Working hours in the catering trade
Discussion
Last September, my 20 year old son took a live-in job working as a Commis Chef at a fairly prestigeous 'Gastro-Pub' in Cheshire. For this he is paid a salary of around £14K, which seems to be the going rate and OK enough for a young lad with no expenses to speak of. The thing is, for that he is working an 80-85 hour week (over 5 days), with no proper breaks at all during the day. He starts at 9AM and 12.30 AM seems to be an early finish for him (2x 2AM's and 2x 3AM's last week) and he pretty much eats on his feet.
I know the catering trade is all about long hours generally, but is this scenario even legal from a H.R and pay perspective? It seems to me that even on minimum wage working those hours, he should be pulling well over £20K, although the real issue is about how long his working day is.
I'm all for promoting the notion of hard work and all that, but wonder if I should be standing by and letting this continue... He's never been one to complain about much, but I can't help feel his employers are extracting the urine here.
What do you think?
I know the catering trade is all about long hours generally, but is this scenario even legal from a H.R and pay perspective? It seems to me that even on minimum wage working those hours, he should be pulling well over £20K, although the real issue is about how long his working day is.
I'm all for promoting the notion of hard work and all that, but wonder if I should be standing by and letting this continue... He's never been one to complain about much, but I can't help feel his employers are extracting the urine here.
What do you think?
Those are hefty hours and unfair.
But...legally, if he signed out of the working time directive, there might not be a lot you can do. These hours aren't abnormal in this industry, but I'm surpised he's not getting a break between services at least. However, if he's really serious about a career as a top flight chef, then I'm ashamed to say it's fairly common, if he won't work those hours there are plenty of guys will.
It could be an idea to learn what he can and move on at the first available opportunity, if it's a big name place then it will give him a great stepping stone to other jobs.
You also mentioned it's a live in position. Is the 14k gross, or net, and how are living expenses deducted? I've never worked with a waged chef, you'd go bankrupt within weeks! I'm not saying the hours are fair, but there may be a bigger picture to consider. At least cookery is not ripe with unpaid interships in the way of fashion or journalism seem to be.
But...legally, if he signed out of the working time directive, there might not be a lot you can do. These hours aren't abnormal in this industry, but I'm surpised he's not getting a break between services at least. However, if he's really serious about a career as a top flight chef, then I'm ashamed to say it's fairly common, if he won't work those hours there are plenty of guys will.
It could be an idea to learn what he can and move on at the first available opportunity, if it's a big name place then it will give him a great stepping stone to other jobs.
You also mentioned it's a live in position. Is the 14k gross, or net, and how are living expenses deducted? I've never worked with a waged chef, you'd go bankrupt within weeks! I'm not saying the hours are fair, but there may be a bigger picture to consider. At least cookery is not ripe with unpaid interships in the way of fashion or journalism seem to be.
once.....
As a "food and beverage" manager in a nice Hotel, I worked 10-16 hours a day, 7 days a week, for 14 months.
I was paid for those hours.
If I owned/ran a successful pub I would expect similar hours.
It really is the "nature-of-the-beast" in the hospitality industry.
Being able to work for an hourly rate, can be advantageous in the short to medium term. Its never sustainable. Keep an eye on his drinking too.... hic......
He will in some meanial way be reccompenced for his additional working hours.
Expirence and confidence is everything in his line of work.
As a "food and beverage" manager in a nice Hotel, I worked 10-16 hours a day, 7 days a week, for 14 months.
I was paid for those hours.
If I owned/ran a successful pub I would expect similar hours.
It really is the "nature-of-the-beast" in the hospitality industry.
Being able to work for an hourly rate, can be advantageous in the short to medium term. Its never sustainable. Keep an eye on his drinking too.... hic......
He will in some meanial way be reccompenced for his additional working hours.
Expirence and confidence is everything in his line of work.
Edited by GingerWizard on Wednesday 29th June 17:54
BJG1 said:
80-85 sounds a bit over the top, but no breaks and 60+ hours a week isn't exactly unusual. If that's the career he wants he's going to have to get used to it until he works his way up.
80-85 over 5 days sounds normal for the type of place.Hard work, but it can have great rewards.
As far as I know when I looked it up before, for this trade they were not in the exceptions bit of the Working Time Regulations, so in theory he should be having his quota of 11 hours break in between shifts and the usual break every 4.15 hours or whatever it is... but it's catering...
