Gooning. Why?.....
Discussion
I agree with a lot of the comments in that the 'gooning' does not seem to be the problem, the problem is people either:
a) not allowing quicker vehicles to overtake
b) driving beyond their abilities, causing sessions to be stopped
if they are not falling into one of those categories, then there is no problem, and I don't care how they get around the track.
I do think the poster raised a good point, but I think that those on 110% effort hot laps should be put into the same category, and that starts an entirely new topic about where you draw the line :-D
Martin
a) not allowing quicker vehicles to overtake
b) driving beyond their abilities, causing sessions to be stopped
if they are not falling into one of those categories, then there is no problem, and I don't care how they get around the track.
I do think the poster raised a good point, but I think that those on 110% effort hot laps should be put into the same category, and that starts an entirely new topic about where you draw the line :-D
Martin
My point (which seems to have been lost somewhere) is that a track day is no place to try to perfect your drifting technique. That's what drifting days are for. What would you say if somebody turned up to a track day to learn to drive? You tell them to get lost. Why should it be any different somebody turning up to learn to drive sideways?
This goon on Sunday didn't hold me up for long. He spun and I drove gently past. He probably didn't even know I was giving him room, because I could see he was driving like such a numpty that he was going to spin soon, and I didn't want to be anywhere near him.
I didn't need to complain to the organisers, because they black flagged him.
Another goon stuck his car so deeply into the kitty litter that we lost about 20 minutes of track time while they hauled him out (he was also clever enough to try to drive his 4WD car out of the kitty litter and managed to bury it completely).
If you're a dyed in the wool gooner, and you're good at it (like Danny apparently is), then that's one thing. When you're a numpty who is trying to learn to slide and WILL spin while learning, do it on a drifting day.
This goon on Sunday didn't hold me up for long. He spun and I drove gently past. He probably didn't even know I was giving him room, because I could see he was driving like such a numpty that he was going to spin soon, and I didn't want to be anywhere near him.
I didn't need to complain to the organisers, because they black flagged him.
Another goon stuck his car so deeply into the kitty litter that we lost about 20 minutes of track time while they hauled him out (he was also clever enough to try to drive his 4WD car out of the kitty litter and managed to bury it completely).
If you're a dyed in the wool gooner, and you're good at it (like Danny apparently is), then that's one thing. When you're a numpty who is trying to learn to slide and WILL spin while learning, do it on a drifting day.
james said:
My point (which seems to have been lost somewhere) is that a track day is no place to try to perfect your drifting technique. That's what drifting days are for. What would you say if somebody turned up to a track day to learn to drive? You tell them to get lost. Why should it be any different somebody turning up to learn to drive sideways?
I DO go to trackdays to learn how to drive - I didn't stop learning after my test, and I hope I never do. I put learning how to goon and learning how to hot-lap in the same category - difference is one person is going faster than the others!
Personally I think you're over-reacting to all of this, based on a clearly bad experience with inconsiderate drivers who just happened to be gooning.
At the trackdays I've been to, the biggest hold-ups have been due to test-pilots stuffing their cars (about half the time race-spec cars - they were clearly getting cheap testing time!) deep into the kitty-litter. Not from people having fun and trying sideways...they often span, but if you were giving them room you just drove around them and let them sort themselves out!
It's hardly surprising people want to slide cars around when that's all you see on TV - Top Gear/Fifth Gear et al. I have no problem with it at all but inconsiderate driving is another thing altogether. Even on a race track it is possible to slide cars around whilst learning but of course it's all a question of degree and picking a sensible corner ie not one which will result in damage/delays if you overcook it.
Developing car control has to be a good thing. Don't knock the technique or the people that try it ("numpties"/"goons" whatever) but I agree the least one should expect on a track day is courtesy and good driving standards generally.
Developing car control has to be a good thing. Don't knock the technique or the people that try it ("numpties"/"goons" whatever) but I agree the least one should expect on a track day is courtesy and good driving standards generally.
Mostly sense being talked on this thread.
But remember if you're hot lapping and you mis-judge a corner some how like late braking, too much power too early or whatever that causes over-steer, it's better if you can control it. I like arse-out action but I prefer "hot lapping" (sounds like a sexual practice though).
But I've passengered with people that have lost it but wouldn't have if they'd have had the ability to control over-steer. You're not a good driver until you can control all the various re-actions of a car.
