the ring, insurance questions
Discussion
bqf said:
I think some folks might be over-egging the pudding a little in terms of the consequences of an incident. Fluid spills, for example, are almost impossible to attribute to single vehicles in law, so linking a fluid spill from your vehicle to a bike pile-up is close to impossible.
Don't drive like a buffoon, check your mirrors and avoid it when it's raining - it'll all be fine.
I was there over the last few weeks. The other Friday, we came towards Lauda Links to see frantically waving people at the side of the track, we slowed immediately and still almost had an off on the oil on the track. Just around the corner we found a minimum of 4 cars and 4 bikes involved in a huge accident (I couldn`t count exactly as we were trying not to hit anything). There was significant car to car and car to bike contact. This was at 17:20. The track never re-opened that evening.Don't drive like a buffoon, check your mirrors and avoid it when it's raining - it'll all be fine.
Just round the corner, parked up on the exit of Bergwerk was a Blue M3. The trail of oil that started just after ex-muhle and caused the huge pile-up and track closure ended under this car...
He could have been the safest driver you`d ever see, but that simple oil leak caused a lot of damage. I don`t know what level of injuries were sustained.
The worst accident I`ve come across in TF and a very sobering example to me of what could very easily happen.
Another at Brunchen a few days later. Loads of bikes down, oil started between Brunchen I and II, ended after Eis Kurve where the Porsche that dropped the fluid had parked up when the engine stopped due to no oil....
I'd second that about the oil, it's still possible to link to a car as there are so many people and photographers on a tourist day that you are likely to have witnesses. A biker friend of mine came off on the Ring and was hospitalised due to a 911 dropping oil plus two other German local bikers came off, one who was heavily injured. The marshall saw it leaking, a photographer had pictures and the Police identified the car. The 911 driver is being pursued by the insurance companies.
On an organised track day I believe that would be a c'est la vie moment, but on TF days at the Ring your liability is exposed.
On an organised track day I believe that would be a c'est la vie moment, but on TF days at the Ring your liability is exposed.
ridds said:
Renewed my insurance today and it appears a lot of insurers are now specificly highlighting that Nurburgring TF days are not covered at all.
I'm covered for trackdays there but not TF.
Sounds like the whole industry is doing it.
THe broker did stumble a bit when he said that It's a toll road that goes no-where and I said well so is the M25 but they'll cover me there....
TF days are done for me until I can find an insurer, even then I suspect it will be a lot more than Ii want to pay.
What insurance covers you for track days?I'm covered for trackdays there but not TF.
Sounds like the whole industry is doing it.
THe broker did stumble a bit when he said that It's a toll road that goes no-where and I said well so is the M25 but they'll cover me there....
TF days are done for me until I can find an insurer, even then I suspect it will be a lot more than Ii want to pay.
I have just had two quotes of £420 (£4000 approx excess) and £500 (£5000 excess) for one day with £50k car value.
But what was interesting is one company with very helpful and nice to talk to agent that offered a great deal. They insure you as a regular insurance company for the whole year at a cost of between £1200 and £1800 depending on annual mileage. Importantly i live in good/safe rural postcode with >9 year no claims and park in garage/driveway. The excess is £750.
But here's the good bit... They include FOUR trackdays in the price and the cost for additional ones is 0.5% of the car value so on the above example, it would be £250 per day.
The excess on the trackday is still 10% rather than the £750
Shame i have already got insurance running until September because i think i woudl take this.
I gut feel is to go once to Bedford without insurance. See if i like it and certainly dont push the car at all. If i really think i'm gonna love this sport/hobby and do it again and again, then i will want to drive faster and push the car and so i will get insurance and probably do it against the main policy.
The only downside i can see to doing things this way is that if i did make a trackday claim, it would mean my no claims would be affected whereas if the two are separate, then i would not need to worry about losing no claims.
Any thooughts?
But what was interesting is one company with very helpful and nice to talk to agent that offered a great deal. They insure you as a regular insurance company for the whole year at a cost of between £1200 and £1800 depending on annual mileage. Importantly i live in good/safe rural postcode with >9 year no claims and park in garage/driveway. The excess is £750.
But here's the good bit... They include FOUR trackdays in the price and the cost for additional ones is 0.5% of the car value so on the above example, it would be £250 per day.
The excess on the trackday is still 10% rather than the £750
Shame i have already got insurance running until September because i think i woudl take this.