If it's anything from past experience, you don't usually get a written contract with pubs
If he wants to stay in that trade then I would say 60 odd hour week would be fair; paid per hour though
If he wants to be in catering but is not fussed what type, see if he can get into contract catering, nice hours, easy money & very employee friendly.
If it's anything from past experience, you don't usually get a written contract with pubs
If he wants to stay in that trade then I would say 60 odd hour week would be fair; paid per hour though
If he wants to be in catering but is not fussed what type, see if he can get into contract catering, nice hours, easy money & very employee friendly.
Edited by missdiane on Wednesday 29th June 18:15
Thanks for that everyone. It's as I thought it might be then. I take the point that he would do well to absorb what he can whilst he's working under a decent head chef (a Gordon Ramsay protege') and stick it out for a while then move on.
The 14K is gross and the accomodation allowance (cheap I suppose, at £135 PCM) is taken at source along with the tax. Those are killer hours though.. Understandable for someone firing up their own business sure... but it asks a lot of an employee, when they are not even being paid by the hour. I'm sure he'd laugh in the face of what you or I would call 'long hours'!
The 14K is gross and the accomodation allowance (cheap I suppose, at £135 PCM) is taken at source along with the tax. Those are killer hours though.. Understandable for someone firing up their own business sure... but it asks a lot of an employee, when they are not even being paid by the hour. I'm sure he'd laugh in the face of what you or I would call 'long hours'!
k all really.jonah35 said:
for £14k?
he should quit, many 9-5 jobs even for someone with not much experience on around £20k
that's scandalous in my opinion
google the working time directive
Yep, £14k that really is terrible, I mean he has £1620 a year in rent to pay, will be able to eat pretty much for free and no other overheads. He'll be really broke with that fully disposable income of around £750 a month. he should quit, many 9-5 jobs even for someone with not much experience on around £20k
that's scandalous in my opinion
google the working time directive
Oh and in my experience if he has a contract it will have a clause getting him to sign out of the Euro working time bit.
In a certain kind of kitchen this is normal, not scandalous. At one point i worked 105 hours a week, every week, for months. It makes my current 60hour weeks seem like a piece of piss.
Shame on You!!!
You are saying that's normal no way!
I'm a General manager running a Hotel & restaurants.
I've run business in France, Europe and now in Uk for more than 7 years.
And all those concept of yours, that asking a young lade of 18 YO doing 80 -85 hours is normal, is rubbish.
No It isn"t right, as a MAnager you should know that this guys productivity is actually 40 to 45% of what he should do.
Because He do to much hours.
No matter you ask him to sign the working time directive. This in regard of the law can't be exploited. And This directive hasn't got a purpose to be use on a regulars based. This directive should only be use to help business during a short increase of activity.
80 to 85 hours get a second chef.
No one as the right to paie anyone under the UK Minimum wages. So you take 14K a year and divided that by 80 hours. This guys how much does he earn. Peanuts,
SHAME ON YOU!!!
You don't respect your youngster! That's why we can't find any one in this trade anymore, and need after to use a massive immigration, because of business like that and mentality like that.
Yes you Need to work hard, in this trade, yes it's all about commitment, but what??
Working hard is showing that during you shift for a job given you doing it and you are productive learn quick, multitask and able to cover the activity at anytime given by preempting the situation. All my guys can do any section, any time all well train and you know what, I don't need to ask them anything they do it with respect and without answer.I can leave my business some night I know that I can trust them. I know that if a custumer pass the door at 9H30 pm them will be happy and please to take the table. Because you I'm fare with them, they are fare with me.
We are in the 21st century catering should treat the staff has partner of you business, if you respect them they will be involve in you business, cheers for you business care about it, breath for it, and love it.
So I would write a grievance letter right now, asking my time either to be paid by hours, or extra hours to be compensate with days off paid.
And trust me they will make a move. Any manager will make one. (unless is an idiot) Starting thinking that it's not normal to ask anyone to do that, also maybe asking his own management skill, alway balance healthy business and productivity.
Now I should give few point.
If this young guy have an accident after 80 + hours of work what happened legally for the company? Legal compensation. staff tired other worked?? Break and time rest not respected (that may hurt in you balance sheet if you lose that case in court)
If this company lost this young guy she will have to hire anyway 2 guys 2X40 hours or they can do with one untrained so in this matter why if they can do with a one untrained, they can do by reducing this lade hours.
Also if you want to keep your staff make a move, any staff will run away after a year doing like this. Stop talking rubbish and look at the UK catering staff turnover this policy of exploration has beed going for long now. And look at the result staff changing all the time job because mainly of hours.
