Accelerating before apex
Discussion
markelvin said:
Yep, braking over Avon Rise is a really good way to enf up backwards in the tyres at Quarry.
Having said that, at the Stroke Association Day I was getting the hang of braking later befor the rise, the trail braking over the rise, then harder again after the rise.
Having said that, at the Stroke Association Day I was getting the hang of braking later befor the rise, the trail braking over the rise, then harder again after the rise.
I'm there on Saturday for the PCGB day. Should be fun.
fergus said:
be aware that if it's damp (not wet), the track is almost as slippery as certain bits of the 'Ring. Last sat on the stroke association day, my caterham had absolutely no grip at all, even following a softening of all the suspension settings....
Castle Combe is no fun at all in the wet. Not enough run off - anywhere. The strong likelihood of coming a cropper somewhere near something hard tends to curb the exuberance of the occasion. Fun in the wet? You need Bedford for that...
Edited by Don on Tuesday 31st October 11:42
gridgway said:
mmm-five said:
Totally depends on the corner. For instance you've got Folly at Castle Coombe which is basically a 'kink' when you're doing 80mph, but becomes a scary bend when doing 120mph - however in both instances you are accelerating fully from the previous corner
I'm guessing that the OP meant in corners where your entry speed would be too high unless reduced by braking.
mmm-five said:
...up to Avon Rise where you are braking, turning, braking.
Surely a mis-type...er..turning and braking, not sure what the first braking was for!!
Graham
That's why I put the commas there - to emphasise that they were discrete items (i.e. brake, lift off brake, turn across the rise, straighten up, brake).
I just about get to the top of 4th gear (135mph) before I need to retard my speed a little.
Unfortunately in a 2 ton barge, anything that's not done in a straight line (apart from turning of course) tends to end up sideways.
My old car was not fast enough to require braking before Avon Rise as it weighed 2/3rds of my current car and had the same size brakes, along with track biased suspension.
LexSport said:
Unfortunately I tend to need to understand something before it fully sinks in rather than just taking it as gospel (part of the reason why I was rather unimpressed with Robb Gravett's UCC course, but that's another story).
Nothing wrong with that. Unless you're a natural like Jimmy Clark, it helps to understand the why as well as the how.
Although it's quite a hard read, Piero Taruffi's book "The Technique Of Motor Racing" really explains the physics in detail. Taruffi was a legendary cross-War driver, and the book was perhaps the first to scientifically explain the concept of the racing line. It has been reprinted, and is a good starting point, as well as an interesting insight into the old styles.
Agree with that. Taruffi's book is one of the very best. IMHO there's nothing new ...
along with Stewart's 'Techniques', Paul Frere's 'Competition Driver', Senna's something handbook and Denis Jenkinson's 'The Racing Driver'.
I always thought CCombe not nice to race on. Spent so much time in the air; cars don't handle in the air.
Caterhams don't do grip do they? They do handling, but not grip.
along with Stewart's 'Techniques', Paul Frere's 'Competition Driver', Senna's something handbook and Denis Jenkinson's 'The Racing Driver'.
I always thought CCombe not nice to race on. Spent so much time in the air; cars don't handle in the air.
Caterhams don't do grip do they? They do handling, but not grip.
Edited by ph123 on Tuesday 31st October 17:48
GreenV8S said:
Alex said:
An instructor once told me to "NEVER accelerate into a corner". If you are able to accelerate before the apex, your entry speed was too slow.
Most cars are at their most stable under gentle acceleration and accelerating gently into the corners is usually recommended.
This has always been my understanding. Its a matter of degree, though. An instructor recently pointed out to me that my idea of gentle acceleration to stabilise the car and his idea were different. He wanted me to be putting a lot less gas on. I tried it. I got quicker. So I am currently revisiting my usual circuits and trying to carry more speed in and use less gas up to the corner. I am definitely getting some more speed out of it: although it has been amusingly hair-raising from time to time.
You know. One day. If I really keep practicing. I may actually be able to drive a bit. Not anywhere near that yet though...
