.
Edited by E-bmw on Monday 18th July 19:09
1. No issues so far, thankfully they can take a lot of abuse and parts are fairly cheap to replace.
2. Main bits - I purchased a decent shock/spring (adjustable) set at c£550 which have been very good, decent brake discs are under £100 per set and Brembo OEM pads are £30 per set or Ferodo DS2000 pads are £125 per set.
3. Do above. Not - Chase BHP, look elsewhere...
They are good fun cheap cars, my only frustration is the lack of straight-line power. The bends are the fun part but a little more in the straights to get past slower cars would be nice. Some track day goers don't like letting Clio's past...
PS. Cliosport.net cost £12 per year to join, endless amount of info!
Thanks VERY much for that very good helpful info, exactly what I wanted to hear/was worried about!
Whilst I know they are good for fun in the twisties, you may have just confirmed what I was thinking, it is all well & good catching everyone up on the corners until you have to do the same again every corner.
At some point I will probably get frustrated with catching up in every corner, every corner, every corner.
Whilst I know they are good for fun in the twisties, you may have just confirmed what I was thinking, it is all well & good catching everyone up on the corners until you have to do the same again every corner.
At some point I will probably get frustrated with catching up in every corner, every corner, every corner.
If you want something fast (ish) and cheap get a Clio but if you want a bit more a tuned Civic Type R or Megane R26 I think would be a better choice. A tuned Megsne R26 is pretty quick, I can't keep up with a well driven one in the Clio.
I'm considering getting something a little faster such as a Megane, so maybe the Clio only entertains for so long...
I'm considering getting something a little faster such as a Megane, so maybe the Clio only entertains for so long...
The turbo cars are always going to be faster, problem is once you turn up the power they tend to be more unreliable.
Reliable slow cheap car vs unreliable fast expensive car - the classic problem!
Megane is probably a happy medium as long as the engine isn't tuned too much (under 275 bhp) - R26 has the slip diff. I did actually own a megane RS250 was which in another league to my Clio but was at a guess around 30% more expensive to run, cracking car.
I did look into Mini's on forums but concluded that they were too unreliable. However, I have come across quite a few fast mini's on my track day travels.
Reliable slow cheap car vs unreliable fast expensive car - the classic problem!
Megane is probably a happy medium as long as the engine isn't tuned too much (under 275 bhp) - R26 has the slip diff. I did actually own a megane RS250 was which in another league to my Clio but was at a guess around 30% more expensive to run, cracking car.
I did look into Mini's on forums but concluded that they were too unreliable. However, I have come across quite a few fast mini's on my track day travels.
Hey E-bmw,
I personally cannot see any of the options satisfying after RWD fun in a well balance chassis such as the E36, without going for much reduced weight (Caterham/Exocet, etc.) or upping the power in what you've got. The M52 can up the power substantially with Turbo/Schrager on standard internals, up to M3 killing credentials can be attained if boost is kept low yet be reliable.
The other options would me mid engine, Elise ect. but budget is way out there.
Another option but somewhat of a project is to consider getting hold of a GKD chassis and putting as many of your E36 parts into that, big project make no mistake, but with it comes in the region of 400~500KG of weight loss and performance nudging onto Caterhams.
Humour
I personally cannot see any of the options satisfying after RWD fun in a well balance chassis such as the E36, without going for much reduced weight (Caterham/Exocet, etc.) or upping the power in what you've got. The M52 can up the power substantially with Turbo/Schrager on standard internals, up to M3 killing credentials can be attained if boost is kept low yet be reliable.
The other options would me mid engine, Elise ect. but budget is way out there.
Another option but somewhat of a project is to consider getting hold of a GKD chassis and putting as many of your E36 parts into that, big project make no mistake, but with it comes in the region of 400~500KG of weight loss and performance nudging onto Caterhams.
Humour
Thanks for the replies, I am just thinking aloud at the moment, nothing is assured.
I love the e36 handling & reliability, the consumables can be costly, and I think I have just about "topped it out" without major surgery, so was thinking I may like a different challenge instead.
Still thinking & nothing may come of it yet.
I love the e36 handling & reliability, the consumables can be costly, and I think I have just about "topped it out" without major surgery, so was thinking I may like a different challenge instead.
Still thinking & nothing may come of it yet.
E-bmw said:
I love the e36 handling & reliability, the consumables can be costly, and I think I have just about "topped it out" without major surgery, so was thinking I may like a different challenge instead.
Still thinking & nothing may come of it yet.
Fair enough.Still thinking & nothing may come of it yet.
Being an E36 328 track toy owner myself, I would love to get to chat with you about E36's and particularly what you feel is "topped it out" level of development.
Agreed on consumables, but the E36 is a bit of a boat at 1200+, and even at 1100kg so goes with the territory. Sub 800Kg required imo if you want to do significant mileage on track and keep the consumables costs affordable.
Bright Halo said:
I had a nice stripped out Clio 182 with roll cage and race seats.
It was a quick track car but I moved on to a RX8. Again all stripped out etc. It's probably not as quick as the 182 round most circuits but the RWD suits me better and I find it considerably more fun!
All that matters on a track day really. Nobody's winning anything or getting any medals, and ultimately nobody cares what lap time you got or what you passed/got past you. It was a quick track car but I moved on to a RX8. Again all stripped out etc. It's probably not as quick as the 182 round most circuits but the RWD suits me better and I find it considerably more fun!
If you wanted pure lap time and a race winning fantasy trip, get a GTR. With the microwave optional extra...
Not my car, but a bit of footage of a Mini Cooper S on track at Llandow. This is a car with 130K on the clock, bought for around £1000 mark, and then another £1000 or so spent on modest performance and suspension upgrades.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxwBiTc-_24&fe...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxwBiTc-_24&fe...
I am starting to think I will do this late this year/early next, and I think I will be looking towards 206 180 now as they seem to be even cheaper, so the e36 will be up for sale in the near future.
I suspect I won't go as far as on the e36 so as to keep it more useable on the road.
Something like:
Coilovers/better pads/brake hoses/fluid/intake mods/exhaust/remap/cage(with removable front)/harnesses (with belts left for road use) and probably not much else other than remove the back seats, and maybe poly bush anything that goes.
A bit of cheap (relatively) fun, so for the moment, I will be keeping an eye out for one on track to blag a passenger ride.
I suspect I won't go as far as on the e36 so as to keep it more useable on the road.
Something like:
Coilovers/better pads/brake hoses/fluid/intake mods/exhaust/remap/cage(with removable front)/harnesses (with belts left for road use) and probably not much else other than remove the back seats, and maybe poly bush anything that goes.
A bit of cheap (relatively) fun, so for the moment, I will be keeping an eye out for one on track to blag a passenger ride.
if yr e36 is well sorted it might well be hard to beat for just 2k?
coming from a car that's balanced and works for you i don't think you'll find a replacement at that price. it'll need mods to get it right imo.
i didn't see anyone mention an mx!! shirley a lightweight 250hp 5 would be ideal? (although 2k is too little there too).
As Caterfields don't depreciate, could you finance the annual running of one of those? i know that's man maths.
coming from a car that's balanced and works for you i don't think you'll find a replacement at that price. it'll need mods to get it right imo.
i didn't see anyone mention an mx!! shirley a lightweight 250hp 5 would be ideal? (although 2k is too little there too).
As Caterfields don't depreciate, could you finance the annual running of one of those? i know that's man maths.
CABC said:
if yr e36 is well sorted it might well be hard to beat for just 2k?
coming from a car that's balanced and works for you i don't think you'll find a replacement at that price. it'll need mods to get it right imo.
I used to be indecisive, now I am not so sure!coming from a car that's balanced and works for you i don't think you'll find a replacement at that price. it'll need mods to get it right imo.
Every time I think I have made my mind up someone says what you have just said & I find myself agreeing.
I will just have to try one over the next few track days if I can & then make my mind up.
Either way, I need a clear out of some parts, so if anyone wants an e36/6 full cat/decat Tony Banks exhaust or Bilstein pro-street set up, strut brace, or even 318i 26mm front anti-roll bar or 17" wheels let me know.
£2k is a tough budget for a 'sorted' car, to be honest. You're somewhere between the two stools of a basic car for £1k and something more complete for £5k - meaning on a concession of some sort.
For me, I'd be (as I was when looking) focused on lighter cars. They typically have lower consumable wear rates, are generally more rewarding to drive hard and chuck around (speaking as someone who has owned cars from 800kg-1800kg), and go faster with less need to increase power.
With the best will in the world the E36 is a heavy car, until you get into the realms of fibreglass and perspex, at which point your budget is blown.
The trouble is that the above leaves you with two choices.
1. Lightweight hatchback (Clio 1*2 etc.). After a RWD car, this might feel like a glass of water at a cocktail bar. I still have loads of fun teasing a light hatch around corners, but it's a very personal thing.
2. MR2 mk3 or MX5. Probably the only two light and fun RWD cars in budget, but you're probably going to be trading down in terms of straight-line grunt.
If you can live with the tradeoff in straight-line pace for lightweight RWD cornering fun - get an MR2 or MX5.
If you can live with the tradeoff for FWD handling in a lightweight car - get a hot hatch.
IMHO, the 206 180 is a hugely underrated commodity that is prime for converting into a decent track toy - £1000 for a car and £1,000 on suspension, seats, brakes and tyres is quite a compelling prospect.
You should easily get that down to around 1000kg, which will make it plenty quick enough in a straight line and fun in the twisty bits.
For me, I'd be (as I was when looking) focused on lighter cars. They typically have lower consumable wear rates, are generally more rewarding to drive hard and chuck around (speaking as someone who has owned cars from 800kg-1800kg), and go faster with less need to increase power.
With the best will in the world the E36 is a heavy car, until you get into the realms of fibreglass and perspex, at which point your budget is blown.
The trouble is that the above leaves you with two choices.
1. Lightweight hatchback (Clio 1*2 etc.). After a RWD car, this might feel like a glass of water at a cocktail bar. I still have loads of fun teasing a light hatch around corners, but it's a very personal thing.
2. MR2 mk3 or MX5. Probably the only two light and fun RWD cars in budget, but you're probably going to be trading down in terms of straight-line grunt.
If you can live with the tradeoff in straight-line pace for lightweight RWD cornering fun - get an MR2 or MX5.
If you can live with the tradeoff for FWD handling in a lightweight car - get a hot hatch.
IMHO, the 206 180 is a hugely underrated commodity that is prime for converting into a decent track toy - £1000 for a car and £1,000 on suspension, seats, brakes and tyres is quite a compelling prospect.
You should easily get that down to around 1000kg, which will make it plenty quick enough in a straight line and fun in the twisty bits.
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