Track day novice what I've learnt so far...
Discussion
QBee said:
there will be plenty of time in the seven hours of the track day to get some quality time on track. After the initial urgent rush to get on track it settles down
This is excellent advice, particularly for the novice. We sat out the initial rush on our maiden outing at Bedford a few weeks ago, and watched numerous spins/yellow flags from over-exuberance.andygtt said:
The problem with driving a fast car is you DO become a target, plus you catch lots of cars so end up in traffic a lot.... many won't move over or try to race you even though they are a lot slower.
As a novice Im nervous in traffic and it actually becomes a hindrance being in a fast car as you end up catching traffic constantly rather than just going round at your own pace.
My advice for those Novices in faster cars, pick a larger track with a track day company that keeps numbers low (means cost is higher tho).
IME, the first part is utter nonsense; I don't think I've ever seen a slow car NOT let a fast car through (there's little they can do if you can out-drag them on the straights), whereas I've seen a LOT of 'fast' cars with slow/novice drivers blocking everyone through the corner then p*ssing off down the straight, only to become a roadblock at the next corner where courtesy and common sense dictates those behind cannot throw it up the inside on the brakes..As a novice Im nervous in traffic and it actually becomes a hindrance being in a fast car as you end up catching traffic constantly rather than just going round at your own pace.
My advice for those Novices in faster cars, pick a larger track with a track day company that keeps numbers low (means cost is higher tho).
If someone in a 'slow' car is 'racing' you, perhaps let them go, or try to follow them for a few corners, you might learn something. Failing that, back off or take a trip through the pits to find a bit more space.
Otherwise very much sense on this thread - QBee nails it, as does the OP; stock brakes depend a bit on the car, some marques have notably weak brakes, but many massively over-use them.
IMHO, I would advise sensibly evaluating what the worst-case is before you go; If you cannot afford to throw your car away without materially screwing your life, either don't do it, OR purchase (excessively expensive) trackday cover. The chances are (very) small that you will have an issue, but if you do..
And another lesson I learnt recently, whilst driving your powerful RWD car out of slow bumpy corner after turning off all the safety aids, do not have a conversation with your passenger about brakes, CONCENTRATE! Else you'll be facing a strange direction on the grass, or in a barrier.
upsidedownmark said:
andygtt said:
The problem with driving a fast car is you DO become a target, plus you catch lots of cars so end up in traffic a lot.... many won't move over or try to race you even though they are a lot slower.
As a novice Im nervous in traffic and it actually becomes a hindrance being in a fast car as you end up catching traffic constantly rather than just going round at your own pace.
My advice for those Novices in faster cars, pick a larger track with a track day company that keeps numbers low (means cost is higher tho).
IME, the first part is utter nonsense; I don't think I've ever seen a slow car NOT let a fast car through (there's little they can do if you can out-drag them on the straights), whereas I've seen a LOT of 'fast' cars with slow/novice drivers blocking everyone through the corner then p*ssing off down the straight, only to become a roadblock at the next corner where courtesy and common sense dictates those behind cannot throw it up the inside on the brakes..As a novice Im nervous in traffic and it actually becomes a hindrance being in a fast car as you end up catching traffic constantly rather than just going round at your own pace.
My advice for those Novices in faster cars, pick a larger track with a track day company that keeps numbers low (means cost is higher tho).
If someone in a 'slow' car is 'racing' you, perhaps let them go, or try to follow them for a few corners, you might learn something. Failing that, back off or take a trip through the pits to find a bit more space.
most common problem on track is poorly driven fast cars as it's hard to overtake on the straights.
of course fast cars are 'targets'. get real and drive better. if you only drive half decently it cannot be problem.
CABC said:
exactly.
most common problem on track is poorly driven fast cars as it's hard to overtake on the straights.
of course fast cars are 'targets'. get real and drive better. if you only drive half decently it cannot be problem.
Yes, that reminds me of an annoying piece of driving I experienced on a track day last year:most common problem on track is poorly driven fast cars as it's hard to overtake on the straights.
of course fast cars are 'targets'. get real and drive better. if you only drive half decently it cannot be problem.
A geezer, let's call him "Richard", as that suits him, came powering out of the pits at Snetterton in his brand new company BMW M4, and as was his God-given right on all motorways and dual carriageways, barged straight across the track without looking behind him and onto the racing line (the outside lane in his mind) for the first corner.
Two of us, approaching the corner at 130 mph, had brown trouser moments. The guy in front of me was forced to overtake on the wrong side as he was already committed to the corner, I had to brake very hard and tuck in behind errr Richard.
He was on road tyres, so crept through all the corners, where I wasn't allowed to overtake, with me inches from his rear bumper, then onto the straight and he floored the throttle. Of course he powered away from me, just enough so that I couldn't get past him, only to have to slow to what felt like walking pace for the next corner, with me right up his chuff again. Never looked in his mirrors, and even if he had done he wouldn't have allowed me past, as clearly he was quicker than me.
Fortunately Richard and his friends are rare, so shouldn't spoil your enjoyment of the track, and as said before, just back off a bit and carry on having fun.
andygtt said:
The problem with driving a fast car is you DO become a target, plus you catch lots of cars so end up in traffic a lot.... many won't move over or try to race you even though they are a lot slower.
That's more a problem for a flash car than a fast car.Any car driven quickly and properly round the circuit will be generally given respect and space by the other cars whether it is a sheddy hatch back, a seven or a supercar.
Some drivers will spot a Lambo-rrari-claren and want to get past it and if they've caught it up then that's fair enough, hard to see how the supercar would consistently have a problem getting past on the straights if it's caught something slower.........
upsidedownmark said:
IME, the first part is utter nonsense; I don't think I've ever seen a slow car NOT let a fast car through (there's little they can do if you can out-drag them on the straights), whereas I've seen a LOT of 'fast' cars with slow/novice drivers blocking everyone through the corner then p*ssing off down the straight, only to become a roadblock at the next corner where courtesy and common sense dictates those behind cannot throw it up the inside on the brakes..
If someone in a 'slow' car is 'racing' you, perhaps let them go, or try to follow them for a few corners, you might learn something. Failing that, back off or take a trip through the pits to find a bit more space.
.
Well my limited experiences on track I have experienced this so its not nonsense, catch a slower car up and then sit behind them for ages while they don't more over.... And if they don't move over you can't exactly overtake unless you Also break the rules and go down the inside etc out dragging them without their consent is dangerous especially for a novice.If someone in a 'slow' car is 'racing' you, perhaps let them go, or try to follow them for a few corners, you might learn something. Failing that, back off or take a trip through the pits to find a bit more space.
.
Pretty hard to slow down, as you then catch them again... As a novice (which I still consider myself as only done around6 days) I tend to immediately move to side and slow down if I'm caught for exactly the reason you describe and I have seen exactly what you describe so I'm not saying that doesn't happen either.
Dont for one moment think I'm trying to put people off, I love the track days I have done and intend to do loads more. There are however plenty of people who don't follow the rules, I've seen loads of utube videos showing people breaking them.. Personally I think there should be a novice sticker so the experienced people know to give them more space etc...
Edited by andygtt on Saturday 1st October 17:03
Steve H said:
hard to see how the supercar would consistently have a problem getting past on the straights if it's caught something slower.........
Except the rule is no overtaking without consent and on the left (usually)... if they don't move over to the right you simply can't overtake safely no matter how fast your car is!upsidedownmark said:
IMHO, I would advise sensibly evaluating what the worst-case is before you go; If you cannot afford to throw your car away without materially screwing your life, either don't do it, OR purchase (excessively expensive) trackday cover. The chances are (very) small that you will have an issue, but if you do..
The best bit of advice on the thread actually... my road insurance covers me for up to 5 certain organised track days for free as long as I give notice.Im actually coming round to the idea that a cheap track day toy is actually the way forward.
andygtt said:
Except the rule is no overtaking without consent and on the left (usually)... if they don't move over to the right you simply can't overtake safely no matter how fast your car is!
you realise that a clear move to the right is considered consent? Overtakers might sometimes seem 'assertive', in reality good drivers observe the car and driver in front quite well. Issues are rare and cock drivers easy to spot and avoid. Caveat emptor etc. Look around for potential trouble and don't risk your P&J on track.
you could go to owners clubs days, but even then you'll find incompetence and ego, maybe wrapped in a warm feeling of exclusivity!
andygtt said:
Steve H said:
hard to see how the supercar would consistently have a problem getting past on the straights if it's caught something slower.........
Except the rule is no overtaking without consent and on the left (usually)... if they don't move over to the right you simply can't overtake safely no matter how fast your car is!Pdelamare said:
Or just go on RMA days where you can overtake how you like as long as you aren't a dick or dangerous about it.
Probably not great advice for a novice, to be fair. As someone coming to trackdays recently, the 'only on the left and on straights' rule provides good structure to make sure everyone is on the same page.In a funny turn of juxtaposition, it's not always 'fast' cars that get stuck behind. The 206 GTi I share had a couple of very frustrating laps at Woodbridge on Saturday (see my thread for a full write-up), following an Elise who tiptoed around drying corners (while we were able to push quite hard), and then accelerated on the straights. Overall it was only a brief/minor blot on an excellent day. As a bonus, he had a rear-mounted GoPro, so we might actually get some decent footage of ourselves...
Pdelamare said:
Or just go on RMA days where you can overtake how you like as long as you aren't a dick or dangerous about it.
I felt utterly out of my depth on an RMA day at Brands GP as a novice. I wouldnt recommend them for someone new to track days! I've done a few days, but consider myself a novice at best. Some tips:
Drive your own laps, but with an eye on your rear view mirror. By this I mean, just because you're in a 400bhp car and a little 180bhp clio is quicker than you - dont make that a thing. His lines are probably better, he is probably smoother and just quicker.
Use your mirrors - but don't panic and let the world overtake you, but if the same car is behind you on a couple of corners, even if you lose him on the straights - let him past and have a couple of slower minutes, and then get going again. If you do that, you'll generally find your own space - that's a great feeling.
IMO, leave the Goldtrack and RMA days until you've done a few days and know the ropes. I use bookatrack and, if I lived closer, would do their Donnington days over and over again. Nothing wrong with RMA and Goldtrack - (I did RMA at Brands GP and Silverstone GP with Goldtrack), but it's a very serious day - we had touring cars testing, as well as some brutally quick track cars. RMA especially was 'interesting' as they allow over taking on either side and not necessarily with consent - so you really need to be on your mirrors and hope the person undertaking you, crossing into your line on paddock hill bend, knows what they are doing!
Get tuition - a session in the morning and another in the afternoon. Drink loads of water, and plenty of snacks! On my first day, I didnt think I was hungry (probably nerves tbh) and didnt eat or drink much, so the drive home was rough!
Dont use 100% of your energy on the track - save 20% for getting stuck on the M25 on the way home
Enjoy it!
I echo Maxf's comment about not making assumptions about horse power:
I have 315 bhp at my disposal from a 5 litre V8 in a reasonably-handling 1100kg car.
So I was amazed at Cadwell Park when i kept being caught in the corners.....
.....by an 1100cc Hillman Imp!
Fact is, it was track prepped, with plenty of attention to the suspension and brakes, but it was running a standard engine with less than 100 bhp.
Cadwell is twisty, and I had limited use of my horsepower advantage on the three short straights.
Whereas he had 15 corners a lap to use his driving skill and handling advantage.
Watching him from the grandstand I learnt a lot about accelerating through and out of the corners.
No way could he have overtaken me unless I allowed him to, but once I did I only caught him again on the straights.
I have 315 bhp at my disposal from a 5 litre V8 in a reasonably-handling 1100kg car.
So I was amazed at Cadwell Park when i kept being caught in the corners.....
.....by an 1100cc Hillman Imp!
Fact is, it was track prepped, with plenty of attention to the suspension and brakes, but it was running a standard engine with less than 100 bhp.
Cadwell is twisty, and I had limited use of my horsepower advantage on the three short straights.
Whereas he had 15 corners a lap to use his driving skill and handling advantage.
Watching him from the grandstand I learnt a lot about accelerating through and out of the corners.
No way could he have overtaken me unless I allowed him to, but once I did I only caught him again on the straights.
whp1983 said:
Standard brakes and tyres are fine to start with (many told me I'd boil fluid or destroy pads on first go)
That means you could brake a lot later than you were then 
Does depend on the track though, it's the big stops from high speed that really cook them quickly - Hangar straight at Silverstone, Bentley straight at Snetterton etc.
C70R said:
Probably not great advice for a novice, to be fair. As someone coming to trackdays recently, the 'only on the left and on straights' rule provides good structure to make sure everyone is on the same page.
In a funny turn of juxtaposition, it's not always 'fast' cars that get stuck behind. The 206 GTi I share had a couple of very frustrating laps at Woodbridge on Saturday (see my thread for a full write-up), following an Elise who tiptoed around drying corners (while we were able to push quite hard), and then accelerated on the straights. Overall it was only a brief/minor blot on an excellent day. As a bonus, he had a rear-mounted GoPro, so we might actually get some decent footage of ourselves...
love my Elise more than any car i've ever owned or driven. like a scalpel on a dry track, but i can see why he might tip toe in the damp.In a funny turn of juxtaposition, it's not always 'fast' cars that get stuck behind. The 206 GTi I share had a couple of very frustrating laps at Woodbridge on Saturday (see my thread for a full write-up), following an Elise who tiptoed around drying corners (while we were able to push quite hard), and then accelerated on the straights. Overall it was only a brief/minor blot on an excellent day. As a bonus, he had a rear-mounted GoPro, so we might actually get some decent footage of ourselves...
i switched to a dedicated track mx5 and now actively seek the wet ;-)
doesn't stop all spins but it's more progressive and certainly easier to fix up if it went really wrong.
moktabe said:
is it likely to be a target to be overtaken? That in itself wouldn't bother me remotely. I am well aware it's more the drivers ability to drive than the car, what would bother me if someone else with about the same experience as myself, i.e none, over assumed their ability and piled into me.
You will inevitably get overtakn at some point on a track day. Now this is no reflection on your driving ability at all. It's just a fact of life that smoeone will always be there thats either a better driver in a similar car or someone in a much faster vehicle. Perhaps even a race driver in a race prepped car. All you can do is be prepared for it by noticing them in the paddock before the event. Along with the occasional glance in the rear mirror when on the straights. Stick to the racing line and they'll go around you. If you move off the racing line they will not be expecting this and will likely result in an accident. ( However accidents on track days are RARE ! )
There is always going to be the risk of a complete novice in a £200 track hack that will be sliding everywhere etc however just spot them early and you'll be fine to steer clear of them. There is plenty of companies that offer track cover included in normal insurance.. I used Competition Car Insurance and also Lloyd and Whyte who are both great and offer 5 track days included in the insurance premium. All insurance is for YOUR OWN CAR ONLY !. If you crash into someone else.. It's their own problem to resolve. However an apology is always a good idea. ( Some people even offer a token guesture in these cases to diffuse a situation £50 / £100 )
Best advise.. dont worry about what might happen.. Just go enjoy yourself.
Plenty of great advice here:
Like the OP I took a stock Clio 172 to the track with:
New dics and pads fitted
4-3mm tyres (I did a couple last year)
A serviced Clio 172, and then an Escort RST to the SS.
On the open days and even the PH Sunday Service at Silverstone I was fine. Sure the latter had a couple of issues with some drivers, but nothing too bad.
I somehow overtook many cars in my 172 around Cadwell on a wet day, including GT86s, 205 GTis and even a few Caterhams and 350Zs! That said, a stock looking MX-5 managed to have me in the corners (it was a Javelin car) as did a very well track prepped MkII Golf GTi on cut up R888s and a Scooby WRX on Nankang NS-IIRs running I suspect 400BHP. The standard of driving for the best part was superb and with that much time if you did come across a twit on track you just let the car cool off and then carry on. Time was not an issue.
I also gained time with tuition. That was by far the handiest thing of the day, and something I'd do again.
At Castle Combe during a Forge Action Day track time taster that has to be up there with one of the worst trackdays I have done. Zero obeyance by many for overtaking, many people in high BHP cars but crap handling holding everyone up in the corners. It was like being in a street race driven by fools.
The Destination Nurburgring event last week was also surprisingly good. OK, it wasn't cheap but the track quality is the same as that of an open pit lane day, a rarity on the 'ring during a TF IME.
In short I recommend the following:
Ensure the brake fluid was changed at some point during the last two years.
Get an half day or a an open pit lane
Follow the driver briefings. You may learn something from drivers in other slower cars, and make it more enjoyable for everyone.
Like the OP I took a stock Clio 172 to the track with:
New dics and pads fitted
4-3mm tyres (I did a couple last year)
A serviced Clio 172, and then an Escort RST to the SS.
On the open days and even the PH Sunday Service at Silverstone I was fine. Sure the latter had a couple of issues with some drivers, but nothing too bad.
I somehow overtook many cars in my 172 around Cadwell on a wet day, including GT86s, 205 GTis and even a few Caterhams and 350Zs! That said, a stock looking MX-5 managed to have me in the corners (it was a Javelin car) as did a very well track prepped MkII Golf GTi on cut up R888s and a Scooby WRX on Nankang NS-IIRs running I suspect 400BHP. The standard of driving for the best part was superb and with that much time if you did come across a twit on track you just let the car cool off and then carry on. Time was not an issue.
I also gained time with tuition. That was by far the handiest thing of the day, and something I'd do again.
At Castle Combe during a Forge Action Day track time taster that has to be up there with one of the worst trackdays I have done. Zero obeyance by many for overtaking, many people in high BHP cars but crap handling holding everyone up in the corners. It was like being in a street race driven by fools.
The Destination Nurburgring event last week was also surprisingly good. OK, it wasn't cheap but the track quality is the same as that of an open pit lane day, a rarity on the 'ring during a TF IME.
In short I recommend the following:
Ensure the brake fluid was changed at some point during the last two years.
Get an half day or a an open pit lane
Follow the driver briefings. You may learn something from drivers in other slower cars, and make it more enjoyable for everyone.
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