Track and occasional road car options - £5k
Discussion
Frimley111R said:
Not going to add to the suggestions other than to say the other big issue is costs to run a car. My old Elise cost next to nothing in extra running costs on track as it was so light it just didn't wear stuff out much. By comparison bigger heavier cars can eat up tyres and brakes at an alarming rate. So, I'd recommend anything lightweight and there's loads of other suggestions on eBay.
Thanks for the input. As mentioned (a few times) I've already got a 'lightweight' dedicated track/sprint car, so this is much more of a hybrid. If it's only doing a few trackdays a year, I can't imagine any of those on the list costing thousands in consumables.You know what, even though I'd looked at the Z4 a while ago, I would have never considered taking one on track. Straight-line performance seems reasonable, if not setting the world on fire (14sec 1/4 mile puts it in line with the 2.7 Boxster, S2000 and 2ZZ MR2), and the video below suggests that they go pretty well relative to the facelift 986 (in the opinion of a couple of ex-racers).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIx96IC8wgY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIx96IC8wgY
Well, the more I thought about this, the further I turned myself around in circles! So, after a couple of testdrives, I've settled on a Z4. Yes, that's right - it wasn't even in my OP!
My thought process went as follows... (deep breath)
Performance
I'm a novice, and happy to admit that I'm at the bottom of the learning curve at the moment. Therefore, I probably won't get much benefit from a stripped-out, balls-to-the-wall, polybushed-to-death, 500bhp track car.
This ruled out the MR2 Turbo, Impreza and the E36.
Comfort
I think I had underestimated the importance of this, even though it's not a car that will be doing the supermarket run. The 3hr schlep back from RAF Woodbridge in my 206 on Saturday reminded me that living in the middle of London means long motorway drives to/from almost all venues. On the basis that I can't accommodate a trailer (nowhere to keep it), I need a track car in which I can turn on cruise/aircon/stereo and get home after a day's exertions without needing a sports massage.
As a result, from experience, this ruled out the MR2 and MX5 on a combination of fit (I'm tall) and refinement.
Reliability/Cost
As a result of the above, I came back to the trio of Boxster (2.7), Z4 (3.0) and S2000. All would seem to tick the Performance and Comfort balance. All would respond well to some gentle modification (suspension, brakes, seat, tyres etc.). All offer top-down motoring. All would be usable and enjoyable when I'm not on track.
I'm saving hard to buy another house at the moment, so budgets are a consideration. This ruled the S2000 out pretty quickly, based on what seemed to be available at my price point. A shame, but I didn't love it enough to spend the extra grand or so.
This left a straight shootout between the Boxster and the Z4 - a classic case of "Heart vs Head". Truthfully, no matter how hard I tried to convince myself, I just couldn't avoid the significantly higher risk of big bills that comes with using a Boxster hard and infrequently. A pity, because I love the way the 986 looks and drives, but probably the right decision on balance.
On reflection, what have I ended up with? A compromise, I suppose. The overriding thought was: if it can offer me 95% of the experience I'd get with a Boxster (I doubt I'm a good enough driver to spot the difference) with 90% of the risk, I'm onto a winner.
For me, the Z4 represents a more grown-up version of the Mk3 MX5 (a car I'm very fond of). It's a bit quicker in a straight line, it's a bit heavier, and it's a bit more refined (heated seats, stereo, 6spd etc.).
The oily bits are lifted straight from the E46/E39, so not only is it easy to DIY but spare parts are plentiful and reasonably-priced. There are active community forums here and in the US, so many common problems/modifications have been covered.
It's definitely not the last word in performance, but it's got a low centre of gravity, a power/weight ratio in the ballpark of things like the E30 M3 and Megane R26 (no slouches either!) and plenty of options to sharpen up the chassis.
Well done if you made it this far!
I've got a few bits to finish off on my E46 over the next couple of months, so I'm aiming to go hunting for a Z4 in Jan/Feb time in the hope of getting a winter bargain. I'll pop back and update this when I get the chance.
My thought process went as follows... (deep breath)
Performance
I'm a novice, and happy to admit that I'm at the bottom of the learning curve at the moment. Therefore, I probably won't get much benefit from a stripped-out, balls-to-the-wall, polybushed-to-death, 500bhp track car.
This ruled out the MR2 Turbo, Impreza and the E36.
Comfort
I think I had underestimated the importance of this, even though it's not a car that will be doing the supermarket run. The 3hr schlep back from RAF Woodbridge in my 206 on Saturday reminded me that living in the middle of London means long motorway drives to/from almost all venues. On the basis that I can't accommodate a trailer (nowhere to keep it), I need a track car in which I can turn on cruise/aircon/stereo and get home after a day's exertions without needing a sports massage.
As a result, from experience, this ruled out the MR2 and MX5 on a combination of fit (I'm tall) and refinement.
Reliability/Cost
As a result of the above, I came back to the trio of Boxster (2.7), Z4 (3.0) and S2000. All would seem to tick the Performance and Comfort balance. All would respond well to some gentle modification (suspension, brakes, seat, tyres etc.). All offer top-down motoring. All would be usable and enjoyable when I'm not on track.
I'm saving hard to buy another house at the moment, so budgets are a consideration. This ruled the S2000 out pretty quickly, based on what seemed to be available at my price point. A shame, but I didn't love it enough to spend the extra grand or so.
This left a straight shootout between the Boxster and the Z4 - a classic case of "Heart vs Head". Truthfully, no matter how hard I tried to convince myself, I just couldn't avoid the significantly higher risk of big bills that comes with using a Boxster hard and infrequently. A pity, because I love the way the 986 looks and drives, but probably the right decision on balance.
On reflection, what have I ended up with? A compromise, I suppose. The overriding thought was: if it can offer me 95% of the experience I'd get with a Boxster (I doubt I'm a good enough driver to spot the difference) with 90% of the risk, I'm onto a winner.
For me, the Z4 represents a more grown-up version of the Mk3 MX5 (a car I'm very fond of). It's a bit quicker in a straight line, it's a bit heavier, and it's a bit more refined (heated seats, stereo, 6spd etc.).
The oily bits are lifted straight from the E46/E39, so not only is it easy to DIY but spare parts are plentiful and reasonably-priced. There are active community forums here and in the US, so many common problems/modifications have been covered.
It's definitely not the last word in performance, but it's got a low centre of gravity, a power/weight ratio in the ballpark of things like the E30 M3 and Megane R26 (no slouches either!) and plenty of options to sharpen up the chassis.
Well done if you made it this far!
I've got a few bits to finish off on my E46 over the next couple of months, so I'm aiming to go hunting for a Z4 in Jan/Feb time in the hope of getting a winter bargain. I'll pop back and update this when I get the chance.
Edited by C70R on Wednesday 5th October 11:22
Fair points all round...
To get the MX5 I'd want, with enough power that it wasn't lethargic (as it is stock), with as many toys/features as the Z4, with upgrades to make it fun on track, would sadly push me quite a long way past my budget.
Additionally, I don't find the MX5 anywhere near as comfortable as the Z4, in terms of driving position or cabin layout in general.
To get the MX5 I'd want, with enough power that it wasn't lethargic (as it is stock), with as many toys/features as the Z4, with upgrades to make it fun on track, would sadly push me quite a long way past my budget.
Additionally, I don't find the MX5 anywhere near as comfortable as the Z4, in terms of driving position or cabin layout in general.
docter fox said:
An interesting choice and I'll be very interested to hear how it compares to the 206. I have a Clio 182 that I use on track and a 3.0 Z4 that I use on the road whilst wondering how it would cope on track...
Interested to hear your thoughts on the Z4. I've only driven them on 18s at modest road speed (I'd ideally like a square 17" setup to eliminate understeer), but found the chassis to be reasonably stiff yet compliant.How do they tend to respond when you're pushing on? What would be your first port of call to upgrade?
Edited by C70R on Thursday 6th October 11:54
towelie said:
I'd have thought a mk3 mx5 with super 200 conversion would be a better bet. Much lighter car, very capable and they are comfy.
To be honest, the Super 200 conversion leaves me a bit cold, even though I am a fan of the mk3. The headline 200bhp figure sounds great on paper, but 160lbft means that the engine will still feel pretty weedy. I've not spent loads of time in the mk3, but I definitely felt like the Z4 was in a different class in refinement terms (as you'd expect).Plus, spending £3.5-4k on a good MX5 and then lumping £2.5-3k on top (before even thinking about brakes, suspension etc.) would put it into the territory of some much more interesting metal. I think you'd need to really love MX5s to choose this over the alternatives.
I can definitely see some merit in the idea, particularly the lightweight aspect. The Peugeot is probably only as much fun because it's ~950kg, and chuckable. The limiting factor might end up being cost, to be honest - I'm preparing for an almighty stamp duty shafting next year, and need to put aside a lump to pay for it.
Perhaps the idea of exchanging 250kg for 30bhp isn't such a bad one... Aaaaaand we're back to square one. Where does one find a Super 200 to test?
Perhaps the idea of exchanging 250kg for 30bhp isn't such a bad one... Aaaaaand we're back to square one. Where does one find a Super 200 to test?
Edited by C70R on Friday 7th October 14:24
To be honest, although it ticks some boxes, I think I'm going to discount the MX5 on the basis of a few reasons:
ETA: For those, including owners, who were interested in how the Z4 is rated on-track. A couple of well-respected drivers seem to think it's pretty fun.
- Outright cost. This is a £5k project, not an £8k project (which the MX5 will be when finished). I'm up for a colossal stamp-duty shafting next year, so every little helps (keep MrsC off my back)!
- Competition. £8k pushes the modified MX5 into the territory of a good, standard S2000. I know which I'd rather have, to be honest. Additionally, if I wanted lightweight fun ~£5k gets me the 190bhp, <1000kg MR2.
ETA: For those, including owners, who were interested in how the Z4 is rated on-track. A couple of well-respected drivers seem to think it's pretty fun.
Edited by C70R on Monday 10th October 10:48
Frimley111R said:
f1ten said:
You are explaining the exact situation i am in.
I think the boxster and Elise were on my list...
The key advantage of an Elise is that it is very light on brakes and tyres and is comfy enough to relax in on the way home. Sure, its no Lexus but its perfectly good enough after a long track day to pop into 6th and cruise home. The RS Megane I have is great but boy it eats up brakes and tyres and a 'normal' type car is nowhere near the experience an Elise offers on track even if it isn't as fast as some. Also, Lotus residuals are solid or increasing generally.I think the boxster and Elise were on my list...
As it is, I'm trying to imitate the experience with more space and less budget. Compromises aplenty, it would seem.
f1ten said:
The Elise is a bit expensive for what it is at 20 years old for mark 1!
Mx5 too small and I've had one !
Curious to know what brakes and costs are for a cheapish boxster
To be honest, I ruled out the Boxster (in favour of the Z4) principally on the cost and likelihood of major mechanical work. A clutch change can cost more than three times as much on the Porsche, and the concern about IMS/RMS/sleeves (no matter how unlikely) isn't something I want hanging over me when I'm using a car hard and infrequently.Mx5 too small and I've had one !
Curious to know what brakes and costs are for a cheapish boxster
Spares in general are more easily available and less costly for the Z4, as it's full of bits that are common to other BMWs. However, I didn't find a significant difference in the price of consumables (brakes etc.) and servicing, so don't let that put you off.
Jonstar said:
C70R said:
Thanks for the reassurance, Jon. Any further input would be greatly appreciated.
The understeer was going to be solved with coilovers and adjustable camber plates, combined with a square 8x17 setup on 235s. What thoughts did you have about the brakes?
I had uprated pads and discs so not a fair comparison, but everything I hear about the stock brakes suggest they NEED upgrading although their actual stopping power is very good.i hear the 330 discs make a good cheap upgrade thpugh...The understeer was going to be solved with coilovers and adjustable camber plates, combined with a square 8x17 setup on 235s. What thoughts did you have about the brakes?
docter fox said:
The brakes on my Z4 have reasonable stopping power but can get a bit hot when used enthusiastically, I was thinking of taking the 330 set up and adding some brake ducting to keep them cool rather than expensive aftermarket options.
Thanks for that. Odd that BMW should have avoided using the kit straight from the E46 330, particular as the two cars share so much by way of underpinnings.I think I'll do fluid and friction surfaces, and have a look at ducting first off. If that doesn't cut the mustard, it's good to know that an upgrade is straightforward.
Babw said:
Just purchased an MR2 Spyder with a 2ZZ-GE engine last week to be a new track car. Compared to the Z4 it's a completely different experience; unsure if it's better though. It's my first mid engined car and so far I'd say the Z4 is more entertaining and the MR2 more capable. The Z4 was more involving but more of a battle. The MR2 (fully modified suspension with under braces, uprated ARB, polybushed and everything inbetween apart from coilovers) feels more inert with a more oversteer prone when off the throttle. The Z4 understeered if you just piled it in off the throttle but the back end was easily corrected with the throttle. You could be more of a hooligan if you wanted to but could drive it tidily as well. The MR2 feels almost too balanced to be able to throw it around and oversteer it. More power would help here.
I think I'll get used to the MR2 but definitely still miss the Z4 with modifications.
I didn't expect anyone to have experienced both, so that's a welcome surprise. What did you do to your Z4, and what were you most pleased with the impact of?I think I'll get used to the MR2 but definitely still miss the Z4 with modifications.
braddo said:
C70R said:
Thanks for the reassurance, Jon. Any further input would be greatly appreciated.
The understeer was going to be solved with coilovers and adjustable camber plates, combined with a square 8x17 setup on 235s. What thoughts did you have about the brakes?
Coilovers, camber plates, geo, new wheels and tyres, brake pad/fluid upgrade - do you reckon you can get that done along with the car purchase for £5k?The understeer was going to be solved with coilovers and adjustable camber plates, combined with a square 8x17 setup on 235s. What thoughts did you have about the brakes?
Suspension is ~£650 (camber plates included), geo ~£100, tyres ~£300 (keeping standard 17" square setup), Brakes ~£100, seat ~£200.
On top of this I might change a few of the suspension bushes around, but nothing OTT. The beauty is that there's no temptation to go spending money by playing with the engine, as it's quick as standard (<6s to 60) and a waste of money to try and tune.
Babw said:
C70R said:
I didn't expect anyone to have experienced both, so that's a welcome surprise. What did you do to your Z4, and what were you most pleased with the impact of?
I've outlined the changes on page 4 of this thread. The tyres/wheels and coilovers made the biggest impact both on road + track. I didn't have the LSD on for long and didn't take it on track with it fitted so couldn't really see a significant difference on road. With coilovers it's not really just about having them, initially after fitting them the car was way too nervous as the spring rates were wrong. I took them to AST in Gloucester who custom valved and new springs which transformed the handling.No doubt the Z4 was more entertaining than the MR2 but I feel like I can take more liberties with the MR2 which in time could be fun. Need some coilovers on the MR2 and some bucket seats because the stock seats are rubbish.
I've seen the LSD mentioned a few times, with mixed feeling about the difference it made. How did you find it?
iguana said:
Wouldn't you go for the later z4 3.0? Fair bit more grunt.
I have pondered a later one as a less regular tracker, just got put off by the weight of them & if keeping as road use other than lighter seats not much to reduce that & not really knowing if it's a big job to LSD vs say e36s where it's a well known & trodden path.
To be honest, I'd be spending an extra £3k for ~25bhp, and it's not like the standard 3.0 isn't quick enough to have fun (<6 to 60). Power:weight is about the same as an E30 M3 (albeit with better torque), making it "nippy" rather than outright quick.I have pondered a later one as a less regular tracker, just got put off by the weight of them & if keeping as road use other than lighter seats not much to reduce that & not really knowing if it's a big job to LSD vs say e36s where it's a well known & trodden path.
On the subject of weight, you're absolutely right that it's no bantamweight - the MX5 and MR2 look anorexic by comparison! However, it weighs about the same as a Megane R26 or an S2000 (which definitely aren't "lardy"), and is ~100kg lighter than a 911 GT3 (which definitely isn't "bloated").
To be honest, all of this business worrying about power:weight can come later on. At this point, I just hope it will offer a safe, reliable, usable base for me to spend time improving myself.
TroubledSoul said:
Having owned various MR2s and test driven a 3.0si Z4 (and it was approved used so not a bargain basement car 
) I just didn't find it entertaining.
The MR2 roadster, while slower, is actually far more rewarding to drive. The Z4 with its electric power steering etc. just wasn't that thrilling. And it was a real shame as I really wanted to love it.
Horses for courses, I suppose. I've driven the MR2 and MX5, and they are certainly much sharper tools out of the box. However, I'm not looking for the ultimate track scalpel, and the idea of a 3hr motorway schlep back from the track in a MR2/MX5 after a long day of driving fills me with dread. As with everything, it's a choice of compromise.) I just didn't find it entertaining. The MR2 roadster, while slower, is actually far more rewarding to drive. The Z4 with its electric power steering etc. just wasn't that thrilling. And it was a real shame as I really wanted to love it.
So... this didn't happen. Having the spent the past few months changing jobs, travelling and rebuilding a property, car buying took a back seat.
Having said all of that, it has been ticking away in the back of my mind throughout, and I've had one eye on a few Autotrader saved searches. Budget remains roughly the same - but I think I've softened a little on my idea of 'what car'. As I've ended up doing more road miles of late (probably due to the flat refurb), and wonder whether I might get more enjoyment out of something a bit more civilised (and a thread raving about FWD the other day opened my eyes to how quick it's possible to hustle a hot hatch - so I'll drive a couple with an open mind.
My BMW is getting MOT'd and will be up for sale shortly (98k, FSH, fresh MOT!), so I've narrowed down to the following bases for about £4k (plus £1.5k on brakes/suspension/seat/tyres):
The RX8 is probably the sweet-spot for me, but I'm having my head turned a little by the potential straightline pace of the two FWD cars and the lightness/comfort balance of the MX5.
Having said all of that, it has been ticking away in the back of my mind throughout, and I've had one eye on a few Autotrader saved searches. Budget remains roughly the same - but I think I've softened a little on my idea of 'what car'. As I've ended up doing more road miles of late (probably due to the flat refurb), and wonder whether I might get more enjoyment out of something a bit more civilised (and a thread raving about FWD the other day opened my eyes to how quick it's possible to hustle a hot hatch - so I'll drive a couple with an open mind.
My BMW is getting MOT'd and will be up for sale shortly (98k, FSH, fresh MOT!), so I've narrowed down to the following bases for about £4k (plus £1.5k on brakes/suspension/seat/tyres):
- Megane 225 (plus remap and shortshift)
- R56 Cooper S (plus remap)
- RX8 (with rebuild)
- MX5 NC 2.0
The RX8 is probably the sweet-spot for me, but I'm having my head turned a little by the potential straightline pace of the two FWD cars and the lightness/comfort balance of the MX5.
Edited by C70R on Wednesday 15th February 16:00
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