Track and occasional road car options - £5k

Track and occasional road car options - £5k

Author
Discussion

C70R

Original Poster:

17,596 posts

103 months

Thursday 6th October 2016
quotequote all
Fair points all round...
To get the MX5 I'd want, with enough power that it wasn't lethargic (as it is stock), with as many toys/features as the Z4, with upgrades to make it fun on track, would sadly push me quite a long way past my budget.
Additionally, I don't find the MX5 anywhere near as comfortable as the Z4, in terms of driving position or cabin layout in general.

docter fox

593 posts

234 months

Thursday 6th October 2016
quotequote all
An interesting choice and I'll be very interested to hear how it compares to the 206. I have a Clio 182 that I use on track and a 3.0 Z4 that I use on the road whilst wondering how it would cope on track...

C70R

Original Poster:

17,596 posts

103 months

Thursday 6th October 2016
quotequote all
docter fox said:
An interesting choice and I'll be very interested to hear how it compares to the 206. I have a Clio 182 that I use on track and a 3.0 Z4 that I use on the road whilst wondering how it would cope on track...
Interested to hear your thoughts on the Z4. I've only driven them on 18s at modest road speed (I'd ideally like a square 17" setup to eliminate understeer), but found the chassis to be reasonably stiff yet compliant.
How do they tend to respond when you're pushing on? What would be your first port of call to upgrade?

Edited by C70R on Thursday 6th October 11:54

towelie

269 posts

169 months

Friday 7th October 2016
quotequote all
Topic of your thread should have been very occasional track car and mainly for posing around the streets of Dulwich.

I jest. I'm sure it'll fit your needs nicely although on auto trader all the z4s are raggedy high mileage cars, I'd have thought a mk3 mx5 with super 200 conversion would be a better bet. Much lighter car, very capable and they are comfy. Although I say this as the owner of two mk1s among other cars.

I'm guessing you're going for an auto? I suppose it would make sense in London.

C70R

Original Poster:

17,596 posts

103 months

Friday 7th October 2016
quotequote all
towelie said:
I'd have thought a mk3 mx5 with super 200 conversion would be a better bet. Much lighter car, very capable and they are comfy.
To be honest, the Super 200 conversion leaves me a bit cold, even though I am a fan of the mk3. The headline 200bhp figure sounds great on paper, but 160lbft means that the engine will still feel pretty weedy. I've not spent loads of time in the mk3, but I definitely felt like the Z4 was in a different class in refinement terms (as you'd expect).

Plus, spending £3.5-4k on a good MX5 and then lumping £2.5-3k on top (before even thinking about brakes, suspension etc.) would put it into the territory of some much more interesting metal. I think you'd need to really love MX5s to choose this over the alternatives.

braddo

10,399 posts

187 months

Friday 7th October 2016
quotequote all
I think the Super 200 in a used NC MX5 is pretty tempting. Not sure there's a lot of competition around £8k for 180hp/ton and 1100kg (in a modern useable package at least).

Even in a heavy car like my GT3, I was surprised how much better the car felt on track without a passenger (probably 85 kg on top of the car+driver 1500kg-guess). So, I think the 100-200kg weight advantage that the MX5 has over stuff like the Z4, S2000 and Boxster is a major factor when thinking of something for track fun.

And that's before looking at running costs and consumables.

In any case, keep the thread updated. smile




C70R

Original Poster:

17,596 posts

103 months

Friday 7th October 2016
quotequote all
I can definitely see some merit in the idea, particularly the lightweight aspect. The Peugeot is probably only as much fun because it's ~950kg, and chuckable. The limiting factor might end up being cost, to be honest - I'm preparing for an almighty stamp duty shafting next year, and need to put aside a lump to pay for it.

Perhaps the idea of exchanging 250kg for 30bhp isn't such a bad one... Aaaaaand we're back to square one. Where does one find a Super 200 to test?