You're probably well past this sort of obvious idea, but have you tried hanging on to higher gears? I used to be dead keen on screaming through nicely in the power band with loads of throttle authority and the back tyres on the ragged edge, then have to grab a gear almost as soon as I'd clipped the curb on the way out. Hanging on to a higher gear is *much* less fun but a lot quicker and easier (which makes it quicker again). I'm also a strong advocate of a late apex slow-in/fast-out approach both for road driving and out and out performance in a powerful rwd car, maximising the exit speed is more important than maximising the minimum speed if you see what I mean.
Don said:
gridgway said:
mmm-five said:
Totally depends on the corner. For instance you've got Folly at Castle Coombe which is basically a 'kink' when you're doing 80mph, but becomes a scary bend when doing 120mph - however in both instances you are accelerating fully from the previous corner
I'm guessing that the OP meant in corners where your entry speed would be too high unless reduced by braking.
mmm-five said:
...up to Avon Rise where you are braking, turning, braking.
Surely a mis-type...er..turning and braking, not sure what the first braking was for!!
Graham
Balls the size of melons!
Actually its going to depend on the car isn't it? In my car there is absolutely no way I could lose enough speed after going over the bump at the top of Avon Rise to then actually make Quarry... So I brake going up Avon Rise and get fourth, turn across the track towards the entry for Quarry, go over the bump without braking (it all gets a big loose otherwise), and then brake in a straight line towards the entry whilst getting third.
Yes indeed, the Caterham Roadsport racers on ACB10s in dry weather could do it up Avon Rise in 6th on full chat, lifting just before the turn left to approach quarry and then find just enough room to hang on the brakes and get to third before turning in! In means that after the turn at folly you are not really going straight anywhere until that tiny bit of tarmac aiming for the lights into Quarry. Great for spectators, terrifying for novice racers like me!
I got a puncture there in practice and went off hitting the tyres on the left at quarry - eek!
Graham
Edited by gridgway on Tuesday 31st October 19:07
[quote=Don]
Castle Combe is no fun at all in the wet. Not enough run off - anywhere. The strong likelihood of coming a cropper somewhere near something hard tends to curb the exuberance of the occasion. Fun in the wet? You need Bedford for that...
quote]
I did an extremely wet day there in my R500 a few years ago and that was good fun as it was really really slippery and speeds were very low.
Otherwise it's nasty!
Graham
Castle Combe is no fun at all in the wet. Not enough run off - anywhere. The strong likelihood of coming a cropper somewhere near something hard tends to curb the exuberance of the occasion. Fun in the wet? You need Bedford for that...
quote]
I did an extremely wet day there in my R500 a few years ago and that was good fun as it was really really slippery and speeds were very low.
Otherwise it's nasty!
Graham
combemarshal said:
AtomicRex said:
mmm-five said:
Totally depends on the corner. For instance you've got Folly at Castle Coombe which is basically a 'kink' when you're doing 80mph, but becomes a scary bend when doing 120mph - however in both instances you are accelerating fully from the previous corner up to Avon Rise where you are braking, turning, braking.
Try this at 150mph
You too!!!!!
Then with your eyes shut?
Dose the Mazda pull 150 there?
I know Keith murray took a Marshal for a blast round the track on the Audi day, 152!!
It does indeed pull over 150...we were seeing 143 through folly up avon rise on the strokes day in the rain! Well in between the flames
. Next year it will be even faster as we should have the brakes fixed!! As for braking through the kink before quarry: its not the most ideal situation for a fast lap but good for blocking an annoying fezza
With regards to unsettling the car, I haven't once had the car feel out of sorts when trail braking through the bend. It is difficult to get the balance between speed through folly and not screwing up the speed into Quarry
I think one thing that is missing in this thread is the balance of the car. I used to teach people to get on the power, when on the bikes, as soon as they released the brakes. I follow a similar tack with the car, and so start balancing the car with the power well before the apex slowly winding on the power.
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