Track and occasional road car options - £5k

[fast_eddie]

How about a nice balanced front wheel drive car?

205, 306, clio, civic, etc

Lots of grip, oversteer when needed, light on tyres and fuel?


Plenty of fun to be had safely with a decent hot hatch on track!

[C70R]

Agreed.
I'm tracking a 206 GTi at the moment. For less than half the price of the equivalent Clio 1x2 I get 140bhp, ~900kg stripped and a lot of fun. One of the unsung heroes of the cheap hot hatch brigade, IMHO.

[Jonstar]

Good choice OP. I tracked mine once and kept up with a reasonably well driven boxster s without too much fuss. The combination of reliability, an understressed but powerful engine and a fundamentally capable chassis makes them an underrated track car.

However, you need to address the brakes and understeer issue immediately and ideally fit an LSD.

Ultimately though I just could gel not with the electric steering rack and felt it was just too refined so got rid.

[C70R]

Thanks for the reassurance, Jon. Any further input would be greatly appreciated.
The understeer was going to be solved with coilovers and adjustable camber plates, combined with a square 8x17 setup on 235s. What thoughts did you have about the brakes?

[Jonstar]

C70R said:

Thanks for the reassurance, Jon. Any further input would be greatly appreciated.
The understeer was going to be solved with coilovers and adjustable camber plates, combined with a square 8x17 setup on 235s. What thoughts did you have about the brakes?

I had uprated pads and discs so not a fair comparison, but everything I hear about the stock brakes suggest they NEED upgrading although their actual stopping power is very good. I hear the 330 discs make a good cheap upgrade though...

Edited by Jonstar on Monday 17th October 22:47

[Logicdr]

I bought an MG ZR160 last year to try out on track as I was thinking of doing the MG Trophy race series this year. I put the lower/stiffer springs and some road/track tyres on it and there were very few cars lapping faster. Takes about 15 mins and £20 to put a new set of Pagids/Mintex pads on the front so very cheap to run. Car seemed bulletproof and fine for driving to & from track, longest trip was from the South to Oulton Park and back in a day.
I liked it so much I did get the full race version (hence see track car for sale section for mine ).
Because of the race series you would also be able to pick up used race tyres & other bits very cheap, there's also a standard ECU upgrade for more power but you don't really need it.

[C70R]

Jonstar said:

C70R said:

Thanks for the reassurance, Jon. Any further input would be greatly appreciated.
The understeer was going to be solved with coilovers and adjustable camber plates, combined with a square 8x17 setup on 235s. What thoughts did you have about the brakes?

I had uprated pads and discs so not a fair comparison, but everything I hear about the stock brakes suggest they NEED upgrading although their actual stopping power is very good.i hear the 330 discs make a good cheap upgrade thpugh...

Cheers Jon. Did you feel like yours were struggling with one-off stopping power, or with repeated use and temperature issues?

[docter fox]

The brakes on my Z4 have reasonable stopping power but can get a bit hot when used enthusiastically, I was thinking of taking the 330 set up and adding some brake ducting to keep them cool rather than expensive aftermarket options.

[C70R]

docter fox said:

The brakes on my Z4 have reasonable stopping power but can get a bit hot when used enthusiastically, I was thinking of taking the 330 set up and adding some brake ducting to keep them cool rather than expensive aftermarket options.

Thanks for that. Odd that BMW should have avoided using the kit straight from the E46 330, particular as the two cars share so much by way of underpinnings.
I think I'll do fluid and friction surfaces, and have a look at ducting first off. If that doesn't cut the mustard, it's good to know that an upgrade is straightforward.

[Babw]

Just purchased an MR2 Spyder with a 2ZZ-GE engine last week to be a new track car. Compared to the Z4 it's a completely different experience; unsure if it's better though. It's my first mid engined car and so far I'd say the Z4 is more entertaining and the MR2 more capable. The Z4 was more involving but more of a battle. The MR2 (fully modified suspension with under braces, uprated ARB, polybushed and everything inbetween apart from coilovers) feels more inert with a more oversteer prone when off the throttle. The Z4 understeered if you just piled it in off the throttle but the back end was easily corrected with the throttle. You could be more of a hooligan if you wanted to but could drive it tidily as well. The MR2 feels almost too balanced to be able to throw it around and oversteer it. More power would help here.

I think I'll get used to the MR2 but definitely still miss the Z4 with modifications.

[C70R]

Babw said:

Just purchased an MR2 Spyder with a 2ZZ-GE engine last week to be a new track car. Compared to the Z4 it's a completely different experience; unsure if it's better though. It's my first mid engined car and so far I'd say the Z4 is more entertaining and the MR2 more capable. The Z4 was more involving but more of a battle. The MR2 (fully modified suspension with under braces, uprated ARB, polybushed and everything inbetween apart from coilovers) feels more inert with a more oversteer prone when off the throttle. The Z4 understeered if you just piled it in off the throttle but the back end was easily corrected with the throttle. You could be more of a hooligan if you wanted to but could drive it tidily as well. The MR2 feels almost too balanced to be able to throw it around and oversteer it. More power would help here.

I think I'll get used to the MR2 but definitely still miss the Z4 with modifications.

I didn't expect anyone to have experienced both, so that's a welcome surprise. What did you do to your Z4, and what were you most pleased with the impact of?

[CABC]

FR and RR or MR are different but life's all about about different experiences.
The Elise (i guess similar to an MR2?) is an absolute scalpel that's best driven just towards the edge. Here perfection is rewarded. Put the engine in the front as with mx5 or z4 and you can hoon a lot more, play, adjust etc. Any learning is better with the engine in the front i think.
understanding the differences and adjusting is all part of the fun!

[james_gt3rs]

CABC said:

FR and RR or MR are different but life's all about about different experiences.
The Elise (i guess similar to an MR2?) is an absolute scalpel that's best driven just towards the edge. Here perfection is rewarded. Put the engine in the front as with mx5 or z4 and you can hoon a lot more, play, adjust etc. Any learning is better with the engine in the front i think.
understanding the differences and adjusting is all part of the fun!

MR2 was my first track car (and RWD), I didn't think it was particularly tricky. Mid engined is great fun and constantly rewarding

[braddo]

C70R said:

Thanks for the reassurance, Jon. Any further input would be greatly appreciated.
The understeer was going to be solved with coilovers and adjustable camber plates, combined with a square 8x17 setup on 235s. What thoughts did you have about the brakes?

Coilovers, camber plates, geo, new wheels and tyres, brake pad/fluid upgrade - do you reckon you can get that done along with the car purchase for £5k?

[Babw]

C70R said:

I didn't expect anyone to have experienced both, so that's a welcome surprise. What did you do to your Z4, and what were you most pleased with the impact of?

I've outlined the changes on page 4 of this thread. The tyres/wheels and coilovers made the biggest impact both on road + track. I didn't have the LSD on for long and didn't take it on track with it fitted so couldn't really see a significant difference on road. With coilovers it's not really just about having them, initially after fitting them the car was way too nervous as the spring rates were wrong. I took them to AST in Gloucester who custom valved and new springs which transformed the handling.

No doubt the Z4 was more entertaining than the MR2 but I feel like I can take more liberties with the MR2 which in time could be fun. Need some coilovers on the MR2 and some bucket seats because the stock seats are rubbish.

[C70R]

braddo said:

C70R said:

Thanks for the reassurance, Jon. Any further input would be greatly appreciated.
The understeer was going to be solved with coilovers and adjustable camber plates, combined with a square 8x17 setup on 235s. What thoughts did you have about the brakes?

Coilovers, camber plates, geo, new wheels and tyres, brake pad/fluid upgrade - do you reckon you can get that done along with the car purchase for £5k?

To be honest, probably not - it's likely to push closer to £5.5k with all the modifications, as my budget for the base car is ~£4k (aiming for a Jan/Feb bargain).
Suspension is ~£650 (camber plates included), geo ~£100, tyres ~£300 (keeping standard 17" square setup), Brakes ~£100, seat ~£200.
On top of this I might change a few of the suspension bushes around, but nothing OTT. The beauty is that there's no temptation to go spending money by playing with the engine, as it's quick as standard (<6s to 60) and a waste of money to try and tune.

[C70R]

Babw said:

C70R said:

I didn't expect anyone to have experienced both, so that's a welcome surprise. What did you do to your Z4, and what were you most pleased with the impact of?

I've outlined the changes on page 4 of this thread. The tyres/wheels and coilovers made the biggest impact both on road + track. I didn't have the LSD on for long and didn't take it on track with it fitted so couldn't really see a significant difference on road. With coilovers it's not really just about having them, initially after fitting them the car was way too nervous as the spring rates were wrong. I took them to AST in Gloucester who custom valved and new springs which transformed the handling.

No doubt the Z4 was more entertaining than the MR2 but I feel like I can take more liberties with the MR2 which in time could be fun. Need some coilovers on the MR2 and some bucket seats because the stock seats are rubbish.

Apologies - I didn't put two and two together on that one!
I've seen the LSD mentioned a few times, with mixed feeling about the difference it made. How did you find it?

[iguana]

Wouldn't you go for the later z4 3.0? Fair bit more grunt.

I have pondered a later one as a less regular tracker, just got put off by the weight of them & if keeping as road use other than lighter seats not much to reduce that & not really knowing if it's a big job to LSD vs say e36s where it's a well known & trodden path.

[C70R]

iguana said:

Wouldn't you go for the later z4 3.0? Fair bit more grunt.

I have pondered a later one as a less regular tracker, just got put off by the weight of them & if keeping as road use other than lighter seats not much to reduce that & not really knowing if it's a big job to LSD vs say e36s where it's a well known & trodden path.

To be honest, I'd be spending an extra £3k for ~25bhp, and it's not like the standard 3.0 isn't quick enough to have fun (<6 to 60). Power:weight is about the same as an E30 M3 (albeit with better torque), making it "nippy" rather than outright quick.

On the subject of weight, you're absolutely right that it's no bantamweight - the MX5 and MR2 look anorexic by comparison! However, it weighs about the same as a Megane R26 or an S2000 (which definitely aren't "lardy"), and is ~100kg lighter than a 911 GT3 (which definitely isn't "bloated").

To be honest, all of this business worrying about power:weight can come later on. At this point, I just hope it will offer a safe, reliable, usable base for me to spend time improving myself.

[TroubledSoul]

Having owned various MR2s and test driven a 3.0si Z4 (and it was approved used so not a bargain basement car ) I just didn't find it entertaining.

The MR2 roadster, while slower, is actually far more rewarding to drive. The Z4 with its electric power steering etc. just wasn't that thrilling. And it was a real shame as I really wanted to love it.