work/life balance
Discussion
Had a staff meeting last week, we were discussing upcoming jobs, one of them next week involves an overnight stay. I’ve arranged with a couple of mates to go to a concert outside company time, on the Friday evening of the same week, this has been planned for ~3 months now and I've entered it into my company outlook calender, I didn’t bother taking a holiday as I work 8-4 and the concert starts at 6:30. So I said to my boss can I not go away on the Thursday night as I don’t want to be late back on Friday, then he just went mental, saying how he’s putting his foot down over this and if there’s work to be done it has to be done. If I don’t go I’m going to face disciplinarily action.
I’m just wondering what are my rights here and what should I do? Does this mean I can never plan anything again outside company hours unless it’s on a weekend? I’ve read though my contract and it has the usual bit about hours being 8-4 but subject to change to suit operational requirements and some overnight stays are expected.
I’m just wondering what are my rights here and what should I do? Does this mean I can never plan anything again outside company hours unless it’s on a weekend? I’ve read though my contract and it has the usual bit about hours being 8-4 but subject to change to suit operational requirements and some overnight stays are expected.
rainagain said:
Had a staff meeting last week, we were discussing upcoming jobs, one of them next week involves an overnight stay. I’ve arranged with a couple of mates to go to a concert outside company time, on the Friday evening of the same week, this has been planned for ~3 months now and I've entered it into my company outlook calender, I didn’t bother taking a holiday as I work 8-4 and the concert starts at 6:30. So I said to my boss can I not go away on the Thursday night as I don’t want to be late back on Friday, then he just went mental, saying how he’s putting his foot down over this and if there’s work to be done it has to be done. If I don’t go I’m going to face disciplinarily action.
I’m just wondering what are my rights here and what should I do? Does this mean I can never plan anything again outside company hours unless it’s on a weekend? I’ve read though my contract and it has the usual bit about hours being 8-4 but subject to change to suit operational requirements and some overnight stays are expected.
When is the overnight stay? Thursday or Friday, not really clear.I’m just wondering what are my rights here and what should I do? Does this mean I can never plan anything again outside company hours unless it’s on a weekend? I’ve read though my contract and it has the usual bit about hours being 8-4 but subject to change to suit operational requirements and some overnight stays are expected.
Depends what your contract says.
I've been in a situation a couple of times where I've booked tickets for an event many months in advance, but then meetings with customers abroad have been organised that clash. I can usually influence meeting dates, and where I have a personal appointment, I try to make sure that it doesn't get affected. But when they do clash, I confirm with my manager that I can claim back the cost of the tickets from the company. That's been OK up to now.
I've been in a situation a couple of times where I've booked tickets for an event many months in advance, but then meetings with customers abroad have been organised that clash. I can usually influence meeting dates, and where I have a personal appointment, I try to make sure that it doesn't get affected. But when they do clash, I confirm with my manager that I can claim back the cost of the tickets from the company. That's been OK up to now.
It depends on the job, the circumstances and the salary.
If it's a £100k+ a year job then that sort of work comes with a professional expectation that work can take out some of your leisure time like this.
If it's a £20k a year job then tell them to get stuffed.
Assuming it's somewhere in between then you just need to decide where you stand on the matter.
Is the boss willing to fire you over it?
Are you willing to quit over it?
Is it a big company with a large HR department you can go to for off-the-record legal employment advice.
Or, is it a small company where the HR directors is the managers wife.
Generally speaking.
One takes the rough with the smooth and sometimes one has to work overnight or be away from home on a professional capacity.
However, if one has had something booked for several months then the company needs a damned good reason to ask an employee to break their commitment.
IMHO, it depends on how much you like the job.
I have worked for plenty of mental bosses and since I generally really liked the job and was paid enough, I had to sacrifice many evenings and weekends.
It would be a career killer in many places to pull out your contract and say, "I want to go to a concert".
Particularly given the current economy.
As far as I can tell, "working to rule" is pretty much limited to unionised workforces or those in SOME (but by no means all) public sector jobs.
Or jobs where you are paid by the hour.
Frankly, I would go back to your boss and eat a little humble pie.
Explain you were really looking forward to it, booked for ages, expensive etc... and say you thought that the timing of the project was flexible so would be no problem to keep that time free.
You want him on your side, no matter what, even if he is a mentalist.
So it turns out the project timing ISN'T flexible and of course you are 100% committed to doing the very best job for the client so you will drop everything and be there.
That's just the kind of team player you are.
Also, if you are getting flown about the country, it sounds like the expenses budget isn't small so they can compensate you at least for the price of the tickets.
Then you can sell them on eBay for a profit.
I have worked for plenty of mental bosses and since I generally really liked the job and was paid enough, I had to sacrifice many evenings and weekends.
It would be a career killer in many places to pull out your contract and say, "I want to go to a concert".
Particularly given the current economy.
As far as I can tell, "working to rule" is pretty much limited to unionised workforces or those in SOME (but by no means all) public sector jobs.
Or jobs where you are paid by the hour.
Frankly, I would go back to your boss and eat a little humble pie.
Explain you were really looking forward to it, booked for ages, expensive etc... and say you thought that the timing of the project was flexible so would be no problem to keep that time free.
You want him on your side, no matter what, even if he is a mentalist.
So it turns out the project timing ISN'T flexible and of course you are 100% committed to doing the very best job for the client so you will drop everything and be there.
That's just the kind of team player you are.
Also, if you are getting flown about the country, it sounds like the expenses budget isn't small so they can compensate you at least for the price of the tickets.
Then you can sell them on eBay for a profit.
I would disagree .
You are entitled to finish at your normal place of work at your normal finishing time .
It is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect anyone to spend hours of their own time returning from a remote location without payment for overtime/traveling time . Since overtime is normally optional , OP should be able to insist on being back to base for finishing time - but equally well might offer to work overtime the night before if need be to ensure the job is completed on time .
You are entitled to finish at your normal place of work at your normal finishing time .
It is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect anyone to spend hours of their own time returning from a remote location without payment for overtime/traveling time . Since overtime is normally optional , OP should be able to insist on being back to base for finishing time - but equally well might offer to work overtime the night before if need be to ensure the job is completed on time .
Pontoneer said:
I would disagree .
You are entitled to finish at your normal place of work at your normal finishing time .
It is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect anyone to spend hours of their own time returning from a remote location without payment for overtime/traveling time . Since overtime is normally optional , OP should be able to insist on being back to base for finishing time - but equally well might offer to work overtime the night before if need be to ensure the job is completed on time .
Admittedly I am guessing, but the OP may be on a salary with a contract and terms and conditions of employment including the possibility of working away from home on occasions.You are entitled to finish at your normal place of work at your normal finishing time .
It is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect anyone to spend hours of their own time returning from a remote location without payment for overtime/traveling time . Since overtime is normally optional , OP should be able to insist on being back to base for finishing time - but equally well might offer to work overtime the night before if need be to ensure the job is completed on time .
On that basis it is perfectly reasonable to spend hours of their own time returning from a remote location without payments. Millions of people do, as they are not paid by the hour. They are paid to carry out their duties, and if that involves travelling from one location to another then that's part of the job they signed up to, and get paid for.
I think there has to be some give and take - if he's had concert tickets booked for 3mths then he should be able to go to the concert.
I work for a company with office across Europe - try getting guys in the rest of Europe to do anything which interferes with normal finish time on Friday and normal start time on Monday. Absolutely no chance!
I work for a company with office across Europe - try getting guys in the rest of Europe to do anything which interferes with normal finish time on Friday and normal start time on Monday. Absolutely no chance!
Deva Link said:
I think there has to be some give and take - if he's had concert tickets booked for 3mths then he should be able to go to the concert.
I disagree.It is entirely circumstance dependent.
If he worked at Goldman Sachs and his boss had full discretion over his bonus, which would be substantially larger than his already healthy salary, then pulling out his contract and complaining could make it the most expensive concert trip since Van Halen found some brown M&Ms in their dressing room.
Bonus time is JUST around the corner and you choose NOW to p
s off the boss?Alternatively he is paid by the hour in a totally secure job where the boss has no influence on his career or pay.
In which case, bring on the Abba Tribute Band.
Snowboy said:
It depends on the job, the circumstances and the salary.
If it's a £100k+ a year job then that sort of work comes with a professional expectation that work can take out some of your leisure time like this.
If it's a £20k a year job then tell them to get stuffed.
No it doesn't. Try telling that to my RSM, you'd be a far braver man than most!! If it's a £100k+ a year job then that sort of work comes with a professional expectation that work can take out some of your leisure time like this.
If it's a £20k a year job then tell them to get stuffed.
bmw535i said:
No it doesn't. Try telling that to my RSM, you'd be a far braver man than most!!
I think it's fair to say the Army is slightly different to Civvy street. I mean, advance across the desert, then go "Oh no, that's my eight hours done, see ya guys" and drive back to base!!
Jasandjules said:
I think it's fair to say the Army is slightly different to Civvy street.
I mean, advance across the desert, then go "Oh no, that's my eight hours done, see ya guys" and drive back to base!!
There are some circumstances where it is possbile to negotiate working hours in the Army. However, the phrase "operational effectivness/requirements" is very very vague and can be used in almost any circumstance to make people work to the whim/requirement of superiors. I mean, advance across the desert, then go "Oh no, that's my eight hours done, see ya guys" and drive back to base!!
As it has this phrase in the OP's contract, I would suggest that he doesn't really have any recourse.
His salary should not have any direct effect on his loyalty to adhere to the contract/slash orders of his boss.
Very often there will also be a phrase in the contract to say that the needs of the establishment come first, followed closely by those of the individual.
Pontoneer said:
I would disagree .
You are entitled to finish at your normal place of work at your normal finishing time .
It is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect anyone to spend hours of their own time returning from a remote location without payment for overtime/traveling time . Since overtime is normally optional , OP should be able to insist on being back to base for finishing time - but equally well might offer to work overtime the night before if need be to ensure the job is completed on time .
This is bordering on hilarious. Entitled is a very strong word and you haven't read the OP's contract. You are entitled to finish at your normal place of work at your normal finishing time .
It is unreasonable and unrealistic to expect anyone to spend hours of their own time returning from a remote location without payment for overtime/traveling time . Since overtime is normally optional , OP should be able to insist on being back to base for finishing time - but equally well might offer to work overtime the night before if need be to ensure the job is completed on time .
I have never worked at a job where anything in your employment would give you a right to claim that you should be home at any normal time. If anything, I would expect to do a full days work and then travel home.
Perhaps if you get paid by the hour then you might take this view? I guess by your views of overtime pay, this is the case with you?
When you work in a salaried role that includes travel, you are almost certainly going to add some time onto your day. The OP indicates that some level of travel is expected as part of the employment contract.
Personally, I regularly end up staying away / traveling overnight including over the weekends and this is part of the job and the salary that comes with it.
I have on occasion flown to Korea on a Saturday Morning to work 2 full days, fly back on the Tuesday (leaving the office in Seoul at the end of the working day) and made it in to work for 9am Wednesday. Its expected as part of the job.
When I was in a similar situation to the OP with some Manic St Preachers tickets that I couldn't use as I was in Hong Kong, I just took it on the chin as a bit of bad luck. In the end I gave the tickets to a friend and let them have a night out. Not sure I would have even mentioned it to the boss...What goes around comes around......
Bob
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