Hans device...or not? Fire proof overalls? Opinions please

[red997]

df76 said:

This was researched c.10 years ago in the USA. I think that one club banned the use of helmets with airbags, however, the subsequent research showed that there was very little issue - http://aimss.com.au/helmet-airbag-interaction-full... That said, in a car with multiple airbags there may be very little need for a helmet at all.

Harness and airbag. The normal inertia belt and airbag work together, and if using a harness I'd remove the airbag and then use a HANS instead (but I'd also want a decent cage and seat with good side protection).

Edited by df76 on Saturday 14th January 12:21

I wonder how this applies to my car - 991 GT3 Clubsport, which has airbags and harnesses from the factory... ?

[df76]

red997 said:

df76 said:

This was researched c.10 years ago in the USA. I think that one club banned the use of helmets with airbags, however, the subsequent research showed that there was very little issue - http://aimss.com.au/helmet-airbag-interaction-full... That said, in a car with multiple airbags there may be very little need for a helmet at all.

Harness and airbag. The normal inertia belt and airbag work together, and if using a harness I'd remove the airbag and then use a HANS instead (but I'd also want a decent cage and seat with good side protection).

Edited by df76 on Saturday 14th January 12:21

I wonder how this applies to my car - 991 GT3 Clubsport, which has airbags and harnesses from the factory... ?

Good question for Porsche. I would be wanting to avoid using a full harness without HANS (unless the neck issue was sorted by the safety "system").

[foxsasha]

red997 said:

I wonder how this applies to my car - 991 GT3 Clubsport, which has airbags and harnesses from the factory... ?

I believe the potential issue with airbag and harness is that the body is not travelling forward when hit by the airbag as it would be with a three point. Would be interesting to see Porsches findings that led them to supply the car in that spec.

A harness without HANS is argued to cause additional neck issues as the body is held largely in position resulting in the head snapping forward.

Another point to note is the suitability of four point harnesses in the first instance, see short video below:

https://youtu.be/8nsg_ze-CG8

[alicrozier]

foxsasha said:

This is interesting. I bought a HANS and have first used it in my Exige 360 Cup. The back of the HANS touches the seat so you need to mess around to get seated properly. Does this means the HANS is not sitting properly? My Exige runs the Lotus carbon buckets.

That could be the case but I think as long as you can get to a comfortable position and it's not pushing your head forward it will be safe. The 'HANS compatible' phrase seems to be just meaning there is more space but I'm not aware of a spec or standard.

It's difficult to tell 'HANS compatibility' of seats from a quick check of Lotus brochures online. For current models I notice only the new Exige Race 380 has an option for HANS compatible FIA fixed mount seat and the 3-eleven Road version mentions HANS compatible composite seats.

In an Exige (with hardtop and standard seats) I couldn't wear my HANS device as my head was pushed forward into a very uncomfortable position and as I'm tall the helmet was also then hard against the roof.

[mpit]

One question I have about HANS compatibility is harness spacing.

The booklet that came with my Stand 21 device says that that harnesses much be mounted closer together than the width of my hans.

My issue is that the Carbon Probax seat in the Elise I'm using has holes that are further apart than the width of the HANS, so technically puts the whole thing out of spec.

I've contacted the manufacturer of the harnesses and the HANS device to see whether it's a case of ideals and it'll still be better than nothing or whether it's dangerous and I'm better with no hans.

[HustleRussell]

mpit said:

One question I have about HANS compatibility is harness spacing.

The booklet that came with my Stand 21 device says that that harnesses much be mounted closer together than the width of my hans.

My issue is that the Carbon Probax seat in the Elise I'm using has holes that are further apart than the width of the HANS, so technically puts the whole thing out of spec.

I've contacted the manufacturer of the harnesses and the HANS device to see whether it's a case of ideals and it'll still be better than nothing or whether it's dangerous and I'm better with no hans.

Earlier in the thread GreigM suggested using 2" shoulder belts which gives a little more flexibility on mounting point spacing/clearance but the HANS does rely on the mounting points being closer together than the point where the belts go over your shoulders. I'd normally fit a Tillett rigid seat like yours but may end up with a bag seat instead for this reason...

[mpit]

HANS belts aren't an option with it being a road car, too.

What's a bag seat?

[red997]

foxsasha said:

I believe the potential issue with airbag and harness is that the body is not travelling forward when hit by the airbag as it would be with a three point. Would be interesting to see Porsches findings that led them to supply the car in that spec.

A harness without HANS is argued to cause additional neck issues as the body is held largely in position resulting in the head snapping forward.

Another point to note is the suitability of four point harnesses in the first instance, see short video below:

https://youtu.be/8nsg_ze-CG8

true, but the Porsche harness is a 6 point Schroth.
Looks like from the videos that movement with a 6 point harness is actually quite similar to that of a 3 point inertia seatbelt - which I find surprising. But then again with pyro seatbelt tensioners maybe thats why the three point seatbelt is pretty good ?
Doesn't mention in the handbook anything regarding a HANS device though

[Shaun_E]

Most of the Tillett seats work well with HANS - I've got a B6 in the Caterham which has larger belt holes than the standard Caterham seat.

[jesfirth]

QBee said:

I just need to re-work the harness fixings, as i want to retain the use of the normal inertia reel belts for road use.

Hi Anthony. The way I retained the standard belt and the harness in the cerb was simply to replace the old mounting bolts with longer bolts with the eye to clip the harness onto. In the griff I took out the standard belts and just used longer eye bolts. In the griff with hans I originally used the standard top seat belt mount by the door for the right hand strap with the left hand strap wrapped round the rear hoop upright. I later moved the right hand seat belt strap to the diagonal brace which made it sit better on my hans shoulder strap. If you are fitting harnesses and Hans you really should also weld a flat plate between the outrigger and tunnel to bolt the seat through. 4mm of fibreglass and small washers will not take much load and the seat and you will fly around in a big crash. If you don't want to weld bits on underneath you could always just get a large chunk of flat cable tray beneath the fibreglass floor and bolt through the grooves in that. it will at least spread the point load form the bolts. That's what I did at first in my cerb. Oh GPR do a reasonable helmet and Hans deal. I bought (2 years ago now) a decent Bell helmet and Sroth Hans for £550 from them. You will find it weird/uncomfortable at first but you soon get used to it. On seats I have a lightweight seat identical to a Tillett but at less than half the price. it even has padding and is fine for long road trips.

[QBee]

Hi Jes.
All very interesting.
In my Chimaera I had some race seats, and fitted track rod ends onto the seat belt (longer) bottom bolts, and then screwed the eyes (for the harnesses to clip onto) into those. 4 point harnesses.
Since I got my lovely Tuscan seats, they are about 5mm too wide to let me do that.
I am going to have to swap in a Tillett type seat for track days I think.
And then swap it back out again afterwards. No big deal - 10 minutes with a decent spanner.
I have most of the harness fixings.....just a case of buying the rest of the kit, and thanks for your suggestions on that.
As I have no intention of competing, all I need to do is buy all the kit once.

I am presently spending considerably more that the cost of the safety kit, refurbishing the car and upgrading the power output.
My head and neck must be worth the cost of the proper kit.

Thanks to all of you for the contributions and discussion - far exceeding my expectations and certainly getting me thinking in the right direction.

[ClassicChimaera]

Good to see this

Best to go somewhere that allows you the car seat and device to be fitted. Some are intrusive as said above.
Dunno if you noticed but I often wear my old carting neck brace.

[DiscoColin]

df76 said:

That said, in a car with multiple airbags there may be very little need for a helmet at all.

If driven one up ... perhaps. However, do note that even if there are curtain airbags to protect your head from the B pillar there is nothing whatsoever to protect your head from impact with that of a passenger (there are stories of extremely serious head-head impacts in accidents on the 'ring over the years). Personally, even surrounded by airbags I still favour the three Hs on track (Harness, Helmet and HANS). Once you have had a fairly heavy hit without a full set of safety gear it suddenly does crystallise in your head why you'd rather have them if you were to go through it again...

[wuckfitracing]

Hi Qbee
Just a quick question, what are your seats bolted to.

Colin

[QBee]

wuckfitracing said:

Hi Qbee
Just a quick question, what are your seats bolted to.

Colin

Through holes in the floor, then the front bolts go through the outrigger centre bar corner plates, while the rear bolts go through a steel strip welded across between the outrigger and the bottom chassis rail

[wuckfitracing]

Good.