Engineering graduate job interview

[Strachan]

Keep at it, best of luck you sound like a good candidate.
I will PM you some companies I know of in the central belt to look at to get experience.

[Otispunkmeyer]

DJRC said:

Does that really bother you? Seriously? Are you that insecure you need to care?

The "Im not respected" whinge. And? Neither are lawyers, bankers, accountants, estate agents, etc, etc. Shrug your shoulders and jog on.

That wasn't a whinge... You'll know what my whinging is like eventually though, I havent been round here long enough. It doesn't bother me, it just makes me chuckle because it's the same response every single time.

I don't really care what people think most of the time. Just wasted energy isn't it.

[Otispunkmeyer]

GroundEffect said:

Well, I went for the interview on Tuesday. It was a fairly typical assessment day (group tests in the morning and competency interview in the afternoon). I scored the highest out of everyone in the Group work and was in the 96th percentile for the online tests I had done prior to the event. For the interview itself my feedback was that I was highly logical, very focused and determined in what I wanted to do with my career, was articulate and good at explaining what I meant and showed great initiative...


And I didn't get the bloody job! Basically the HR girl told me the recruiters ultimately didn't choose me for either of the roles as they thought I was too much of a 'leader' and would be better suited to more specialist roles than the mechanical grad, such as an aerodynamicist. However, the issue I have with that is that a graduate doesn't just fall in to those roles - you need to work up to those roles through the typical avenues. I am completely in-between a rock and a hard-place now. I have been doing interviews for 2 years now (since I finished my undergrad and during my post-grad) and I am getting exhausted by it all. If they were coming back telling me I was st, then fair enough there's something I could work on but in EVERY occasion I've reached the (literal) final hurdle only to fall in some highly ambiguous way.

Losing hope.

Tough break! But don't give up, that's the worst thing you can do. Just gotta keep slogging. If what they say is true you could maybe apply to some grad jobs or direct entry grad roles that offer a management rather than technical path? I know at Alstom they gave you a choice of going down the technical expert route or down the managerial route. If you have good leadership qualities that might be a bet?

Sounds like they just wanted average grads to come in a make up the numbers and be happy. Not someone who is either going to end up moving up the ladder fast or leaving prematurely because they are not progressing at the rate they would like. That would leave them back at square one.

[GroundEffect]

I did get the impression they were looking for sheeple. I was just willing to forego that as it appeared to be in every other respect my dream role. When I wrote that other stuff it was only a few hours after I received the decision and was still really deflated. Today on my drive home I re-wrote my CV in its entirety (from the passenger seat, obviously) accentuating the stuff that their feedback highlighted.

I applied to Alstom last year and got no where - I will apply again this year. The issue is I actually WANT a technical role. I am just, apparently, quite good as a leader. The reason I'm a good leader is that I saw it as a weakness and worked to improve it - volunteering myself as group leaders even when it was very uncomfortable for me etc. I was really flabbergasted that they saw my own strive to be as good as I can as something negative. I really doubt you'll find someone more passionate than me for engineering.

Their actual excuse for not hiring me was "You have such focus and initiative that you may not follow your line manager's wishes and want to work on something you see more suitable".

A) I can do what I'm told to do by a superior
B) What if I'm right? Why is it a BAD thing to be right?

[GroundEffect]

Strachan said:

Keep at it, best of luck you sound like a good candidate.
I will PM you some companies I know of in the central belt to look at to get experience.

That would be fantastic. Thank you.

[Otispunkmeyer]

GroundEffect said:

I did get the impression they were looking for sheeple. I was just willing to forego that as it appeared to be in every other respect my dream role. When I wrote that other stuff it was only a few hours after I received the decision and was still really deflated. Today on my drive home I re-wrote my CV in its entirety (from the passenger seat, obviously) accentuating the stuff that their feedback highlighted.

I applied to Alstom last year and got no where - I will apply again this year. The issue is I actually WANT a technical role. I am just, apparently, quite good as a leader. The reason I'm a good leader is that I saw it as a weakness and worked to improve it - volunteering myself as group leaders even when it was very uncomfortable for me etc. I was really flabbergasted that they saw my own strive to be as good as I can as something negative. I really doubt you'll find someone more passionate than me for engineering.

Their actual excuse for not hiring me was "You have such focus and initiative that you may not follow your line manager's wishes and want to work on something you see more suitable".

A) I can do what I'm told to do by a superior
B) What if I'm right? Why is it a BAD thing to be right?

Meh, sounds like they just want some one who will sit and do as they're told. Either that or they see you as someone they wont easily be able to meld into their corporate image/thinking. I would imagine a lot of grad schemes to be like that because they want to get you through the training first before letting you loose. Very risk averse are engineering companies, especially big ones. Can't have people coming in and rocking the boat right away.

I applied to Alstom in Rugby and got in no sweat. I had to really because I'd had a job lined up with Aker in Middlesborough and then that fell through thanks to the economic troubles we're still dealing with. That left me way past the grad job openings period and thanks to Alstom scrapping their usual hiring scheme for the same reasons and letting individual departments do their own hiring an Alstom grad job popped up later than the rest. It was the only job going within reasonable distance. So I took it. I lasted a year.

In hindsight it was stupid to do that... I just desperately wanted a job and ended up in a situation I hated. It pays to research!!!. I ended up in retrofits which I just found boring. Its pretty stagnant technology wise and all they do is take old, existing designs and make them fit in specific power stations. Each department in retrofits has its own little jigsaw piece to take care of and it pretty much just goes like that... Concepts put out the brief design and estimated figures, Thermo do the steam path, MI do the expansion calcs etc etc....if I'd of ended up in R&D like I hoped (we had no control, apply to 1 scheme get put in Retro or R&D... bizarrely on the same site, the services team had completely separate hiring scheme!!) I would probably still be there.

For me Engineering isn't as enjoyable if Im not working on something new or not getting my hands dirty building things...hence why I want to go down the R&D route and hence why I am now doing a PhD. Stuff thats been done, is done, its out there, its mostly understood. I like dabbling in the newer stuff, the stuff that isn't quite well understood, the stuff that no ones tried. Because that leaves me to sit at my desk, twiddle my hair, doodle, experiment and figure it out.

From what I could tell retrofits was a slow but steady place to be, apart from the project management area which got a bit hectic. R&D was much better and Power Service seemed ace as it had a lot of younger guys and they took care of site management and things like that, real hands on stuff looking at the wider picture. Alstom Transport seemed like a far away entity, I believe when I joined they took on just one grad and had him bunny hopping all over the country. He loved it though.

I would imagine their grad scheme might be improved now. When I started the HR on site in rugby basically had to start from scratch and develop their own system for the grads to work on. But I would say try go for R&D or Power Service if you can or even IMG (not sure what it stood for but these guys were the dudes that help manage retrofits on site so their job was of the firefighting variety usually). And if you get in make sure you get a placement abroad!!! and not at a UK powerstation!



Question.... Have you thought about a PhD??? Might be something right up your street if you're like me and like to work on things no one or very few people have touched upon. You've been applying for jobs and not getting anywhere. How about doing a PhD... 3 years (ish) and when you come out the economy should have picked up and the PhD will of opened yet more doors to you (more doors than it closes). You do get paid decently to do them as well, providing you approach the right institutions. My supervisor for example has been able to secure huge amounts of funding for his projects so getting equipment and materials to actually do your research isn't a problem. He also gets memos from companies asking directly for any PhD graduates they can have to fill vacancies. Very useful!

[zollburgers]

GroundEffect said:

Their actual excuse for not hiring me was "You have such focus and initiative that you may not follow your line manager's wishes and want to work on something you see more suitable".

A) I can do what I'm told to do by a superior
B) What if I'm right? Why is it a BAD thing to be right?

I'm an engineer and I manage others. It is very frustrating to set clear objectives and agree on a programme of work only to have the person think they know better and spend their time doing useless work.

I'm not saying you will do this and only a bad manager will have this happen to them more than a few times from the same person.

The question I would ask myself is "why did they get that impression"? Is it because the people who interviewed you were short-sighted or is it other reasons?

You have no experience but appear very opinionated (as I am). Are you certain that you are right and others are wrong?

I'm not trying to piss on your bonfire, if you have something to offer you will get a job and if you are right then you will excel.

[GroundEffect]

Otispunkmeyer said:

Question.... Have you thought about a PhD??? Might be something right up your street if you're like me and like to work on things no one or very few people have touched upon. You've been applying for jobs and not getting anywhere. How about doing a PhD... 3 years (ish) and when you come out the economy should have picked up and the PhD will of opened yet more doors to you (more doors than it closes). You do get paid decently to do them as well, providing you approach the right institutions. My supervisor for example has been able to secure huge amounts of funding for his projects so getting equipment and materials to actually do your research isn't a problem. He also gets memos from companies asking directly for any PhD graduates they can have to fill vacancies. Very useful!

I considered a PhD but to be honest, my exam results are only going to put off a project supervisor. I have always struggled at exams compared with group or continually assessed work. A lot of that was probably poor studying technique but I've just hated them all my life. I know I can understand the work but I bottle exams. Also, I'm not sure if it's for me - yes, I love working on new stuff and it sounds like you are a version of me a few years down the line but I've spoken to others and they've told me not to do a PhD unless I'm REALLY into the subject. And I don't even have the faintest idea what I'd do with it - or if anything I would find interesting would have much funding.

[GroundEffect]

zollburgers said:

I'm an engineer and I manage others. It is very frustrating to set clear objectives and agree on a programme of work only to have the person think they know better and spend their time doing useless work.

I'm not saying you will do this and only a bad manager will have this happen to them more than a few times from the same person.

The question I would ask myself is "why did they get that impression"? Is it because the people who interviewed you were short-sighted or is it other reasons?

You have no experience but appear very opinionated (as I am). Are you certain that you are right and others are wrong?

I'm not trying to piss on your bonfire, if you have something to offer you will get a job and if you are right then you will excel.

I've never had a problem with authority (as long as they aren't belligerent). I think where they got the idea from is that I showed how geared towards leadership I am; they seem to have got an impression that it means I cannot work within a group...and that's just not true. Within the group tasks at the assessment day I scored highest within the group tasks! How can that mean anything but I am good at it? And they also said I'm very logical...which is a great thing for working in groups - you can dissect ideas and such to find the most appropriate solution.

It appears that I was very close to getting the position but fell on the cutting room floor in the end. It's damn infuriating, especially with the feedback I've received doesn't give me anything to work on. And I'm even more down-trodden that I don't have any other interviews lined up and it being mid-summer, all the grads schemes are closing up for this year. I really don't want to lose another year of my career (I'm 23 now...I really need to get a move on).

[shirt]

from reading your posts after the interview, i get the impression that either:

a] you think you're better than you actually are and so come across as smug or a "pick me!" kind of guy at interview.

b] there is some other aspect of your personality which the hiring managers do not want in their office.

the reasons you've been given for rejection are fob-offs and quite opposite to what you'd expect from a hi-tech engineering outfit. purely and simply, your face/attitude/personality didn't fit.

[Fume troll]

I've never met an engineering company that didn't like it's graduate intake to show leadership potential.

Cheers,

FT.

[Alex]

The reason they give you is rarely the real reason.

[GroundEffect]

shirt said:

from reading your posts after the interview, i get the impression that either:

a] you think you're better than you actually are and so come across as smug or a "pick me!" kind of guy at interview.

b] there is some other aspect of your personality which the hiring managers do not want in their office.

the reasons you've been given for rejection are fob-offs and quite opposite to what you'd expect from a hi-tech engineering outfit. purely and simply, your face/attitude/personality didn't fit.

Perhaps. I know I was trying pretty hard and it probably did come across as a bit arrogant but it does come from an actual desire for the role and my exasperation at not having one at this point.

But anyway, I am back to where I was 2 years ago. Don't know how much more my mind can take of it, but I'll keep pushing.

A question to others who graduated and moved in to grad schemes: how many assessment days/interviews did you go through before landing a role? I've now had 8.

Edited by GroundEffect on Wednesday 20th July 14:47

Edited by GroundEffect on Wednesday 20th July 14:47

[Cyder]

GroundEffect said:

shirt said:

from reading your posts after the interview, i get the impression that either:

a] you think you're better than you actually are and so come across as smug or a "pick me!" kind of guy at interview.

b] there is some other aspect of your personality which the hiring managers do not want in their office.

the reasons you've been given for rejection are fob-offs and quite opposite to what you'd expect from a hi-tech engineering outfit. purely and simply, your face/attitude/personality didn't fit.

Perhaps. I know I was trying pretty hard and it probably did come across as a bit arrogant but it does come from an actual desire for the role and my exasperation at not having one at this point.

But anyway, I am back to where I was 2 years ago. Don't know how much more my mind can take of it, but I'll keep pushing.

Without wishing to blow my own trumpet...

I graduated last year with a BEng in Aerospace Engineering.

I applied for Grad schemes and was invited for two assessment centres. I went into both
with a 'no bullst' attitude, didn't over exaggerate myself of 'big myself up'.

My poor A level grades were picked up on in the interviews and I explained that it was because I was 18 and spent too much time in the pub, but learnt my lesson and got a 2.1 at Uni.

When I didn't know the answer to the questions I admitted it straight away.

I must have done something right as I was offered both jobs and took one of them!

Moral to my story is be yourself and don't show off. The interviewers will smell bullst a mile off.

ETA, in answer to your question, they were the only two I attended, after starting the job I was invited to 2-3 more iirc.

[GroundEffect]

So it looks like me trying to hard has ruined two years of my career. Bugger

[Cyder]

Just chill and be cool maaaaannnn.

Being serious for a minute, good luck, loads of guys I know are struggling to find jobs at the moment. It's got to be st spending a load of money to get a degree and then not being able to apply it. Hope you get something sorted.

[shirt]

GroundEffect said:

shirt said:

from reading your posts after the interview, i get the impression that either:

a] you think you're better than you actually are and so come across as smug or a "pick me!" kind of guy at interview.

b] there is some other aspect of your personality which the hiring managers do not want in their office.

the reasons you've been given for rejection are fob-offs and quite opposite to what you'd expect from a hi-tech engineering outfit. purely and simply, your face/attitude/personality didn't fit.

Perhaps. I know I was trying pretty hard and it probably did come across as a bit arrogant but it does come from an actual desire for the role and my exasperation at not having one at this point.

maybe trying too hard? it shows y'know. also one of the worst things you can do at these things is have an air about you that you're the bees knees. fine if you are, but any weaknesses just make people think you're a prat. it's this kind of graduate who get ripped to shreds by the shop floor.

But anyway, I am back to where I was 2 years ago. Don't know how much more my mind can take of it, but I'll keep pushing.

relax. you aren't where you are 2 yrs ago as you are now more highly qualified. this is a good hand if you play it well

A question to others who graduated and moved in to grad schemes: how many assessment days/interviews did you go through before landing a role? I've now had 8.

personally, none. i was offered a position during my MEng placement and accepted it once i realised it may be the only one coming my way. i had guys from my course ringing me 2-3yrs later asking if there were jobs going (they thought i was working in aero. industry) as they were only interested in aero. jobs and had been largely unemployed because of it. both of my most succesful mates started in nothingey, general engineering roles but are now hold senior commercial roles with major aircraft manufacturers

Edited by GroundEffect on Wednesday 20th July 14:47

Edited by GroundEffect on Wednesday 20th July 14:47

[hyperblue]

Cyder said:

My poor A level grades were picked up on in the interviews and I explained that it was because I was 18 and spent too much time in the pub, but learnt my lesson and got a 2.1 at Uni.

Join the club! I had poor A levels (for the same reasons as you), but worked hard at Uni (when I needed to) and ended up with a 2.1 and a Masters. I found it very frustrating that some grad schemes still require a certain number of UCAS points though!

[DJRC]

Basically everything Shirt has said.

Take a hint OP, 2 chaps buried deep in the industry are telling you this.

[GroundEffect]

Well, thank you for the insights. I will take away what has been said and try and fix my personality...although I have no idea how I am supposed to come across more nonchalant about it.