And what you spending your saving on agency staff or fee.
"To this lade" Make a move, write a letter, ask them to be paid for your hours, also from today record any hours, and ask your manager (chef) to sign each week, acknowledge the work done. If you have sign working time directive send a letter recorded asking to obtain a review this one and make it match the uk national average and you contract too. And also on you day off go on to citizen advise they will tell you the same as I, but as long as you got your face their and they record you name, actually you have showed your face, they are now aware of the problem, and you can if you want referee your advisor to your boss.
And to finish go to those agency staff they will find you something else, and you can tell to you boss that if that doesn't change you are leaving him.
And to all of you remember ..
You can replace a position, but you 'll never ever replace a person.
A person is unique individual and they are the one making your business.
And to all of you thinking that in this trade we can't do this because financially we will die, how come I've done it. And I can't say who I'm but I have more than one restaurant, and this never have been an issue. "Manager" means Managing people, not only sit in an office and drinking coffee. Use your brain look at you productivity break it down,look at your trading hours look at your menu "to much prep" look at you style of service or set up to complicated, look at you cleaning time "to long" what can you do to make it better faster easier.
Don't look alway for the cheapest. Do what you are suppose to be. A MANAGER not a slave master.
And to all of you staff never forget if you pay peanuts you get monkey.
Kind regards. Dave
You are saying that's normal no way!
I'm a General manager running a Hotel & restaurants.
I've run business in France, Europe and now in Uk for more than 7 years.
And all those concept of yours, that asking a young lade of 18 YO doing 80 -85 hours is normal, is rubbish.
No It isn"t right, as a MAnager you should know that this guys productivity is actually 40 to 45% of what he should do.
Because He do to much hours.
No matter you ask him to sign the working time directive. This in regard of the law can't be exploited. And This directive hasn't got a purpose to be use on a regulars based. This directive should only be use to help business during a short increase of activity.
80 to 85 hours get a second chef.
No one as the right to paie anyone under the UK Minimum wages. So you take 14K a year and divided that by 80 hours. This guys how much does he earn. Peanuts,
SHAME ON YOU!!!
You don't respect your youngster! That's why we can't find any one in this trade anymore, and need after to use a massive immigration, because of business like that and mentality like that.
Yes you Need to work hard, in this trade, yes it's all about commitment, but what??
Working hard is showing that during you shift for a job given you doing it and you are productive learn quick, multitask and able to cover the activity at anytime given by preempting the situation. All my guys can do any section, any time all well train and you know what, I don't need to ask them anything they do it with respect and without answer.I can leave my business some night I know that I can trust them. I know that if a custumer pass the door at 9H30 pm them will be happy and please to take the table. Because you I'm fare with them, they are fare with me.
We are in the 21st century catering should treat the staff has partner of you business, if you respect them they will be involve in you business, cheers for you business care about it, breath for it, and love it.
So I would write a grievance letter right now, asking my time either to be paid by hours, or extra hours to be compensate with days off paid.
And trust me they will make a move. Any manager will make one. (unless is an idiot) Starting thinking that it's not normal to ask anyone to do that, also maybe asking his own management skill, alway balance healthy business and productivity.
Now I should give few point.
If this young guy have an accident after 80 + hours of work what happened legally for the company? Legal compensation. staff tired other worked?? Break and time rest not respected (that may hurt in you balance sheet if you lose that case in court)
If this company lost this young guy she will have to hire anyway 2 guys 2X40 hours or they can do with one untrained so in this matter why if they can do with a one untrained, they can do by reducing this lade hours.
Also if you want to keep your staff make a move, any staff will run away after a year doing like this. Stop talking rubbish and look at the UK catering staff turnover this policy of exploration has beed going for long now. And look at the result staff changing all the time job because mainly of hours.
And what you spending your saving on agency staff or fee.
"To this lade" Make a move, write a letter, ask them to be paid for your hours, also from today record any hours, and ask your manager (chef) to sign each week, acknowledge the work done. If you have sign working time directive send a letter recorded asking to obtain a review this one and make it match the uk national average and you contract too. And also on you day off go on to citizen advise they will tell you the same as I, but as long as you got your face their and they record you name, actually you have showed your face, they are now aware of the problem, and you can if you want referee your advisor to your boss.
And to finish go to those agency staff they will find you something else, and you can tell to you boss that if that doesn't change you are leaving him.
And to all of you remember ..
You can replace a position, but you 'll never ever replace a person.
A person is unique individual and they are the one making your business.
And to all of you thinking that in this trade we can't do this because financially we will die, how come I've done it. And I can't say who I'm but I have more than one restaurant, and this never have been an issue. "Manager" means Managing people, not only sit in an office and drinking coffee. Use your brain look at you productivity break it down,look at your trading hours look at your menu "to much prep" look at you style of service or set up to complicated, look at you cleaning time "to long" what can you do to make it better faster easier.
Don't look alway for the cheapest. Do what you are suppose to be. A MANAGER not a slave master.
And to all of you staff never forget if you pay peanuts you get monkey.
Kind regards. Dave
Edited by davpod on Monday 2nd January 11:22
The employer is breaking the Law if they are not ensuring that he is being paid for the hours that he does based upon his normal working hours, being on salary doesn't excuse them from this. He should be being paid approx £1500 for 4x80hr weeks, which when he turns 21 will be £1900approx.
He is also probably not receiving the minimum 11 hours rest between shifts as per the working time directives - and this isn't something he can opt out of, the only opt-out is for >48 hour weeks.
Put simply, if he has an accident as a result of tiredness, even out of work, his employer will likely be liable. Personally I'd be letting HMRC know about the minimum wage thing, they can investigate the employer and cause the employer to pay back wages also.
He is also probably not receiving the minimum 11 hours rest between shifts as per the working time directives - and this isn't something he can opt out of, the only opt-out is for >48 hour weeks.
Put simply, if he has an accident as a result of tiredness, even out of work, his employer will likely be liable. Personally I'd be letting HMRC know about the minimum wage thing, they can investigate the employer and cause the employer to pay back wages also.
Omg where are you based!
I won't to come and work for you!
I am an assistant manager and have 4 years experience and am 19 my partners a sous chef and has 7 years experience he is 21. The majority of our training is at 2Aa Rossette so we like to think we know what we're doing :-)
But I had exactly the same problem. As an assistant manager at 2Aa Rossette I was getting 17k net but then was charged 40 a week accommodation and had to pay for my own food etc. They then started me from day one on a 14 days straight 12 hour shifts before giving me a day off then rotating me back on the following day for another 9 days straight. I left shortly after due to this and the fact I was doing over 100 hours in one hit with no breaks just one day after the other for such a sh*t salary!!
It's funny how I was doing the books and they were netting well over 10k a day because the food was so expensive and there was a big hotel upstairs yet they couldn't afford to pay me as much as the local pub 10 minuets away.
Catering is a discussing business to be in, as assistant I make sure no one does More then 8 hours a shift and that your never on a close if your on breakfast the next morning. I tend to give myself the worst shifts so my staff are happy, and won't to work for me. Respect has to be earnt. This is only when I can though GMs tend to be reluctant to give full control so even the nicest manager can't stop bad shifts.
Also I would say best for him to move to a place where the GM has been a chef as they tend to have more of a idea the stress and work that goes into a service. I trained as a pastry chef wich has always been helpful because I know after a service you need time to go find your brain and put it back in your skull.
Best of luck to everyone
<3
I won't to come and work for you!
I am an assistant manager and have 4 years experience and am 19 my partners a sous chef and has 7 years experience he is 21. The majority of our training is at 2Aa Rossette so we like to think we know what we're doing :-)
But I had exactly the same problem. As an assistant manager at 2Aa Rossette I was getting 17k net but then was charged 40 a week accommodation and had to pay for my own food etc. They then started me from day one on a 14 days straight 12 hour shifts before giving me a day off then rotating me back on the following day for another 9 days straight. I left shortly after due to this and the fact I was doing over 100 hours in one hit with no breaks just one day after the other for such a sh*t salary!!
It's funny how I was doing the books and they were netting well over 10k a day because the food was so expensive and there was a big hotel upstairs yet they couldn't afford to pay me as much as the local pub 10 minuets away.
Catering is a discussing business to be in, as assistant I make sure no one does More then 8 hours a shift and that your never on a close if your on breakfast the next morning. I tend to give myself the worst shifts so my staff are happy, and won't to work for me. Respect has to be earnt. This is only when I can though GMs tend to be reluctant to give full control so even the nicest manager can't stop bad shifts.
Also I would say best for him to move to a place where the GM has been a chef as they tend to have more of a idea the stress and work that goes into a service. I trained as a pastry chef wich has always been helpful because I know after a service you need time to go find your brain and put it back in your skull.
Best of luck to everyone
<3
Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff