Nurburgring & Insurance

[mrmr96]

Fireblade69 said:

Yeah, that's never going to have any grey areas in it is it? :-)

Ha-ha!! It doesn't have to be grey, dude! Just phone them up and ask. If they refuse get them to explain why and prove to you that they can refuse. If they prove they have a right to refuse ring cover then at least you found out before hand. If they can't prove it then get it in writing that they will cover you.

I've said it twice, someone else has said it once, you've agreed with it. Please just put us out of our misery and phone them up and post back here with their response!!!

:-)

[Fireblade69]

I might not just for a laugh

[Fireblade69]

Right, first response from the broker:

"The Certificate of Motor Insurance excludes use for racing or speed-tesing and in addition to this page 50 of the policy booklet under section H excludes use on a racetrack, circuit or prepared course. I have spoken to xxx and they have advised they are not happy the cover you whilst on the Nordschleife."

I have asked for them to let me know where that is in the policy and told them that it's not a race track, course, not speed testing etc etc.

[mrmr96]

Fireblade69 said:

Right, first response from the broker:

"The Certificate of Motor Insurance excludes use for racing or speed-tesing and in addition to this page 50 of the policy booklet under section H excludes use on a racetrack, circuit or prepared course. I have spoken to xxx and they have advised they are not happy the cover you whilst on the Nordschleife."

I have asked for them to let me know where that is in the policy and told them that it's not a race track, course, not speed testing etc etc.

Good work sir. There will be a great number of people interested in the outcome of this I think. Myself certainly included.

[Penguinracer]

Barring a ruling from the Ombudsman upheld in the upper courts, we all really need to be buying additional insurance from specialist insurers to cover TF days. Yes that's an expensive option, but trackdays are expensive anyway. I did a TF day back in '06 through Circuitdays (no association other than as a one-time client)but they no longer run them due to overcrowding, accident rates & the insurance issues. Instead, they now hire the 'Ring for private track days. They report that you can get in as many laps in a private day as you could in a TF weekend back in '06/'07 (ok of course they'd say that), 3rd party cover is included & the cost difference has narrowed due to a single lap ticket going up to 22 Euros a lap & 4 laps - 75 euros, 8 laps - 145 euros, 15 laps - 250 euros & 25 laps - 390 euros. Also on a private day you have use of the main straight & don't have to stop each lap. It seems that the nature of TF days has changed markedly over the last few years.

[Olivera]

Fireblade69 said:

Right, first response from the broker:

"The Certificate of Motor Insurance excludes use for racing or speed-tesing and in addition to this page 50 of the policy booklet under section H excludes use on a racetrack, circuit or prepared course. I have spoken to xxx and they have advised they are not happy the cover you whilst on the Nordschleife."

I have asked for them to let me know where that is in the policy and told them that it's not a race track, course, not speed testing etc etc.

That is not quite correct though is it? Despite what your broker and insurance company might say, they MUST pay out any 3rd party claims on the Nordschleife under EU law, regardless if it is excluded either verbally or in the policy. Ergo you can legally drive on the Nordschleife. However, since it is specifically excluded on your policy, your insurers can seek to recoup the 3rd party costs they have paid out from you.

Edited by Olivera on Friday 18th June 17:59

[Fireblade69]

Yeah, but 900 wingwangs for the three day trip is rather steep and that's not including insurance on the car. Not to mention that on a TF session, I stand half a chance of actually overtaking someone :-)

Maybe next year though.

[edh]

Penguinracer said:

Barring a ruling from the Ombudsman upheld in the upper courts, we all really need to be buying additional insurance from specialist insurers to cover TF days.

Not true.
1. There are still some insurers who provide cover
2. I was not aware of anyone providing additional insurance to cover third party risk.

[tertius]

Olivera said:

Fireblade69 said:

Right, first response from the broker:

"The Certificate of Motor Insurance excludes use for racing or speed-tesing and in addition to this page 50 of the policy booklet under section H excludes use on a racetrack, circuit or prepared course. I have spoken to xxx and they have advised they are not happy the cover you whilst on the Nordschleife."

I have asked for them to let me know where that is in the policy and told them that it's not a race track, course, not speed testing etc etc.

That is not quite correct though is it? Despite what your broker and insurance company might say, they MUST pay out any 3rd party claims on the Nordschleife under EU law, regardless if it is excluded either verbally or in the policy. Ergo you can legally drive on the Nordschleife. However, since it is specifically excluded on your policy, your insurers can seek to recoup the 3rd party costs they have paid out from you.

Edited by Olivera on Friday 18th June 17:59

I thought that was quite clear from the thread so far.

The point of the exercise the OP was entering into seemed to be to get the insurers to actually say that this is what they would do and on what basis they would do it. Or not of course. When they realised how ridiculous this would sound.

[Fireblade69]

I mean really, how hard is it? All I want is some cover to mitigate the risk with 3rd party claims. I'm not wanting fully comp and I'm not going to risk my life by launching it onto it's roof at Brunchen on purpose. The established risk of me driving, (1 accident in 20 years and that was some prick driving into me on the M4 and no points on my license since '96 - and I ride a Fireblade as well), and all I want is for them to cover 3rd party in the the same way they would if I were to drive into a Ferrari garage and lunch a 599FXX by accidently pressing the loud pedal. In fact, surely the risk is reduced at the Nordschleife as it is properly controlled, unlike the M sodding 2 gitting 5.

3rd party coverage for the Nordschleife, (without making me sell the house to pay for recovered costs), please Mr Insurer

[Fireblade69]

I've responded to the broker:

"The policy exclusions are not clear and are contrary, as mentioned earlier, to the legal classification of the Nordschleife as defined within European law. Please clarify this with xxx.

I think you’ll find that clarification is key here so we would need a definitive statement from the insurers as to why it is excluded if that is the case so that we can then ask for further clarification from the insurance ombudsman if necessary.

As our broker, I expect you to act in our interests here."

Had to add the last line as they sounded decidedly as if they couldn't give a st. The reason for using a broker is so that I can field these sort of questions to them and they can go and find out. Being my broker I would expect them to argue for me, not the insurers. Might as well go online and get it cheaper if this is the sort of service they offer.

[Diablos-666]

I'm quiet interested in this thread as I've just recently bought a TVR and plan to go to the Ring later this year.

I'm prepared to pay for specialist "track day" cover but have no idea who does it and how much it actually costs.

As I would pay for additional insurance, if I crashed would the insurers cover 3rd party costs as well as damage to my car? i.e I wouldn't have to pay for track closures, recovery from track, damage to the barriers etc..

Sorry to hijack this thread but didn't want to start yet another Nurburgring insurance question thread.

[tertius]

Diablos-666 said:

I'm quiet interested in this thread as I've just recently bought a TVR and plan to go to the Ring later this year.

I'm prepared to pay for specialist "track day" cover but have no idea who does it and how much it actually costs.

As I would pay for additional insurance, if I crashed would the insurers cover 3rd party costs as well as damage to my car? i.e I wouldn't have to pay for track closures, recovery from track, damage to the barriers etc..

Sorry to hijack this thread but didn't want to start yet another Nurburgring insurance question thread.

If you have a TVR then your best bet is to insure through Manning who include 3rd party cover for TF days and first party cover only for ATDO organised track days (which for clarity are two entirely different things) as part of their specialist Porsche/TVR policy. Third party cover should include all the things you list except, I assume, recovery as that is recovering your own (first party) property, and of course damage to your own car as that would require fully comprehensive insurance to be in place.

You can buy additional first party cover from someone like MORIS.

[Diablos-666]

Well I'm pretty sure mannings wouldn't insure me when I enquired about getting normal insurance cover, I didn't have the relavant RWD experience required.

I'm insured with MSM so I suppose the obvious thing to do is ask them first.

As long as the insurance covered my costs plus any 3rd party costs then recovery wouldn't really worry me. Some of those repair costs you read about from people crashing at the ring are proper scary

I'm not going until September and itis with an organised tour, not sure if the track is open just for tours on the weekend I go, if it's open to the public then I'm sure insurance will be quite difficult.

How much have people paid for specialist track day insurance then. Just want to know if I should expect to pay £100-£300 or if it's £1000+

[Fireblade69]

Diablos-666 said:

I'm quiet interested in this thread as I've just recently bought a TVR and plan to go to the Ring later this year.

I'm prepared to pay for specialist "track day" cover but have no idea who does it and how much it actually costs.

As I would pay for additional insurance, if I crashed would the insurers cover 3rd party costs as well as damage to my car? i.e I wouldn't have to pay for track closures, recovery from track, damage to the barriers etc..

Sorry to hijack this thread but didn't want to start yet another Nurburgring insurance question thread.

If you've got a TVR I'd concentrate my efforts on getting some good European breakdown cover!

But seriously, a friend of mine that came on one of our trips in 2008 took his VXR8 and his insurance for the DAY was around £500 and that only covered his 3rd party liability and his car, no track furniture was included in that so he would have had to pay for Armco, marshalls and closures etc and that's not cheap at one and a half large an hour for closures.

Trackday insurance for TF days at the ring is not going to be cheap though, the 3rd party liability kicks in there. On a closed circuit Nordschleife day like the Circuit Days 700, 3rd party liability doesn't apply, you can crash into whoever you like and it's tough-titty. Not sure about the circuit damage though, one assumes that CD take liability for that in the event of an off.

For my crappy old Golf Mk4 turbo at Bedford GT a couple of years ago, it was £60 for the day with £1500 excess. Now get this, the excess on track day insurance is a bit strange, if the damage to the car is say, £1400 you get nowt. If the damage is £1700, you get £1700. Weird. And some policies only have a total write off clause so won't pay out if the car can be economically repaired. (Lighter fluid and matches in the glovebox are your friends there )

No response from the slack mother-loving broker, and I know he works Saturdays.

Edited by Fireblade69 on Saturday 19th June 21:31

[tertius]

Fireblade69 said:

Trackday insurance for TF days at the ring is not going to be cheap though, the 3rd party liability kicks in there. On a closed circuit Nordschleife day like the Circuit Days 700, 3rd party liability doesn't apply, you can crash into whoever you like and it's tough-titty. Not sure about the circuit damage though, one assumes that CD take liability for that in the event of an off.

This is a contradiction in terms - TF is not a track day so track day insurance is not appropriate or relevant.

With regard to the Circuit Days 700, as far as I know they are piggy backing off the Destination Nurburgring organised day - http://www.destination-nurburgring.com/

This is a track day organised according to UK / ATDO rules so there is no third party liability, however, at the day they ran in April, which I was on, you would be billed for any circuit damage.

[Fireblade69]

tertius said:

Fireblade69 said:

Trackday insurance for TF days at the ring is not going to be cheap though, the 3rd party liability kicks in there. On a closed circuit Nordschleife day like the Circuit Days 700, 3rd party liability doesn't apply, you can crash into whoever you like and it's tough-titty. Not sure about the circuit damage though, one assumes that CD take liability for that in the event of an off.

This is a contradiction in terms - TF is not a track day so track day insurance is not appropriate or relevant.

With regard to the Circuit Days 700, as far as I know they are piggy backing off the Destination Nurburgring organised day - http://www.destination-nurburgring.com/

This is a track day organised according to UK / ATDO rules so there is no third party liability, however, at the day they ran in April, which I was on, you would be billed for any circuit damage.

Stop being picky, you know what was meant.

[tertius]

Fireblade69 said:

tertius said:

Fireblade69 said:

Trackday insurance for TF days at the ring is not going to be cheap though, the 3rd party liability kicks in there. On a closed circuit Nordschleife day like the Circuit Days 700, 3rd party liability doesn't apply, you can crash into whoever you like and it's tough-titty. Not sure about the circuit damage though, one assumes that CD take liability for that in the event of an off.

This is a contradiction in terms - TF is not a track day so track day insurance is not appropriate or relevant.

With regard to the Circuit Days 700, as far as I know they are piggy backing off the Destination Nurburgring organised day - http://www.destination-nurburgring.com/

This is a track day organised according to UK / ATDO rules so there is no third party liability, however, at the day they ran in April, which I was on, you would be billed for any circuit damage.

Stop being picky, you know what was meant.

It was pedantic, but there is so much confusion in this topic that I think you have to be absolutely precise, otherwise we risk perpetuating the (unfortunately widely held) view that driving the Nordschleife on a public day is akin to a track day.

Look at the advice in EVO this month as an example ...

[Diablos-666]

I must admit I'm bloody confused???

So is it better to go on a public day or when it's open to just tours?

Have I got this right...

On a public day it's not classed as a race track

On a tour day it is classed as a track?

If it's classed as a track then your not liable for 3rd party costs? So if someone crashes into me would I be covered by either my insurance or their insurance?

It's a mine field this

[tertius]

Diablos-666 said:

I must admit I'm bloody confused???

So is it better to go on a public day or when it's open to just tours?

Have I got this right...

On a public day it's not classed as a race track

On a tour day it is classed as a track?

If it's classed as a track then your not liable for 3rd party costs? So if someone crashes into me would I be covered by either my insurance or their insurance?

It's a mine field this

My understanding is this:

On a public day (touristenfahrten or TF) it is open to the public, is classed as a public road and normal road laws apply - road legal vehicles only, mixture of cars/bikes/vans/etc., keep right, overtake on the left only, obey the speed limits (where they exist), minimum of third party insurance required

On a track day it is closed to the public and road traffic laws do not apply. The actual requirements of the day will vary according to the organiser - e.g. many German track day organisers do require third party insurance, whereas UK organisers usually do not.

Assuming it is a track day organised to UK norms, then if someone crashes into you, then you can expect only to be covered if you have track day cover for your car.

I'm assuming by "tour day" you mean "track day"?