Edited by C70R on Friday 7th October 14:24

NJH

3,021 posts

208 months

Friday 7th October 2016
quotequote all
braddo said:
I think the Super 200 in a used NC MX5 is pretty tempting. Not sure there's a lot of competition around £8k for 180hp/ton and 1100kg (in a modern useable package at least).
More than that its a very stiff strong car underneath, anyone looking at these things needs to get underneath and have a look at the engineering Mazda put into those cars. I reckon a mk3 with Supercup GAZ coilovers, track tyres and pads + the super 200 conversion wouldn't be much behind my 944 S2 race car (221 Bhp, 1125 kg). It had me thinking about it enough to consider selling the race car and going that route with the NC MX5 as it could do both track days and road use duties. As it is I have really bad hay fever so have pretty much ruled out convertibles for those who like soft tops it has to be consideration surely at these prices for the base car.

Its a funny thing the NC MX5, I have slagged them off on PH for having a cocked up alignment/suspension/wheels package from the factory but it was always clear to me in the 3 years we had ours that there is one hell of a good base car in there to build from.

Wipe the floor with a Z4 on track, no doubt about it.

f1ten

2,161 posts

152 months

Friday 7th October 2016
quotequote all
C70R said:
Well, the more I thought about this, the further I turned myself around in circles! So, after a couple of testdrives, I've settled on a Z4. Yes, that's right - it wasn't even in my OP!

My thought process went as follows... (deep breath)
Performance
I'm a novice, and happy to admit that I'm at the bottom of the learning curve at the moment. Therefore, I probably won't get much benefit from a stripped-out, balls-to-the-wall, polybushed-to-death, 500bhp track car.
This ruled out the MR2 Turbo, Impreza and the E36.

Comfort
I think I had underestimated the importance of this, even though it's not a car that will be doing the supermarket run. The 3hr schlep back from RAF Woodbridge in my 206 on Saturday reminded me that living in the middle of London means long motorway drives to/from almost all venues. On the basis that I can't accommodate a trailer (nowhere to keep it), I need a track car in which I can turn on cruise/aircon/stereo and get home after a day's exertions without needing a sports massage.
As a result, from experience, this ruled out the MR2 and MX5 on a combination of fit (I'm tall) and refinement.

Reliability/Cost
As a result of the above, I came back to the trio of Boxster (2.7), Z4 (3.0) and S2000. All would seem to tick the Performance and Comfort balance. All would respond well to some gentle modification (suspension, brakes, seat, tyres etc.). All offer top-down motoring. All would be usable and enjoyable when I'm not on track.
I'm saving hard to buy another house at the moment, so budgets are a consideration. This ruled the S2000 out pretty quickly, based on what seemed to be available at my price point. A shame, but I didn't love it enough to spend the extra grand or so.
This left a straight shootout between the Boxster and the Z4 - a classic case of "Heart vs Head". Truthfully, no matter how hard I tried to convince myself, I just couldn't avoid the significantly higher risk of big bills that comes with using a Boxster hard and infrequently. A pity, because I love the way the 986 looks and drives, but probably the right decision on balance.

On reflection, what have I ended up with? A compromise, I suppose. The overriding thought was: if it can offer me 95% of the experience I'd get with a Boxster (I doubt I'm a good enough driver to spot the difference) with 90% of the risk, I'm onto a winner.
For me, the Z4 represents a more grown-up version of the Mk3 MX5 (a car I'm very fond of). It's a bit quicker in a straight line, it's a bit heavier, and it's a bit more refined (heated seats, stereo, 6spd etc.).
The oily bits are lifted straight from the E46/E39, so not only is it easy to DIY but spare parts are plentiful and reasonably-priced. There are active community forums here and in the US, so many common problems/modifications have been covered.
It's definitely not the last word in performance, but it's got a low centre of gravity, a power/weight ratio in the ballpark of things like the E30 M3 and Megane R26 (no slouches either!) and plenty of options to sharpen up the chassis.


Well done if you made it this far!
I've got a few bits to finish off on my E46 over the next couple of months, so I'm aiming to go hunting for a Z4 in Jan/Feb time in the hope of getting a winter bargain. I'll pop back and update this when I get the chance.

Edited by C70R on Wednesday 5th October 11:22
You are explaining the exact situation i am in.
I think the boxster and Elise were on my list as an alternative to an e46 330. M3s are too expensive etc 330 probably to heavy unless you can find one where someone has done the cage or brakes and stripped out already

I want something I can drive and if it blows up in not pissed off which means ideally lower end. I've got a fast car for the road and happy it stYs for that use only.

I too am in london and hours from A track which means it has to be 2 seats and road legal and useable in semi comfort to get to the track.
I may now consider the z4 now!

CABC

5,536 posts

100 months

Saturday 8th October 2016
quotequote all
not bowled over by the z4 chassis as std, but i guess a well chosen suspension upgrade and geo could improve things a lot. The joy of track is being able to lean on the chassis and really feel what's going on.
Will be interesting to follow, you see very few z4s on track but i can see the appeal for the op.
i wonder whether a Boxster 2.7 is such a maintenance risk? it clearly has an excellent chassis.

docter fox

593 posts

234 months

Sunday 9th October 2016
quotequote all
C70R said:
Interested to hear your thoughts on the Z4. I've only driven them on 18s at modest road speed (I'd ideally like a square 17" setup to eliminate understeer), but found the chassis to be reasonably stiff yet compliant.
How do they tend to respond when you're pushing on? What would be your first port of call to upgrade?

Edited by C70R on Thursday 6th October 11:54
My Z4 is on 17's and not the run flats that are fitted as standard. It was on Bridgestone Potenzas all round and although stiff, it's a joy to drive on a smooth flowing section of road and you can feel the rear end squatting down as you get onto the power coming out of a corner. I changed the rears to uniroyal Rainsports and it feels terrible in comparison, I'm trying to burn down the tread and it is improving but it's just shown they're very sensitive to tyre choice.

In terms of upgrades, I was about to change the 280mm brakes to the e46 330i 300mm brakes before I bought the Clio for the track. The suspension can be a bit crashy over B road bumps but I'm not sure if suspension upgrades would resolve that or potentially make it worse, I'd want to see how it performed on track with the brakes before changing anything else.

The main reason for getting the Clio was the consumables as people have said, not just the cost of them but the rate at which it goes through them. I'm booked on track with it for the Silverstone Sunday Service but now I'm thinking I should be trying the Z4 on track instead!

Babw

886 posts

145 months

Sunday 9th October 2016
quotequote all
OP I've got a set of genuine Volk TE37's that are forged and very light weight in a proper BMW fitment that clear any BBK + no rubbing still in my garage from my old E85 Z4.

R888's on these wheels made the front end feel so much pointier due to the width of the rim and stiffness of the sidewalls.

C70R

Original Poster:

17,596 posts

103 months

Monday 10th October 2016
quotequote all
To be honest, although it ticks some boxes, I think I'm going to discount the MX5 on the basis of a few reasons:
  • Outright cost. This is a £5k project, not an £8k project (which the MX5 will be when finished). I'm up for a colossal stamp-duty shafting next year, so every little helps (keep MrsC off my back)!
  • Competition. £8k pushes the modified MX5 into the territory of a good, standard S2000. I know which I'd rather have, to be honest. Additionally, if I wanted lightweight fun ~£5k gets me the 190bhp, <1000kg MR2.
That was a close one.

ETA: For those, including owners, who were interested in how the Z4 is rated on-track. A couple of well-respected drivers seem to think it's pretty fun.

Edited by C70R on Monday 10th October 10:48

Google [bot]

6,682 posts

180 months

Monday 10th October 2016
quotequote all
C70R said:
To be honest, although it ticks some boxes, I think I'm going to discount the MX5 on the basis of a few reasons:
  • Outright cost. This is a £5k project, not an £8k project (which the MX5 will be when finished). I'm up for a colossal stamp-duty shafting next year, so every little helps (keep MrsC off my back)!
  • Competition. £8k pushes the modified MX5 into the territory of a good, standard S2000. I know which I'd rather have, to be honest. Additionally, if I wanted lightweight fun ~£5k gets me the 190bhp, <1000kg MR2.
That was a close one.
Late to this thread and never did any track work, but I had an NA 1.8 Jackson supercharged MX5. It wasn't that quick, sounded great but was disappointing. I had many issues but they were mainly related to its daily driver status. An S2000 would be a far, far better car IMHO.

Frimley111R

15,538 posts

233 months

Monday 10th October 2016
quotequote all
f1ten said:
You are explaining the exact situation i am in.
I think the boxster and Elise were on my list...
The key advantage of an Elise is that it is very light on brakes and tyres and is comfy enough to relax in on the way home. Sure, its no Lexus but its perfectly good enough after a long track day to pop into 6th and cruise home. The RS Megane I have is great but boy it eats up brakes and tyres and a 'normal' type car is nowhere near the experience an Elise offers on track even if it isn't as fast as some. Also, Lotus residuals are solid or increasing generally.

C70R

Original Poster:

17,596 posts

103 months

Monday 10th October 2016
quotequote all
Frimley111R said:
f1ten said:
You are explaining the exact situation i am in.
I think the boxster and Elise were on my list...
The key advantage of an Elise is that it is very light on brakes and tyres and is comfy enough to relax in on the way home. Sure, its no Lexus but its perfectly good enough after a long track day to pop into 6th and cruise home. The RS Megane I have is great but boy it eats up brakes and tyres and a 'normal' type car is nowhere near the experience an Elise offers on track even if it isn't as fast as some. Also, Lotus residuals are solid or increasing generally.
Absolutely. If my budget was doubled, and I wasn't so big, the Elise would be my absolute first port of call.
As it is, I'm trying to imitate the experience with more space and less budget. Compromises aplenty, it would seem.

f1ten

2,161 posts

152 months

Monday 10th October 2016
quotequote all
The Elise is a bit expensive for what it is at 20 years old for mark 1!
Mx5 too small and I've had one !
Curious to know what brakes and costs are for a cheapish boxster

C70R

Original Poster:

17,596 posts

103 months

Tuesday 11th October 2016
quotequote all
f1ten said:
The Elise is a bit expensive for what it is at 20 years old for mark 1!
Mx5 too small and I've had one !
Curious to know what brakes and costs are for a cheapish boxster
To be honest, I ruled out the Boxster (in favour of the Z4) principally on the cost and likelihood of major mechanical work. A clutch change can cost more than three times as much on the Porsche, and the concern about IMS/RMS/sleeves (no matter how unlikely) isn't something I want hanging over me when I'm using a car hard and infrequently.

Spares in general are more easily available and less costly for the Z4, as it's full of bits that are common to other BMWs. However, I didn't find a significant difference in the price of consumables (brakes etc.) and servicing, so don't let that put you off.

TroubledSoul

4,589 posts

193 months

Tuesday 11th October 2016
quotequote all
The 2ZZ conversion on the mk3 MR2 isn't all that hard but when I was gearing up to do one myself I found that a lot of the parts need to be bought from the USA and the shipping rates that Monkey Wrench Racing charge are ridiculous. That really pissed me off when I was looking.

Easy cars to work on though. Just about every panel is replaceable and the handling out of the box is unreal.

I swapped the engine on one single-handedly after reading a DIY online.

The MR2 Turbo is a fantastic car too, and one I personally have a lot of love for. Not quite as easy to work on as the mk3 and a bit long in the tooth now but a lot of fun. The chassis unfortunately cannot corner like a mk3 can. They are also mostly rotting from the inside out along the sills. Even the ones that look good from the outside. This is because the sound deadening consists of a large sponge in the panel on either side. It just retains water which in turn runs down into the sill frown

It's a design fault, essentially. But a nice one is a really brilliant car IMO.

f1ten

2,161 posts

152 months

Tuesday 11th October 2016
quotequote all
I assume 4wd Impreza turbo is unrewarding on track ?
It's annoying how limited the rwd choice is actually
A 6 cylinder BMW would be nice but as all have said above it's heavy which means expensive to strip and sort