Admittedly, it's a skill that's less useful as you get better, because you just keep the car controlled and settled at all times, but still an important skill for what you might term an intermediate/enthusiast skill level.
And lets face it, going sideways is fun.
But remember if you're hot lapping and you mis-judge a corner some how like late braking, too much power too early or whatever that causes over-steer, it's better if you can control it. I like arse-out action but I prefer "hot lapping" (sounds like a sexual practice though).
But I've passengered with people that have lost it but wouldn't have if they'd have had the ability to control over-steer. You're not a good driver until you can control all the various re-actions of a car.
Admittedly, it's a skill that's less useful as you get better, because you just keep the car controlled and settled at all times, but still an important skill for what you might term an intermediate/enthusiast skill level.
And lets face it, going sideways is fun.
I feel that gooning should be kept separate from track days.
You may have a very fast car on the straights and in the corners, but it certainly is not if you're gooning around.
If your gooning around then your line through the corner is not one that is optimum for the tracker, in fact you are probably blocking his exit in an emergency, not to mention that your line is not the fastest one.
If you're sliding around on all four tyres with a load of opposite lock, then the car is scrubbing off speed...forcing a following tracking car to upset the handling balance of his own car which is closer to 10/10ths than yours.
Please Have a little consideration for the safety of others and yourself and pick the appropiate event to participate in.
It will be less of a headache for event organisers and easier on those that have to buy track day insurance if the potential for accidents is minimised by one less factor.
m
You may have a very fast car on the straights and in the corners, but it certainly is not if you're gooning around.
If your gooning around then your line through the corner is not one that is optimum for the tracker, in fact you are probably blocking his exit in an emergency, not to mention that your line is not the fastest one.
If you're sliding around on all four tyres with a load of opposite lock, then the car is scrubbing off speed...forcing a following tracking car to upset the handling balance of his own car which is closer to 10/10ths than yours.
Please Have a little consideration for the safety of others and yourself and pick the appropiate event to participate in.
It will be less of a headache for event organisers and easier on those that have to buy track day insurance if the potential for accidents is minimised by one less factor.
m
weed said:
If your gooning around then your line through the corner is not one that is optimum for the tracker, in fact you are probably blocking his exit in an emergency, not to mention that your line is not the fastest one.
If you're sliding around on all four tyres with a load of opposite lock, then the car is scrubbing off speed...forcing a following tracking car to upset the handling balance of his own car which is closer to 10/10ths than yours.
Which is why many of us are saying "it's OK if the driver keeps an eye in his mirrors and doesn't hold anyone up / put anyone in jeopardy" which TBH is how everyone on a trackday should be driving, whether they're learning the car, hot-lapping, cheap-testing (IMHO these are the worst as they think they're better than everyone else) OR gooning.
And this is from someone who doesn't goon - to put it another way:-
"FFS, lets be tolerant of each other - there are few enough people around tolerant enough of driving enthusiasts already!!!"
good point Havoc.
I am totally intolerant of anyone on track who is one of the following:
Slow
unobservant
not getting the full potential from their car
not trying
getting in my way
driving dangerously
etc. etc.
However, I have never banged on any forum about the people concerned because
a) there is nothing to be gained
b) it wouldn't make a difference to future track days
c) although they p**s me off, it doesn't get under my skin enough for me to make comment about it
d) what do you expect? Everyone is different.
I have tried all sorts of different stuff on track days and I have found that if you go too far, the organisers or officials will be having words with you.
Live and let live - basically if someone is doing something that could injure you or reduce your track time you need to stay well clear of them and report the incident to the organisers, not bitch about it after the event. However, if someone is just getting on your t*ts because they have a different driving style than you do, then where do you think the problem lies, perhaps a few prozacs would be in order before getting near a car again. It is very simple, keep an eye on when they are on track and stay out of their way, or hold back a touch until you know they will not be an issue to you.
What I don't get are people who take diesel Skodas on the track and pootle around the corners to see that they can accelerate as much as a petrol car in a straight line! and Elise drivers who drive slower on track than a peugeot hatchback down a country lane.
If any of the people that slate gooning, drifting etc. could say to me that they push their cars 100% on track or road and could confidently deal with hitting a bit of oil, damp patch, losing pressure in a rear tyre, some other kind of car failure that would basically make the car slide and safely and calmly bring everything back under control then I would be amazed.
If you couldn't say that you could deal with those situations then get on a skid pan and learn because it is a fact of life that if you drive your cars to their limits then sh*t happens. If you don't drive your cars to their limits then what is the point of doing a track day?
I am totally intolerant of anyone on track who is one of the following:
Slow
unobservant
not getting the full potential from their car
not trying
getting in my way
driving dangerously
etc. etc.
However, I have never banged on any forum about the people concerned because
a) there is nothing to be gained
b) it wouldn't make a difference to future track days
c) although they p**s me off, it doesn't get under my skin enough for me to make comment about it
d) what do you expect? Everyone is different.
I have tried all sorts of different stuff on track days and I have found that if you go too far, the organisers or officials will be having words with you.
Live and let live - basically if someone is doing something that could injure you or reduce your track time you need to stay well clear of them and report the incident to the organisers, not bitch about it after the event. However, if someone is just getting on your t*ts because they have a different driving style than you do, then where do you think the problem lies, perhaps a few prozacs would be in order before getting near a car again. It is very simple, keep an eye on when they are on track and stay out of their way, or hold back a touch until you know they will not be an issue to you.
What I don't get are people who take diesel Skodas on the track and pootle around the corners to see that they can accelerate as much as a petrol car in a straight line! and Elise drivers who drive slower on track than a peugeot hatchback down a country lane.
If any of the people that slate gooning, drifting etc. could say to me that they push their cars 100% on track or road and could confidently deal with hitting a bit of oil, damp patch, losing pressure in a rear tyre, some other kind of car failure that would basically make the car slide and safely and calmly bring everything back under control then I would be amazed.
If you couldn't say that you could deal with those situations then get on a skid pan and learn because it is a fact of life that if you drive your cars to their limits then sh*t happens. If you don't drive your cars to their limits then what is the point of doing a track day?
rmac said:
If you don't drive your cars to their limits then what is the point of doing a track day?
Er, for enjoyment? Not everyone is a wannabe racer, if I choose to do a trackday then I drive at my limits, NOT the car's. Most people don't tend to have the funds to allow a dedicated track car, so it's understandable if they don't want to bend what may be their daily transport. As long as they're not deliberately holding people up then I don't see the problem.
Digital - fair enough, at least you are driving to your limits even if you are not reaching your cars.
My point is I don't get what the difference is to a good country lane and a race track if you are not going to push harder than you would on a road. i.e. if you are not going to get near your limits or the cars.
You don't need a dedicated track car either - I have used plenty of my everyday transport cars on various tracks and I have not held back because the car has to get me home again. I figure that I am there for one purpose - to have as much fun as I can and if I have to worry about how much tyres and brakes I have left on the car then that means the fun is less.
If you want to preserve tyres then don't do track days - simple
regarding your wannabe racer thing - totally disagree. I don't like being close to others on the circuit which is why I always use a certain track day company that has strict rules on overtaking and etiquette. My cars are set up for fun rather than outright speed. If all I wanted to do was set lap records I would have a Radical type thing, which I don't. I use cheap tyres rather than trick expensive stuff so the limits are breached sooner rather than later but one thing is for sure, I always give it 100% on track and also find that the mistakes happen when I am not committed or concentrating fully, not when pushing.
As it happens, I did get my race license earlier this year because I won a competition and had to. I have been able to experience test days as a result which some love, but I hate. I have never seen so many unecessary accidents as on the test days that i have done. It's all a big co*k fest.
My point is I don't get what the difference is to a good country lane and a race track if you are not going to push harder than you would on a road. i.e. if you are not going to get near your limits or the cars.
You don't need a dedicated track car either - I have used plenty of my everyday transport cars on various tracks and I have not held back because the car has to get me home again. I figure that I am there for one purpose - to have as much fun as I can and if I have to worry about how much tyres and brakes I have left on the car then that means the fun is less.
If you want to preserve tyres then don't do track days - simple
regarding your wannabe racer thing - totally disagree. I don't like being close to others on the circuit which is why I always use a certain track day company that has strict rules on overtaking and etiquette. My cars are set up for fun rather than outright speed. If all I wanted to do was set lap records I would have a Radical type thing, which I don't. I use cheap tyres rather than trick expensive stuff so the limits are breached sooner rather than later but one thing is for sure, I always give it 100% on track and also find that the mistakes happen when I am not committed or concentrating fully, not when pushing.
As it happens, I did get my race license earlier this year because I won a competition and had to. I have been able to experience test days as a result which some love, but I hate. I have never seen so many unecessary accidents as on the test days that i have done. It's all a big co*k fest.
rmac,
There aren't all that many people (racers included) who drive to the limits of their car. It's usually the driver who is the limiting factor.
Think about it. 2 drivers in identical cars. They should both manage identical lap times. Yes? Ok, so why don't F1 races, BTCC races etc. have pairs of cars coming home a thousandth of a second apart? Perhaps because their drivers aren't driving their cars to their limits.
Maybe you should run a master class
There aren't all that many people (racers included) who drive to the limits of their car. It's usually the driver who is the limiting factor.
Think about it. 2 drivers in identical cars. They should both manage identical lap times. Yes? Ok, so why don't F1 races, BTCC races etc. have pairs of cars coming home a thousandth of a second apart? Perhaps because their drivers aren't driving their cars to their limits.
Maybe you should run a master class
maybe - good idea
Anyway, in all seriousness, I did say that if people are driving to their limits, and I guess what I man by that is near to their limits.
I have just come across so many people that seem to do track days just so they can say they have been on track - it's all about fun and you can have decent fun on a nice road - surely the idea of a track day is to push a bit harder than you would on the road or to figure out what you and your car can do, so without going off topic completely, my point is, Why would anyone have a problem with another trackday goer finding out what he and his car can do - i.e gooning, drifting, going sideways etc.
Lets be fair - unless you are pretty good and know exactly where the police are then you can't do this on the public highway.
So long as they are not making everyone else crash, hold up the day or stop others from doing what they went to do then why would anyone have a problem with them?
The day I stop learning something by doing a track day about either my personal limitations or the cars limitations then I guess that will be the day to either stop doing track days because all of a sudden the fun would stop or like you say, I should perhaps be the next Don Palmer.
I am not perfect and I know I have loads more to learn / achieve on track and in my car so I will keep on trying as hard as I can.
I am not confident that if something went wrong, I could deal with it which is why I will continue to push myself and car to new limits.
I guess I expect others to think the same - without setting a challenge for yourself, I don't get it! And that may well involve gooning around the longest corner in existence or simply getting around a circuit in one piece having had the tyres squeel once or twice.
Each to their own - I have gone a long way around saying this now in several posts. I have never even posted on this forum before this week and having read several posts before I felt the need to post on this thread because I feel some people have i in for others who experiment or push - whichever way you look at it.
Drifting, gooning, etc. is not so easy, if it was everyone would do it and it would not be frowned upon on the public highway but the fact remains, most can't do it and I have a problem with the ones that can't slating others for trying. I don't know a single person that would not like to be able to drift any corner at will. If they choose not too then fair play, but if they want a go - leave em to it - they are only likley to learn or crash - wither way, it doesn;t affect the original poster for more than 15 minutes in the worse case scenario!
I must add a note to this:
In no way am I saying everyone should goon on track days - there is a time and a place and airfield days and the like are perhaps the place but if someone can avoid upsetting the officials because they clearly demonstrate some kind of basic co-ordination then leave em to it.
Anyway, in all seriousness, I did say that if people are driving to their limits, and I guess what I man by that is near to their limits.
I have just come across so many people that seem to do track days just so they can say they have been on track - it's all about fun and you can have decent fun on a nice road - surely the idea of a track day is to push a bit harder than you would on the road or to figure out what you and your car can do, so without going off topic completely, my point is, Why would anyone have a problem with another trackday goer finding out what he and his car can do - i.e gooning, drifting, going sideways etc.
Lets be fair - unless you are pretty good and know exactly where the police are then you can't do this on the public highway.
So long as they are not making everyone else crash, hold up the day or stop others from doing what they went to do then why would anyone have a problem with them?
The day I stop learning something by doing a track day about either my personal limitations or the cars limitations then I guess that will be the day to either stop doing track days because all of a sudden the fun would stop or like you say, I should perhaps be the next Don Palmer.
I am not perfect and I know I have loads more to learn / achieve on track and in my car so I will keep on trying as hard as I can.
I am not confident that if something went wrong, I could deal with it which is why I will continue to push myself and car to new limits.
I guess I expect others to think the same - without setting a challenge for yourself, I don't get it! And that may well involve gooning around the longest corner in existence or simply getting around a circuit in one piece having had the tyres squeel once or twice.
Each to their own - I have gone a long way around saying this now in several posts. I have never even posted on this forum before this week and having read several posts before I felt the need to post on this thread because I feel some people have i in for others who experiment or push - whichever way you look at it.
Drifting, gooning, etc. is not so easy, if it was everyone would do it and it would not be frowned upon on the public highway but the fact remains, most can't do it and I have a problem with the ones that can't slating others for trying. I don't know a single person that would not like to be able to drift any corner at will. If they choose not too then fair play, but if they want a go - leave em to it - they are only likley to learn or crash - wither way, it doesn;t affect the original poster for more than 15 minutes in the worse case scenario!
I must add a note to this:
In no way am I saying everyone should goon on track days - there is a time and a place and airfield days and the like are perhaps the place but if someone can avoid upsetting the officials because they clearly demonstrate some kind of basic co-ordination then leave em to it.
Just another thing - f1 cars, btcc cars etc. are different - that's why Schumacher won a few championships and he has been shi*e this year - his car has been off the pace.
However, I agree with you that with identical cars, the times should be near identical.
I have raced this year in a series joined by 25 other drivers in identical cars and the times have been literally within hundreths of a second of each other both during the races, qualifying and in sprints.
There are obviously the top few, the middle of the road and the slower guys but if you take say the top 6 cars / drivers there was next to nothing in the times. The loss of time usually came from a little overcommitment rather than not reaching the limits of the cars. If you have under / oversteer then you will lose time and the differences in times I would confidently say came from some people sliding more than others. Not by people pussy footing around and not trying.
And another thing - if all the drivers in the championship could goon well, they would not have stacked their cars so much.
However, I agree with you that with identical cars, the times should be near identical.
I have raced this year in a series joined by 25 other drivers in identical cars and the times have been literally within hundreths of a second of each other both during the races, qualifying and in sprints.
There are obviously the top few, the middle of the road and the slower guys but if you take say the top 6 cars / drivers there was next to nothing in the times. The loss of time usually came from a little overcommitment rather than not reaching the limits of the cars. If you have under / oversteer then you will lose time and the differences in times I would confidently say came from some people sliding more than others. Not by people pussy footing around and not trying.
And another thing - if all the drivers in the championship could goon well, they would not have stacked their cars so much.
Couple of things...
Previous gooning on an airfield day saved me on a track day. If you can't goon when you're away from traffic on an airfield OR track day, when can you?
Lost it at Cadwell / Hall, and BECAUSE AND ONLY BECAUSE I had experimented with starting drifts in all possible ways the previous month, I managed not to stack it. That meant I immediately knew what I had done wrong when I did it (trail brake turned into braking for too long), and it also meant I knew what ways out of it were (none, so I picked the option that put me spinning on grass rather than understeering into the wall.)
There is NO WAY I would have had the knowledge, and more importantly the confidence, without previously praticing getting into high slip angle situations and knowing not to panic and to stay smooth.
Totally agree than hooning is antisocial when other cars are near. (Let's call it hooning, because this applies to all sorts of oversteer, not just powerslides.)
On the question of space, it would help if certain advanced track users (or worse, average drivers in quick cars, you know who you are Mr M3 CSL owner) remembered that having someone six inches behind is VERY intimidating to someone with less experience. It does work both ways!
Previous gooning on an airfield day saved me on a track day. If you can't goon when you're away from traffic on an airfield OR track day, when can you?
Lost it at Cadwell / Hall, and BECAUSE AND ONLY BECAUSE I had experimented with starting drifts in all possible ways the previous month, I managed not to stack it. That meant I immediately knew what I had done wrong when I did it (trail brake turned into braking for too long), and it also meant I knew what ways out of it were (none, so I picked the option that put me spinning on grass rather than understeering into the wall.)
There is NO WAY I would have had the knowledge, and more importantly the confidence, without previously praticing getting into high slip angle situations and knowing not to panic and to stay smooth.
Totally agree than hooning is antisocial when other cars are near. (Let's call it hooning, because this applies to all sorts of oversteer, not just powerslides.)
On the question of space, it would help if certain advanced track users (or worse, average drivers in quick cars, you know who you are Mr M3 CSL owner) remembered that having someone six inches behind is VERY intimidating to someone with less experience. It does work both ways!
Gassing Station | Track Days | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff