Close Call at Anglesey this weekend

[wellground]

WillisRR said:

Wellground, i can asure you I have no ego and i check my mirrors so if i saw you gaining on me i would do everything to get out of your way as quickly and safely as possible.

Likewise if i was gaining on you, i would give you space and overtake once you have given me invitation to... And i wouldn't drift past or anywhere near you either haha.

I too wouldn't feel comfortable with drivers you have never met skidding about near your pride and joy but i can assure you this isn't something I do. As said track days are all about friendly fun!

Fair comment indeed. That was my only concern, not an ego thing at all, you were clearly enjoying it. It's just the one thing that concerns me on track days is car to car contact. That is the only reason for such a comment. But if you have spacial awareness etc, I hope it was great fun.

[StuB]

I think the Red 997 Turbo that went off at turn 1 as soon as the track opened was far far messier than yours. I took pics, but wouldn't want to upset the owner, whom I think might frequent PH too.

TBH, didn't see yours, but think I clocked you cleaning it down with the hose in the early PM?

I quite enjoyed the day, but I found that there seemed to be a lot of traffic, due to the way my Turbo dealt with the conditions more easily than the rear wheel driver cars, all of which seemed to be either in massive understeer or massive oversteer most of the day

Got a bit bored late afternoon so set off on the long drive home.

[boxsey]

WillisRR said:

Thanks for the faith Dan! I have ran wide there in the MK Indy on a dry summer day and never had any real issues but the waterlogged grass really did school me haha!

Edited by WillisRR on Monday 13th March 13:21

At most briefings I attend they say it's fine to use the kerbs but a wheel over the white line is beyond track limits which will result in a driving standards flag and then a black flag if a driver continues to exceed track limits. Your comment above suggests that you regularly and intentionally exceed track limits at that point on the circuit. So ignoring the track day rules nearly cost you big time.

[WillisRR]

Haha not on purpose mate!! Never have I purposley ran wide or hit the grass! Yes I have ran wide on very few occasions, as said i have been doing this consistently for nearly a decade now. The time in the MK was 4 years ago. If i was a better driver these things wouldn't ever happen but sorry we cant all be God like drivers and push our limits without ever making mistakes. It's a very fine line, what more do you want me to say! These things aren't a regular occurance for me. I pride myself on being very safe and consistent and with this being one of two offs in nearly ten years at any track day i have been i wont be beating myself up too much.

As for that certain corner, it's an odd one for me. The corner lulls you into thinking you can go faster and the corner exit is completley blind. It isn't as clear cut as most. If you watch the footage you can see the wet patch i hit on corner exit which throws me that little bit wider. If that wet patch hadn't been there we wouldn't be having this conversation. That said I knew the conditions, i am only human.

Edited by WillisRR on Thursday 16th March 14:57

[WillisRR]

Agreed Stu! The morning was fantastic and found it very quiet.

I went out for 3-4 sessions after lunch and it was impossibly busy! I couldn't quiet understand it when the morning had been so quiet!

Yeah that would of been me, one of many using the on site hose pipe that day haha!!

Poor guy in the 997. I didn't even see that!

[boxsey]

WillisRR said:

Haha not on purpose mate!! Never have I purposley ran wide or hit the grass! Yes I have ran wide on very few occasions, as said i have been doing this consistently for nearly a decade now. The time in the MK was 4 years ago. If i was a better driver these things wouldn't ever happen but sorry we cant all be God like drivers and push our limits without ever making mistakes. It's a very fine line, what more do you want me to say! These things aren't a regular occurance for me. I pride myself on being very safe and consistent and with this being one of two offs in nearly ten years at any track day i have been i wont be beating myself up too much.

As for that certain corner, it's an odd one for me. The corner lulls you into thinking you can go faster and the corner exit is completley blind. It isn't as clear cut as most. If you watch the footage you can see the wet patch i hit on corner exit which throws me that little bit wider. If that wet patch hadn't been there we wouldn't be having this conversation. That said I knew the conditions, i am only human.

