Enforceable?

[andy-xr]

I think hes given you a pretty valid reason, whether or not you believe it, you're asking him to change plans daily for two months. You'd not get the same for people with childcare arrangements I guess? If the work is fairly menial, consider knocking it out to an outsourced admin company or Amazon Mechanical Turk, give the rest of the staff the same time off and save some money in the wage bill?

ETA, this has been bugging me so I've come back to it

OP - where's your focus? It sounds like it's on you and your company. I'm not seeing where you're putting yourself in the shoes of your staff, how do you know this guys's saying what others are thinking?

It sounds to me as though he's telling you time with his family vs (rough guess) £60/month net is more important to him, and you're not only questioning it, you're considering hauling him over the coals on it.

The COO of Facebook is fairly publicly OK saying that she leaves her office at 5.30. I'm guessing she doesnt stop work at 5.30, what with all the important calls and stuff COO's do. So translate that to your business - how can you empower your staff and be a leader, instead of the boss you appear to be? I'm sure you're a great boss, but are you holding your business back?

If the wage bill for this 2 month charade is what, £5k, where else can you get a better return on that money? How can you make your people more productive? It doesnt seem that an extra £100 a month gross is doing it for at least 1 of them

How much remote access solution can you get for £5k and let everyone log in when they get home, do their admin etc? Let them be more productive. And thank the guy for bringing it to your attention, I'll bet money that he'll work more and harder, because he's being allowed and encouraged to, not told to with a disciplinary

Edited by andy-xr on Tuesday 29th January 22:50

[J3PTF]

NDA said:

Would it bite him later?

My approach would be to find out what the issue is and to do that in a collaborative way rather than an adversarial one. If it turns out that the guy is simply being awkward then it's quite easy to start a procedure.

The top sales guy is worth a little extra effort I reckon.

But the guy must know leaving early will ruffle feathers, so should not be put out about being pulled in no talk about it. The investigative stage doesn't have to be overly confrontational if done well.

No matter how good the guy is, I doubt he's better than the rest of the team put together...

[Pothole]

NDA said:

From my own experience as an employer, I'd say this guy has just written himself out of a future with the company. Whilst this would be illegal to acknowledge or say to him, it's how it is in the world of grown ups!

Very grown up, breaking the law. You must be very proud.

[singlecoil]

Pothole said:

NDA said:

From my own experience as an employer, I'd say this guy has just written himself out of a future with the company. Whilst this would be illegal to acknowledge or say to him, it's how it is in the world of grown ups!

Very grown up, breaking the law. You must be very proud.

What he said may be illegal, but it is the way things happen in many employment situations.

[Pothole]

singlecoil said:

Pothole said:

NDA said:

From my own experience as an employer, I'd say this guy has just written himself out of a future with the company. Whilst this would be illegal to acknowledge or say to him, it's how it is in the world of grown ups!

Very grown up, breaking the law. You must be very proud.

What he said may be illegal, but it is the way things happen in many employment situations.

You ought to know me better than to think I am so naive as to think otherwise.

[singlecoil]

Pothole said:

singlecoil said:

Pothole said:

NDA said:

From my own experience as an employer, I'd say this guy has just written himself out of a future with the company. Whilst this would be illegal to acknowledge or say to him, it's how it is in the world of grown ups!

Very grown up, breaking the law. You must be very proud.

What he said may be illegal, but it is the way things happen in many employment situations.

You ought to know me better than to think I am so naive as to think otherwise.

I didn't think you were that naive, but I was slightly surprised at your response to NDA, it seemed somewhat overstated, as if you were grinding an unseen axe.

[Pothole]

singlecoil said:

Pothole said:

singlecoil said:

Pothole said:

NDA said:

From my own experience as an employer, I'd say this guy has just written himself out of a future with the company. Whilst this would be illegal to acknowledge or say to him, it's how it is in the world of grown ups!

Very grown up, breaking the law. You must be very proud.

What he said may be illegal, but it is the way things happen in many employment situations.

You ought to know me better than to think I am so naive as to think otherwise.

I didn't think you were that naive, but I was slightly surprised at your response to NDA, it seemed somewhat overstated, as if you were grinding an unseen axe.

It's a hateful attitude, and not helpful to business in my opinion, but then nor is a vaguely-worded expectation in a contract of employment. It's the kind of management ineptitude that winds me up!

[NDA]

Pothole said:

singlecoil said:

Pothole said:

singlecoil said:

Pothole said:

NDA said:

From my own experience as an employer, I'd say this guy has just written himself out of a future with the company. Whilst this would be illegal to acknowledge or say to him, it's how it is in the world of grown ups!

Very grown up, breaking the law. You must be very proud.

What he said may be illegal, but it is the way things happen in many employment situations.

You ought to know me better than to think I am so naive as to think otherwise.

I didn't think you were that naive, but I was slightly surprised at your response to NDA, it seemed somewhat overstated, as if you were grinding an unseen axe.

It's a hateful attitude, and not helpful to business in my opinion, but then nor is a vaguely-worded expectation in a contract of employment. It's the kind of management ineptitude that winds me up!

It's not breaking the law to 'think' someone who works for you is a tw@t.

Most organisations will have a private view on someone, certainly the OP, as a good example, is thinking his employee is effectively finished. And then there's the legal approach that follows employment law. It's how it works.

There might be occasions, for example, where a 32 year old newly married female is interviewed and the company thinks 'hmmm, she's about to take at least six months off to start a family. Should I take her on or the other candidate?'

Illegal, discriminatory... Yes. But it's how the world works.

It's silly and petulant to say 'you must be very proud'.

[icetea]

Given we're only a day away from the end of January, is it even worth dealing with it now? By the time you force him through a disciplinary process its going to be just about finished with your jan/feb period anyway. Why not let it go for now, and keep your best guy for the rest of the year. Then deal with it in November.

[BrabusMog]

Pothole said:

singlecoil said:

Pothole said:

singlecoil said:

Pothole said:

NDA said:

From my own experience as an employer, I'd say this guy has just written himself out of a future with the company. Whilst this would be illegal to acknowledge or say to him, it's how it is in the world of grown ups!

Very grown up, breaking the law. You must be very proud.

What he said may be illegal, but it is the way things happen in many employment situations.

You ought to know me better than to think I am so naive as to think otherwise.

I didn't think you were that naive, but I was slightly surprised at your response to NDA, it seemed somewhat overstated, as if you were grinding an unseen axe.

It's a hateful attitude, and not helpful to business in my opinion, but then nor is a vaguely-worded expectation in a contract of employment. It's the kind of management ineptitude that winds me up!

Whilst it is vaguely worded in his contract, it couldn't be made clearer when they are interviewed that the company expects this in Jan/Feb but they will get paid for it.

icetea - whilst I understand what you are saying, I am keen to avoid anyone thinking they may wish to try it on next year. So, with this in mind, we are going down the disciplinary route.

[anonymous-user]

I look at contracts for a living, and don't regard the contract in this case as vaguely worded. OP, if you decide to let the bloke off the extra duty this year, make it clear that the company reserves the right to take a different view in the future.

[BrabusMog]

andy-xr said:

I think hes given you a pretty valid reason, whether or not you believe it, you're asking him to change plans daily for two months. You'd not get the same for people with childcare arrangements I guess? If the work is fairly menial, consider knocking it out to an outsourced admin company or Amazon Mechanical Turk, give the rest of the staff the same time off and save some money in the wage bill?

ETA, this has been bugging me so I've come back to it

OP - where's your focus? It sounds like it's on you and your company. I'm not seeing where you're putting yourself in the shoes of your staff, how do you know this guys's saying what others are thinking?

It sounds to me as though he's telling you time with his family vs (rough guess) £60/month net is more important to him, and you're not only questioning it, you're considering hauling him over the coals on it.

The COO of Facebook is fairly publicly OK saying that she leaves her office at 5.30. I'm guessing she doesnt stop work at 5.30, what with all the important calls and stuff COO's do. So translate that to your business - how can you empower your staff and be a leader, instead of the boss you appear to be? I'm sure you're a great boss, but are you holding your business back?

If the wage bill for this 2 month charade is what, £5k, where else can you get a better return on that money? How can you make your people more productive? It doesnt seem that an extra £100 a month gross is doing it for at least 1 of them

How much remote access solution can you get for £5k and let everyone log in when they get home, do their admin etc? Let them be more productive. And thank the guy for bringing it to your attention, I'll bet money that he'll work more and harder, because he's being allowed and encouraged to, not told to with a disciplinary

Edited by andy-xr on Tuesday 29th January 22:50

I didn't see this earlier, apologies for not replying.

We tell people when they join the company that they are expected to work an additional 30 mins (paid) in January and February as this is our busiest period. It's not a big ask and everyone else can manage to work around it. I should also add that at any other time of the year we are flexible in terms of leaving early/starting late and he quite often takes advantage of this, which of course he is entitled to do so.

It's not a question of him being satisfied with the extra money, the business needs the additional work doing and we've offered start early/take 30mins less lunch - all of which he can't do, apparently.

People already have remote access and are welcome to do the 30 mins from home if they really have to but we do prefer people to do it in the office.

Without wanting to sound harsh, whilst he generates the most revenue for the business, he is not as irreplacable as he seems to think he is. The problem we have is that, as a specialist company, we need people who can sell and also have a lot of knowledge. He has both and it takes about 3-4 months for most people to get up to speed and start selling at anywhere near the rates he does. I can't see another company paying him such a high basic salary as we do, which is a reward we have given him for excellent year-on-year performance.

I just want to make it clear that I haven't marked his card, so to speak, I am just extremely disappointed that he cannot pull his weight like the rest of the team do. He is very well treated, well paid, gets at least one free holiday a year (usually 2 or 3) and our office is usually a really nice place to be. We won't be managing him out or anything like that and I can't see his sales decreasing as he has a pretty decent lifestyle off the commission he earns on top of his basic.

[strudel]

Do you notice a clear difference in that extra half an hour? I work a 40 hour work and most of my colleagues agree we do the same amount of work as those on 37.5 as there really isn't any more of a hurry to do it. Sometimes I work a 10 hour day, but only when I'm in the mood for it. Other days I'll just stare at the clock as I don't feel inclined. My previous job had flexi time and I got far more done in 37 hours a week as I could work when I was at my most efficient.

Smarter, not harder!

[BrabusMog]

Yes, we do notice a difference, it's why we ask the staff to do it.

[Pothole]

Unless the extra time is spent in contact with clients/customers I wonder what would happen if you scrapped it? you might find that people actually want to get work done and achieve but work a bit more efficiently and get it done anyway...

[anonymous-user]

That's a management judgment for the OP's company, which we must assume knows its own business. At present, the management judgment is that a collective effort by all for an extra half hour is worthwhile. One worker objects to joining in this. That need not be a basis for a change of management judgment.

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 31st January 10:56

[sunoco69]

Breadvan72 said:

That's a management judgment for the OP's company, which we must assume knows its own business. At present, the management judgment is that a collective effort by all for an extra half hour is worthwhile. One worker object to joining in this. That need not be a basis for a change of management judgment.

What he said! Oh and get a grip of the fecker!

[Pothole]

Breadvan72 said:

That's a management judgment for the OP's company, which we must assume knows its own business. At present, the management judgment is that a collective effort by all for an extra half hour is worthwhile. One worker object to joining in this. That need not be a basis for a change of management judgment.

Of course it is. In my experience this type of thing is often left in place long after its usefulness has been disproven however. I was just wondering, not advocating a restructure!

[BrabusMog]

Pothole said:

Breadvan72 said:

That's a management judgment for the OP's company, which we must assume knows its own business. At present, the management judgment is that a collective effort by all for an extra half hour is worthwhile. One worker object to joining in this. That need not be a basis for a change of management judgment.

Of course it is. In my experience this type of thing is often left in place long after its usefulness has been disproven however. I was just wondering, not advocating a restructure!

Well said, Breadvan. I didn't want to be rude to people offering advice on how we operate but rest assured, this is a tried and tested method that is being questioned for the first (and hopefully last) time.

[cossy400]

BrabusMog said:

Pothole said:

Breadvan72 said:

That's a management judgment for the OP's company, which we must assume knows its own business. At present, the management judgment is that a collective effort by all for an extra half hour is worthwhile. One worker object to joining in this. That need not be a basis for a change of management judgment.

Of course it is. In my experience this type of thing is often left in place long after its usefulness has been disproven however. I was just wondering, not advocating a restructure!

Well said, Breadvan. I didn't want to be rude to people offering advice on how we operate but rest assured, this is a tried and tested method that is being questioned for the first (and hopefully last) time.

And the out come of this in the end was if you dont mind me asking?