I gut feel is to go once to Bedford without insurance. See if i like it and certainly dont push the car at all. If i really think i'm gonna love this sport/hobby and do it again and again, then i will want to drive faster and push the car and so i will get insurance and probably do it against the main policy.
The only downside i can see to doing things this way is that if i did make a trackday claim, it would mean my no claims would be affected whereas if the two are separate, then i would not need to worry about losing no claims.
Any thooughts?
Personally, my view is if I can't afford the loss of the car I shouldn't take it on the track day.
Odd way of looking at it and it's not so I can drive like a pillock, it's more to do with never knowing what will happen. You could be hit by someone else, spin off on spilt fluids etc.
When I have taken my Cerb on track I have driven like a bit of a girl to be fair. If I wanted to drive a little harder I'd take something cheaper.
Odd way of looking at it and it's not so I can drive like a pillock, it's more to do with never knowing what will happen. You could be hit by someone else, spin off on spilt fluids etc.
When I have taken my Cerb on track I have driven like a bit of a girl to be fair. If I wanted to drive a little harder I'd take something cheaper.
[quote=Dw1]I'd second that about the oil, it's still possible to link to a car as there are so many people and photographers on a tourist day that you are likely to have witnesses. A biker friend of mine came off on the Ring and was hospitalised due to a 911 dropping oil plus two other German local bikers came off, one who was heavily injured. The marshall saw it leaking, a photographer had pictures and the Police identified the car. The 911 driver is being pursued by the insurance companies.
quote]The Police also swab any car they think may have been involved and can then match the sample to that found on the track ...if you manage to get your car off the track that is !
quote]The Police also swab any car they think may have been involved and can then match the sample to that found on the track ...if you manage to get your car off the track that is !
ridds said:
Odd way of looking at it and it's not so I can drive like a pillock, it's more to do with never knowing what will happen. You could be hit by someone else, spin off on spilt fluids etc.
I think all track day insurance only covers your own car - if you are in an accident that is entirely not your fault, you cannot claim off the at fault driver. You also sign a disclaimer at the start of the track day to accept that as a condition of the track day too. No insurance is very very risky.Overall,would it not be far easier to book a day with RSR? Car/Insurance and so on is all taken care of. There is a wide choice of price/cars to choose from plus you benefit from correct instruction. Its somewhere to enjoy and remember,not something that brings nothing but regret. It may mean that some might have to save up a bit,but ultimately,you'll not regret having started to learn a very long circuit properly.
Smoothness is the key,look far enough ahead,even looking through the corners,look where you will be exiting,not dead in front of you!Try sales@rsrnurburg.com
Smoothness is the key,look far enough ahead,even looking through the corners,look where you will be exiting,not dead in front of you!Try sales@rsrnurburg.com
I've been considering a trip to the 'Ring but have often wondered about the following idea:
In this situation, is it safe to assume you're insured? Of course, if you phone them up they could well say "Oh no, we don't cover the Nurburgring", but if you keep schtum and there's nothing in the Ts&Cs, is it not enough to have read them and found no mention of the ring? What's the legal angle here?
The Crack Fox said:
On this topic, I've considered myself insured on TF days if I'm not specifically 'excluded' on my insurance policy. One of my current 3 motor's policy does not exclude the 'ring (or 'toll roads' etc).
Although I know most of the major brokers have caught on about TF days at the ring, let's say for argument's sake that you read the full Ts&Cs for your insurance policy from beginning to end, and it makes no mention of the ring by name or any other "umbrella" phrases such as "derestricted toll roads" or "selected exclusions". Essentially, if there's no inference that there's anywhere that you're not covered.In this situation, is it safe to assume you're insured? Of course, if you phone them up they could well say "Oh no, we don't cover the Nurburgring", but if you keep schtum and there's nothing in the Ts&Cs, is it not enough to have read them and found no mention of the ring? What's the legal angle here?
davetibbs said:
is it not enough to have read them and found no mention of the ring? What's the legal angle here?
In essence no. What you consider to not mention the 'ring, they will. There will be something in there which they believe covers it. Or if they are happy for you to drive on it then contacting them and asking them directly would not be a problem.To me the phrase "prepared course", did not apply to the 'ring any more than racetrack or airfield. To me a prepared course would be something like some cones in a carpark, or an off road trial course with "gates". To the insurer it means the 'ring apparently.
I guess what I'm saying is unless you wrote it and know exactly what you consider each vague clause to mean, then you cannot trust that you understand it enough to make that judgement. So the only way to actually know, is to specifically ask.
In respect of insurance, alongside so many other aspects, the Ring was/is a victim of it's own popularity.
10-15 years ago, there certainly were instances of people successfully claiming on UK policies for Ring incidents. However, now that every TF day is completely mobbed by Brits crowing about how they beat Clarkson's time, (and to be fair, long before that), all mainstream UK insurers have more than caught on to this risk and excluded it one way or another.
Yes, you may still be able to buy specilaist insurance, but the last time any of my mates did so, it was 5 years ago on a 2001 E39 M5 and still cost several hundred quid for one day.
As many posters on this thread alone have done, you can try and wriggle all you like, but without the aforementioned specialist policy, you ain't insured. Period. Frankly, deal with it. You're not going to change it, you're not suddenly going to find a meerkat who hasn't heard of the Ring and covers you fully comp for your Ultima on your Nissan Micra policy, and you WILL pay if it goes tits up. I know - I've watched people handing over their credit card with a very grey tinge to their complexion more than once.
10-15 years ago, there certainly were instances of people successfully claiming on UK policies for Ring incidents. However, now that every TF day is completely mobbed by Brits crowing about how they beat Clarkson's time, (and to be fair, long before that), all mainstream UK insurers have more than caught on to this risk and excluded it one way or another.
Yes, you may still be able to buy specilaist insurance, but the last time any of my mates did so, it was 5 years ago on a 2001 E39 M5 and still cost several hundred quid for one day.
As many posters on this thread alone have done, you can try and wriggle all you like, but without the aforementioned specialist policy, you ain't insured. Period. Frankly, deal with it. You're not going to change it, you're not suddenly going to find a meerkat who hasn't heard of the Ring and covers you fully comp for your Ultima on your Nissan Micra policy, and you WILL pay if it goes tits up. I know - I've watched people handing over their credit card with a very grey tinge to their complexion more than once.
Thanks for the clarification. I've since found out that insurance companies are not legally obliged to state everything that they do not cover in Ts&Cs as well.
What about German insurance? Presumably Germans using the 'ring are covered by their own policy. Is it therefore possible to take out a policy with a German insurance company in your own name, on a UK vehicle?
What about German insurance? Presumably Germans using the 'ring are covered by their own policy. Is it therefore possible to take out a policy with a German insurance company in your own name, on a UK vehicle?
davetibbs said:
Thanks for the clarification. I've since found out that insurance companies are not legally obliged to state everything that they do not cover in Ts&Cs as well.
What about German insurance? Presumably Germans using the 'ring are covered by their own policy. Is it therefore possible to take out a policy with a German insurance company in your own name, on a UK vehicle?
German cars are covered, yes.What about German insurance? Presumably Germans using the 'ring are covered by their own policy. Is it therefore possible to take out a policy with a German insurance company in your own name, on a UK vehicle?
However, insurers won't typically insure cars registered to another country so the car will need to be registered in Germany, and you need proof of residence to achieve this.
C8PPO said:
As many posters on this thread alone have done, you can try and wriggle all you like, but without the aforementioned specialist policy, [b]you ain't insured. Period..
the reality is more complex. your insurer will always pay the 3rd party claim and you'll then reimburse the insurer. i've never dealt with a case in which the TP wasn't paid by the insurer.
Being "insured" and the insurer being liable to pay 3rd party claims are not the same thing.
If someone pinches your car from the Tiergarten car park, then the insurer will have to pay 3rd party claims whether they are heading for Munich or doing tourist laps. Doesn't mean they are insured.
If someone pinches your car from the Tiergarten car park, then the insurer will have to pay 3rd party claims whether they are heading for Munich or doing tourist laps. Doesn't mean they are insured.
Noger said:
Being "insured" and the insurer being liable to pay 3rd party claims are not the same thing.
If someone pinches your car from the Tiergarten car park, then the insurer will have to pay 3rd party claims whether they are heading for Munich or doing tourist laps. Doesn't mean they are insured.
A completely different situation. Not a very helpful example.If someone pinches your car from the Tiergarten car park, then the insurer will have to pay 3rd party claims whether they are heading for Munich or doing tourist laps. Doesn't mean they are insured.
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