Edited by WillisRR on Thursday 16th March 14:57

I'm not being critical of your driving because looking at your other video you've got more skill behind the wheel than I have. It is indeed a tricky corner because it's fast at the apex and tightens on the exit. I think that also makes it one of the best on the circuit (I find the full circuit pretty tedious because of the three hairpins). A mate of mine went off at the same place but being in a GT3 he spun into the infield. Although there's no barriers, that wasn't good either because the ground is uneven and rutted which could lead to a wheel digging in and flipping the car. Luckily only his pride was damaged. My point was that as you admitted to using more than the track on the exit on a previous occasion in the Indy with no consequences, you were willing to try it again even though it was clearly wet in places. That admission is the reason that prompted me to join the discussion, not because I thought it was bad driving.

[WillisRR]

Ahh I see your point, badly worded now i read it back mate and does give the impression i was willing to use it as a 'line', i certainly wasn't haha!

Totally with you, never my intention to run wide, i was staying as clear as i could of the grass after seeing so many go off and literraly sink a good 30cm into solid thick terrid mud. Unfortunatley I got caught out on the corner exit.

Back luck for the GT3 driver, really does make a horrid mess! Better than an impact though I guess!

It's a risk we all take, lesson learnt in how a simple situation can escalate much quicker than anticipated!

Lovely 911 by the way, dont you even think about going off the black stuff in that

Edited by WillisRR on Thursday 16th March 17:50

[boxsey]

If the BTCC ever went to Anglesey the exit of that corner would be a real mess...I don't think any of them would stay on the track there!

The old 911 went this time last year (had if for 9 years) but life's not all bad as I replaced it with a Cayman R

[WillisRR]

Haha one of the first things we said was how incredible it would be for BTCC to go to Anglesey. It really is an amazing track, always seems to be quiet being so far away from the masses.

Amazing stuff! Cayman R makes everything better! Bet it made the 964 going easier to stomach!

Short Anglesey review vid...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MRAGKvPvI5Q

Or the long one including drone and Snowdonia footage ...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cj1xNGUKjwc

[paulmnz]

Angelsey is known as an 'understeer track' when we race there everyone complains of understeer and we run a very different setup to most other UK circuits - so do bear that in mind when you work on your setup.

regarding 'drifting' on trackdays, my understanding (although unwritten) is you'll get black flagged if you look like your not in control of the vehicle, or, the much more likely issue - you make too much noise on a dry day.

[silentbrown]

boxsey said:

At most briefings I attend they say it's fine to use the kerbs but a wheel over the white line is beyond track limits

Usually kerbs are *outside* the white lines???

[RacerMike]

As a tip on the drifting (and not in any way a criticism) it's worth learning not to let go of the steering wheel on the initial oversteer. I know it seems like you have to, to catch it in time, but with enough practice, you should be able to smoothly apply countersteer without taking your hands off he wheel. That will then avoid the issue you have coming out of the drift where you end up over correcting and penduluming back the other way, and it also makes it a lot more difficult to lose where true 12 o'clock is on the wheel.

Also, make sure you don't come off the power mid drift. Maintain a steady throttle through the drift and let the road speed come to the wheel speed. That will greatly reduce the speed at which the car comes back to centre. Have fun!

[BusaMK]

RacerMike said:

As a tip on the drifting (and not in any way a criticism) it's worth learning not to let go of the steering wheel on the initial oversteer. I know it seems like you have to, to catch it in time, but with enough practice, you should be able to smoothly apply countersteer without taking your hands off he wheel!

Mike you have some good points but I'm afraid I have found different - your advice is spot on for normal track driving but not for drifting. I attended a drifting course a few years ago where the instructors (all with a competitive background) spent many hours preventing me from keeping my hands on the wheel while initially applying countersteer- unless you have a quick rack it is very difficult if not impossible to do It quickly enough for a slide especially if you've used weight transfer and a clutch kick. In fact, the instructors were making me touch the ceiling of the car with my hands (!) to prevent my hands from slowing the steering wheel down as it span round in a blur of countersteer. The next thing was learning when to grab it again, all while keeping power on as you describe. This may sounds nuts to the uninitiated, and it is an art not a science, but the instructors really knew their stuff, and took us out doing formation drifts at 70mph using this technique.

OP - I had an off very similar to yours a few years ago and nearly ended up in a barrier. My mistake was planning on using the kerbs on corner exit - and then when I ran wide, I only had the grass left. And the effect of this is even worse if your car is RWD and has a quaife diff putting all your power into the outside wheel.

[RacerMike]

BusaMK said:

Mike you have some good points but I'm afraid I have found different - your advice is spot on for normal track driving but not for drifting. I attended a drifting course a few years ago where the instructors (all with a competitive background) spent many hours preventing me from keeping my hands on the wheel while initially applying countersteer- unless you have a quick rack it is very difficult if not impossible to do It quickly enough for a slide especially if you've used weight transfer and a clutch kick. In fact, the instructors were making me touch the ceiling of the car with my hands (!) to prevent my hands from slowing the steering wheel down as it span round in a blur of countersteer. The next thing was learning when to grab it again, all while keeping power on as you describe. This may sounds nuts to the uninitiated, and it is an art not a science, but the instructors really knew their stuff, and took us out doing formation drifts at 70mph using this technique.

Interesting. That goes against anything I've ever been taught and also against the 6 years of ice driving I've done. And that's in road cars with relatively slow steering racks, not drift cars. If you completely let go of the wheel, you lose any reference as to where the wheels are pointing, and your transition into drift is likely to be horribly snappy. If the transition to drift is so abrupt that you can't catch it with normal hand wheel rate (bearing in mind an average human can achieve around 2000deg/s hand wheel rate) then you need to work on your initiation. Even a clutch kick can be done softly by only using enough revs to break traction (i.e. not 7000rpm on the limiter).

I possibly didn't explain myself very well, as obviously you can't keep a fixed hand position, but it's important to be systematic about your removal of hands from the wheel. You should always aim to overlap (i.e. as you start to reach the end of extension on one hand, grab with the other). If you watch the 'deriftooo king' Keiichi Tsuchiya and his technique in the woefully underpowered AE86 in the Drift Bible here you can see what I'm talking about. He never lets the wheel spin through his hands (OK...there's one point he lets it spin about a quarter to half a turn, but that's easily manageable).

Much like driving fast on a track, drifting is about managing the tyre grip circle. The assumption by many is that you mash the pedal as hard as possible, bounce it off the limiter and wrestle the car to the exit. The reality is that you may sometimes only need 20% throttle, and sometimes you'll need 100%, but with practice, you should be controlling the angle and yaw rate as much with your foot as with your hands. If the wheel is moving so fast you need to let go, work on your throttle....

[WillisRR]

Totally with you and thanks for the advice. When in my MK kit car i never do any of that kind of stuff and most track driving I do doesn't involve that form of 'car control'. In all honesty i was just dicking about after maybe a year away from any type of 'drifting' or rally days. With such a wallowy car it did make things trickier than what i am used to, as you can see it does fishtail out of drifts as the cars weight regains composure. I just let it do what it wants to some degree instead of fighting it, part laziness, part lack of talent.

Hope things don't fight against me as much with the stiffer suspension set up as the weight should be much easier to keep neutral. All good fun!

As you can see on this run at Curborough, I normally use less 'drifty' techniques , still much to learn but i have lots of fun doing it!
https://youtu.be/K8A-WlEESu0?t=3m36s

Edited by WillisRR on Wednesday 5th April 09:28

[boxsey]

silentbrown said:

boxsey said:

At most briefings I attend they say it's fine to use the kerbs but a wheel over the white line is beyond track limits

Usually kerbs are *outside* the white lines???

Indeed. That's why they say in the briefing you can use the kerb even though they are beyond the white line. Effectively they extend the track limit where there is a kerb and make it an exception. Where there is no kerb the white line is the track limit. Going over it in that case is regarded as a black and white flag offense on trackdays. Whereas when racing they may allow two wheels over.

[silentbrown]

boxsey said:

Indeed. That's why they say in the briefing you can use the kerb even though they are beyond the white line. Effectively they extend the track limit where there is a kerb and make it an exception. Where there is no kerb the white line is the track limit.

Ah, Makes sense, then.

I remember the C of C at one of the my first race briefings simply saying "The black stuff is yours. The green stuff is mine".