Commodity Trading

[Condi]

With a 2.2 degree.....

In short, I screwed up the final year of my degree, no real reason, I wasn't ill, homeless or whatever, I simply didnt try hard enough when it mattered. So no "cards" to play as it were there. But I really want to get into commodity trading - agricultural products or metals. All the grad schemes want 2.1, unless anyone knows differently, so beside emailing HR with a pleading email asking them to let me apply (the rest of my CV is pretty good - decent A levels, top 5 uni, plenty of (sort of) relevant work experience, been travelling etc) does anyone know of any other ways into the job? Thinking companies like Viterra, Cargill, Frontier, or more paper based roles, such as trading houses in London.

Can anyone offer any suggestions or ideas? Are there other roles from which it would be easy to transfer, and which might be easier to get on with 2.2?

[rog007]

It's not a sector I'm hugely familiar with, but general advice in similar situations leans towards applying for any role in the industry just to get inside it, then work your magic towards Boardroom dominance from the inside. Another would be to start a relevant Masters immediately in order to overshadow your first degree and demonstrate your commitment to lifelong learning. Just make sure this time you get a Distinction! Good luck!

[NewNameNeeded]

Firstly what is your degree in Condi? It would help to be something highly desirable - something very strongly maths based.

Secondly you want to go in to trading - can you demonstrate having successfully traded in your own account?

Both the above may go a small way to redressing the poor result with your degree.

Finally consider lesser roles than trading roles such as mid office or back office support roles. You stand more of a chance of getting one of these junior roles, and likely no chance of stepping in to a trading role.

Edited by NewNameNeeded on Tuesday 2nd August 07:18

[lazystudent]

Which University / course?

[SpeedFreakDave]

You may find that a commodity broking role a touch easier to get into if you have more relevant experience. Also, the old way to get on a commodity trading role was to apply for a role on the operational side of the business and then work hard at perhaps becoming a desk analyst and then trading. Operational side means the logistics of the commodity, so we are talking scheduling physical deliveries and operational support for the physical trade action of the desk.

Big question is - why commodities, what is your reason for the interest in the product. What are you drivers. Tell me and I'll let you know if I think you are moving in the right direction.


Goodluck

[NewNameNeeded]

SpeedFreakDave said:

You may find that a commodity broking role a touch easier to get into if you have more relevant experience. Also, the old way to get on a commodity trading role was to apply for a role on the operational side of the business and then work hard at perhaps becoming a desk analyst and then trading. Operational side means the logistics of the commodity, so we are talking scheduling physical deliveries and operational support for the physical trade action of the desk.

Big question is - why commodities, what is your reason for the interest in the product. What are you drivers. Tell me and I'll let you know if I think you are moving in the right direction.


Goodluck

What do you trade Dave? (just being nosey )

[SpeedFreakDave]

NewNameNeeded] said:

What do you trade Dave? (just being nosey )

Energy products.....so....Gas, Electricty, Carbon Emissions, Coal, Crude oil - mainly European.

Dave

[SpeedFreakDave]

NewNameNeeded said:

What do you trade Dave? (just being nosey )

And yourself?

[NewNameNeeded]

SpeedFreakDave said:

And yourself?

Have traded Uk Gas and Power in the past. In Oil now. More Upstream focussed these days but spent many years looking at market fundamentals and recommending trades in most clean products - LPG, naphtha, gasoline, distillates.

[SpeedFreakDave]

NewNameNeeded said:

Have traded Uk Gas and Power in the past. In Oil now. More Upstream focussed these days but spent many years looking at market fundamentals and recommending trades in most clean products - LPG, naphtha, gasoline, distillates.

I see, small world where do you work now then?

[NewNameNeeded]

SpeedFreakDave said:

I see, small world where do you work now then?

Small world indeed. Oil major in Canary Wharf - yourself?

[Condi]

rog007 said:

Another would be to start a relevant Masters immediately in order to overshadow your first degree and demonstrate your commitment to lifelong learning. Just make sure this time you get a Distinction! Good luck!

I would love to, but Student Finance wont pay for Masters degrees and I dont have the £20k or so it would cost to live for a year and pay tuition fees.

lazystudent said:

Which University / course?

NewNameNeeded said:

Firstly what is your degree in Condi? It would help to be something highly desirable - something very strongly maths based.

Secondly you want to go in to trading - can you demonstrate having successfully traded in your own account?

Degree is BSc Management Science from Warwick. Fairly maths based, in that it was a BSc rather than a BA and Warwick's MS is generally considered to be one of the most numerate management degrees out there.

Ive successfully traded shares, but only with comparative pocket money. £3k invested, cant remember exact return as I withdrew it over a period of time. Ive also been successful buying and selling boats while at school.

SpeedFreakDave said:

Big question is - why commodities, what is your reason for the interest in the product. What are you drivers. Tell me and I'll let you know if I think you are moving in the right direction.


Goodluck

Not sure why commodities really. Ive been involved in agriculture for a few years and it just seems more normal for me to work with a physical product rather than stocks and shares. I know what the market forces are and how they work, having had an industry view for the last 10 years. The actors in the market are people or companies I've dealt with, or heard of. I love trading and dealing with/understanding markets, but dont want to be in the stock market, would much rather stick to analysing an industry Ive been bought up with. More generally I like the fact that at the end the product has a use, and you can take delivery of it, rather than just being a piece of paper; it always has an intrinsic value - whereas shares are paper money until you sell them, and if everything goes very wrong there is absolutely no use for them.

Ok, that answer needs lots more thought, but the core of my reasoning is laid bare.

[rog007]

Condi said:

rog007 said:

Another would be to start a relevant Masters immediately in order to overshadow your first degree and demonstrate your commitment to lifelong learning. Just make sure this time you get a Distinction! Good luck!

I would love to, but Student Finance wont pay for Masters degrees and I dont have the £20k or so it would cost to live for a year and pay tuition fees.

I should have made myself more clearer, sorry; I was implying a part-time course, which can be completed in 3-5 years whilst you are still in full-time employment and earning. And whilst the price you quote is probably about right for Warwick, there are other providers out there who do not charge so much but who are nonetheless reputable organisations. And finally, there are still income streams available out there, although I admit getting harder to access, but not impossible. And if you are in full-time employment this should soften the impact, and if you're with a quality employer you may even get assistance from them. It can be done if it's really what you want!

[SpeedFreakDave]

Condi said:

Not sure why commodities really. Ive been involved in agriculture for a few years and it just seems more normal for me to work with a physical product rather than stocks and shares. I know what the market forces are and how they work, having had an industry view for the last 10 years. The actors in the market are people or companies I've dealt with, or heard of. I love trading and dealing with/understanding markets, but dont want to be in the stock market, would much rather stick to analysing an industry Ive been bought up with. More generally I like the fact that at the end the product has a use, and you can take delivery of it, rather than just being a piece of paper; it always has an intrinsic value - whereas shares are paper money until you sell them, and if everything goes very wrong there is absolutely no use for them.

Ok, that answer needs lots more thought, but the core of my reasoning is laid bare.

Ok, sounds good. If you get an interview be sure to be clear that you are focused on commods, not that you are not sure why you like it. You reasons are good reasons, at the end of the day it is important to be interested in the market fundamentals and dynamics. When you say you know what the market forces are and how they work, make sure you do. Nothing worse than when someone thinks they understand the market and has only understood say 10% of it - I am not shooting you down, what I am saying is it may be better to take a stance where you say you are interested in the market drivers immensely and know about xyz but you are also super keen to learn so much more. I've been in commodities for 10 years, every week I learn something new. The market changes. Plus you mention you want to work on things with physical drivers and are less interested in paper products. Most commodity markets are now seeing correlation with FX which in turn can move around on so many factors - equities, debt, government policy, earthquakes - you name it - macro is very important now - so don't assume it is all about a local market - just trying to help here and give so guidance. So you will need to understand about the drivers here of things that on the surface may look like they have nothing to do with commodities.

You say you love trading, what have you traded and how successful? When i was starting out after uni I used to read the FT everyday and generally took an interest in all the economics and had an opinion on what would happen on various international events - this was an early sign that I was suited to trading. I was also good and thinking of solutions and money making schemes.

P.S I seen share prices go to zero but I have seen commodity prices go negative so anything can go to st in this world these days!!! Just keep an open mind.

Maybe you should try get some work experience? I still think the ops route is wise.

Good luck

[Condi]

rog007 said:

I should have made myself more clearer, sorry; I was implying a part-time course, which can be completed in 3-5 years whilst you are still in full-time employment and earning. And whilst the price you quote is probably about right for Warwick, there are other providers out there who do not charge so much but who are nonetheless reputable organisations. And finally, there are still income streams available out there, although I admit getting harder to access, but not impossible. And if you are in full-time employment this should soften the impact, and if you're with a quality employer you may even get assistance from them. It can be done if it's really what you want!

Could do, bit I lack the "quality employer" at the moment. In a more general sense I lack "employer"! I tend to do a bit of travelling, a bit of working, bit of travelling etc, so a steady income is a bit slim. This is going to change shortly though, fed up of not having a steady job and regular hours.

It looks like if its something I seriously want to do then Im going to need to enter at a lower level - thus negating the point of having a degree at all. Hmmm.

[Sebo]

Condi said:

Could do, bit I lack the "quality employer" at the moment. In a more general sense I lack "employer"! I tend to do a bit of travelling, a bit of working, bit of travelling etc, so a steady income is a bit slim. This is going to change shortly though, fed up of not having a steady job and regular hours.

It looks like if its something I seriously want to do then Im going to need to enter at a lower level - thus negating the point of having a degree at all. Hmmm.

Consider that having a degree may get you these "lower level" roles though. If you didn't have a degree, maybe you wouldn't even get those roles.

With the market as it is, are there any friends and family that can put a good word in for you and get you a week or two of unpaid work on a desk?

[NewNameNeeded]

Condi said:

It looks like if its something I seriously want to do then Im going to need to enter at a lower level - thus negating the point of having a degree at all. Hmmm.

Most of the places I know of would require a degree for these lower level jobs.

[Condi]

SpeedFreakDave said:

Ok, sounds good. If you get an interview be sure to be clear that you are focused on commods, not that you are not sure why you like it. You reasons are good reasons, at the end of the day it is important to be interested in the market fundamentals and dynamics. When you say you know what the market forces are and how they work, make sure you do. Nothing worse than when someone thinks they understand the market and has only understood say 10% of it - I am not shooting you down, what I am saying is it may be better to take a stance where you say you are interested in the market drivers immensely and know about xyz but you are also super keen to learn so much more. I've been in commodities for 10 years, every week I learn something new. The market changes. Plus you mention you want to work on things with physical drivers and are less interested in paper products. Most commodity markets are now seeing correlation with FX which in turn can move around on so many factors - equities, debt, government policy, earthquakes - you name it - macro is very important now - so don't assume it is all about a local market - just trying to help here and give so guidance. So you will need to understand about the drivers here of things that on the surface may look like they have nothing to do with commodities.

You say you love trading, what have you traded and how successful? When i was starting out after uni I used to read the FT everyday and generally took an interest in all the economics and had an opinion on what would happen on various international events - this was an early sign that I was suited to trading. I was also good and thinking of solutions and money making schemes.

P.S I seen share prices go to zero but I have seen commodity prices go negative so anything can go to st in this world these days!!! Just keep an open mind.

Maybe you should try get some work experience? I still think the ops route is wise.

Good luck

Sorry, only just seen this. Not entirely sure how the hell I missed it first (and maybe second) time round, but anyway. Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I get that commodities are obviously affect by things beyond the immediate drivers, but as an answer to the question they were more relevant to commods rather than being rather general and applicable to every traded "thing" going.

As far as my trading background, Ive had a small dabble in shares. Some of which Ive traded on a short term basis, some of which Ive bought and sold in a more traditional sense. Some of which I lost money on, some of which I made money on. It was a very enjoyable thing to do during uni when I had the time to watch the markets and follow them far more closely than I do now. Before that I have bought and sold boats as a hobby. Im good at following the news and think that I have a lot of the fundamental personality and character traits which set me up for the job. If I have a weak point then its theoretical economics, or possibly economics in general, which I never really got on with.

Thanks for the advice, and can I ask what firms would you suggest as places to ask for work experience?