Hans device...or not? Fire proof overalls? Opinions please
Discussion
alicrozier said:
I'd recommend trial fitting a HANS device in the car (borrow one if you can) first of all to get the right size/angle but also as not all seats are 'HANS compatible'. By that I mean there needs to be enough space for the upper part of the HANS device behind the helmet without pushing your head forward.
You'd get an idea what I mean there needs to be enough room to put your hand between helmet and seat.
Standard Lotus seats for example don't work with HANS, the 'HANS compatible' versions have a recess at shoulder/neck area to allow space.
I use HANS for trackdays in my Lotus 2-11. It's been a bit of a quandary for me to use it when wearing a helmet on the road (which you need to in the rain). It's a trade off of safety in a collision vs visibility/movement limitations. My personal decision is to not wear it on the road and only wear a helmet when I absolutely have to...
This is interesting. I bought a HANS and have first used it in my Exige 360 Cup. The back of the HANS touches the seat so you need to mess around to get seated properly. Does this means the HANS is not sitting properly? My Exige runs the Lotus carbon buckets.You'd get an idea what I mean there needs to be enough room to put your hand between helmet and seat.
Standard Lotus seats for example don't work with HANS, the 'HANS compatible' versions have a recess at shoulder/neck area to allow space.
I use HANS for trackdays in my Lotus 2-11. It's been a bit of a quandary for me to use it when wearing a helmet on the road (which you need to in the rain). It's a trade off of safety in a collision vs visibility/movement limitations. My personal decision is to not wear it on the road and only wear a helmet when I absolutely have to...
OP, yes, get a HANS/Simpson. I have a race suit but tend not to use it. Bad habit.
I've really only done track days at Snetterton with my (adult) kids plus an Autocar day at Prescott. From my own perspective I'd be in the don't bother camp because a) the car (a 2009 Focus RS) isn't track-oriented enough and b) we don't drive it hard enough. If we were driving a tiv, caterham or elise and, importantly, really planning to go for it that's a different matter completely. I have an old mini in the garage which is my retirement track car project. I'd probably wear flameproof kit and hans in that when it's built. I've had a head-on accident in a mini on the road which caused me to punch out the windscreen with my right hand (instinctively protecting my head) and damage my legs on the steering wheel at reasonably low speed so for a track car version I'd probably take all the precautions I could. And like you OP I'm past the point of caring what other people think about my attire.
Edited by checkmate91 on Thursday 12th January 21:33
After many years doing trackdays I started using a HANS last year. A few things triggered it - first Darren's crash vid as above. Secondly I read a statistic somewhere about neck injuries and motorsport - the chance of being injured by fire is relatively slim compared to the chances of a neck injury (not that you shouldn't wear fireproofs).
I had to adjust the mount points and get new belts on the Caterham to make it work, but well worth it.
I don't wear a fireproof suit, but really should - basically don't through laziness and for comfort factors, not really excusable. If you've got the suit - wear it!
I had to adjust the mount points and get new belts on the Caterham to make it work, but well worth it.
I don't wear a fireproof suit, but really should - basically don't through laziness and for comfort factors, not really excusable. If you've got the suit - wear it!
Timely thread. I received my first HANS device yesterday and had a quick test fit in the car (Caterham).
Modifications are required to the harness mounting points. Cutting and welding, no trifling matter. It has a rigid racing seat. I may need a different one. It wasn't at all comfortable as it is and I certainly wouldn't be getting the full benefit out of it.
OP, looking at your pic, I can only imagine that you'd have even more butchery to do. First on the chopping board, those plush spongy seats.
Modifications are required to the harness mounting points. Cutting and welding, no trifling matter. It has a rigid racing seat. I may need a different one. It wasn't at all comfortable as it is and I certainly wouldn't be getting the full benefit out of it.
OP, looking at your pic, I can only imagine that you'd have even more butchery to do. First on the chopping board, those plush spongy seats.
The guy who services my TVR races a similar car and uses a Hans device. He has a Tillet seat in his stripped out race car, so perhaps my first port of call will be to ask him to wear his kit and show me how it all sits/fits in his car.
All Chimaeras have a harness anchorage point built in by the factory to the top corner each side of the chassis above the diff. It may be that I have to use that for the rear top belt fixing, and swap my driver's seat for track days - it's only fixed by four bolts through the floor, but unlike factory standard cars, my seats are already actually fixed through the chassis itself, not through the fibre glass floor alone. At least if I use a proper race seat on the track I will be able to fit a full six-point harness. Food for thought, and I have a good 2-3 months to think about it and get it sorted. Thanks. Fire proof overalls - no brainer, sitting here at the computer.
All Chimaeras have a harness anchorage point built in by the factory to the top corner each side of the chassis above the diff. It may be that I have to use that for the rear top belt fixing, and swap my driver's seat for track days - it's only fixed by four bolts through the floor, but unlike factory standard cars, my seats are already actually fixed through the chassis itself, not through the fibre glass floor alone. At least if I use a proper race seat on the track I will be able to fit a full six-point harness. Food for thought, and I have a good 2-3 months to think about it and get it sorted. Thanks. Fire proof overalls - no brainer, sitting here at the computer.
If the HANS are proving problematic then go Simpson Hybrid. They also provide side support in case of a side impact that the HANS doesn't. If I were buying again then I'd look hard at the Simpson offerings. Recently bought one for my missus.
checkmate91 said:
I've really only done track days at Snetterton with my (adult) kids plus an Autocar day at Prescott. From my own perspective I'd be in the don't bother camp because a) the car (a 2009 Focus RS) isn't track-oriented enough and b) we don't drive it hard enough.
Can't see any relevance regarding how track orientated the car is. A HANS/Hybrid makes track work safer irrespective of make, model or spec of vehicle.Edited by foxsasha on Friday 13th January 08:04
OP you'll probably find that, as with my Caterham, the factory shoulder belt mounting points are too far apart and new mounting bosses need welding in closer together.
foxsasha said:
Can't see any relevance regarding how track orientated the car is. A HANS/Hybrid makes track work safer irrespective of make, model or spec of vehicle.
Well, if you've got inertia reel seat belts it's impossible, and if you have a standard seat and no roll cage then harnesses may not be practical / advisable. You really need a 5 or 6 point harness.HustleRussell said:
Timely thread. I received my first HANS device yesterday and had a quick test fit in the car (Caterham).
Modifications are required to the harness mounting points. Cutting and welding, no trifling matter. It has a rigid racing seat. I may need a different one. It wasn't at all comfortable as it is and I certainly wouldn't be getting the full benefit out of it.
You don't have to cut/weld. You can fabricate (or have someone do it for you) and adaptor plate which moves the mount points (there are many in motorsport using the same method - not all cars went to Arch). I also had to give up on the Caterham belts as they were far too uncomfortable to use with the HANS, a specific set of HANS belts which are 3" at the buckle, but go down to 2" over the HANS itself solved that problem.Modifications are required to the harness mounting points. Cutting and welding, no trifling matter. It has a rigid racing seat. I may need a different one. It wasn't at all comfortable as it is and I certainly wouldn't be getting the full benefit out of it.
HustleRussell said:
Well, if you've got inertia reel seat belts it's impossible, and if you have a standard seat and no roll cage then harnesses may not be practical / advisable. You really need a 5 or 6 point harness.
That's not the meaning I took from the post. I read it as HANS isn't worth using because the car isn't track modified. Saying you won't runs HANS because you can't run HANS would be superfluous. GreigM said:
HustleRussell said:
Timely thread. I received my first HANS device yesterday and had a quick test fit in the car (Caterham).
Modifications are required to the harness mounting points. Cutting and welding, no trifling matter. It has a rigid racing seat. I may need a different one. It wasn't at all comfortable as it is and I certainly wouldn't be getting the full benefit out of it.
You don't have to cut/weld. You can fabricate (or have someone do it for you) and adaptor plate which moves the mount points (there are many in motorsport using the same method - not all cars went to Arch). I also had to give up on the Caterham belts as they were far too uncomfortable to use with the HANS, a specific set of HANS belts which are 3" at the buckle, but go down to 2" over the HANS itself solved that problem.Modifications are required to the harness mounting points. Cutting and welding, no trifling matter. It has a rigid racing seat. I may need a different one. It wasn't at all comfortable as it is and I certainly wouldn't be getting the full benefit out of it.
foxsasha said:
HustleRussell said:
foxsasha said:
checkmate91 said:
I've really only done track days at Snetterton with my (adult) kids plus an Autocar day at Prescott. From my own perspective I'd be in the don't bother camp because a) the car (a 2009 Focus RS) isn't track-oriented enough and b) we don't drive it hard enough.
Can't see any relevance regarding how track orientated the car is. A HANS/Hybrid makes track work safer irrespective of make, model or spec of vehicle.HustleRussell said:
What you said is “a HANS/Hybrid makes track work safer irrespective of make, model or spec of vehicle”. The fact is it doesn’t. Both systems are actually quite fussy about their installation and use. Many people trackday factory standard production cars.
Why don't they? Or is your point that they aren't safer if not used with suitable seat and harness? Which is akin to saying they aren't safer if not used with a helmet. It's a given that the devices require appropriate ancillaries.HustleRussell said:
Very interesting, thanks. Does an adapter plate pass scrutineering? Is there a spec for the material? Food for thought on the belts. I bet 2" belts would improve my situation quite a lot.
If I remember it had to be a minimum of 4mm thick ali plate. Its a very simple concept - 2 holes for you to bolt in onto existing mounting points, with 2 further holes used to attach your belts (worked out for the correct position). There is this guide online (nothing to do with me):
http://www.fastgrandad.co.uk/documents/Fixing%20pl...
Others have mounted the plate facing forward, like DCL in this post (mine is n this style):
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I believe both methods have passed scrutineering in various series.
foxsasha said:
HustleRussell said:
What you said is “a HANS/Hybrid makes track work safer irrespective of make, model or spec of vehicle”. The fact is it doesn’t. Both systems are actually quite fussy about their installation and use. Many people trackday factory standard production cars.
Why don't they? Or is your point that they aren't safer if not used with suitable seat and harness? Which is akin to saying they aren't safer if not used with a helmet. It's a given that the devices require appropriate ancillaries.df76 said:
Can't quite follow all of the posts, but if you're running normal road safety devices (inertia belts and airbags - passive safety) there is no purpose for any HANS device. However, given what we all now know, as soon as normal road safety features are removed there shouldn't be half measures and HANS should become part of the safety set up (cage, seat, belts, HANS).
For what I can gather an airbag and harness is not a good idea. Not 100% clear on harness and cage, there's a good argument that a harness requires a cage but I don't know how valid that is. But then for a car used on the road a front cage is a bad idea. There is also a strong argument that helmet and airbag are not a good idea.It's difficult to work out what's best so I just ticked every box and bought a track car with no airbags, rear cage, buckets, harnesses and wear a HANS and, but not all the time, a full suit.
What are thoughts on airbags and helmets with a normal seatbelt. Airbags left on or disabled? Research seems to suggest that airbags and helmet are safe, has anyone anything extra to add? The argument against is that the airbag hits the helmet and can catch underneath the chin and snap the head back or, if the body is not travelling directly forward, can twist the neck to one side.
Interesting.
I have had a frontal impact crash in which the airbag went off.
I tend to sit well back, for me the only negative was the burns on my bare arm, as I had the wheel turned trying to avoid the impact, and my forearm just over the airbag got burnt by the firing explosive. Not a deep burn.
I was totally unaware of the airbag otherwise.
It was on the road, so not wearing a helmet, and I hit a stone wall head on at about 30 mph..
My track car has no airbags. No ABS, no side impact protection, no traction control. Good old analogue TVR.
One question...does the Simpson device need harnesses, or is that the whole point of it?
I have had a frontal impact crash in which the airbag went off.
I tend to sit well back, for me the only negative was the burns on my bare arm, as I had the wheel turned trying to avoid the impact, and my forearm just over the airbag got burnt by the firing explosive. Not a deep burn.
I was totally unaware of the airbag otherwise.
It was on the road, so not wearing a helmet, and I hit a stone wall head on at about 30 mph..
My track car has no airbags. No ABS, no side impact protection, no traction control. Good old analogue TVR.
One question...does the Simpson device need harnesses, or is that the whole point of it?
foxsasha said:
What are thoughts on airbags and helmets with a normal seatbelt. Airbags left on or disabled? Research seems to suggest that airbags and helmet are safe, has anyone anything extra to add? The argument against is that the airbag hits the helmet and can catch underneath the chin and snap the head back or, if the body is not travelling directly forward, can twist the neck to one side.
This was researched c.10 years ago in the USA. I think that one club banned the use of helmets with airbags, however, the subsequent research showed that there was very little issue - http://aimss.com.au/helmet-airbag-interaction-full... That said, in a car with multiple airbags there may be very little need for a helmet at all.Harness and airbag. The normal inertia belt and airbag work together, and if using a harness I'd remove the airbag and then use a HANS instead (but I'd also want a decent cage and seat with good side protection).
Edited by df76 on Saturday 14th January 12:21
Gassing Station | Track Days | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff