Why we hate Recruitment Agencies
Discussion
lawtoni said:
Proclaiming (like many people have done on this thread) that the 100,000+ people in the UK that work in recruitment agencies are all liars, b
ds and lying bds is not intelligent.
100,000 people from all parts of the country, ends of the pay scales and all parts of society are not all liars! That is as dim as saying all french people are dishonest or all Americans are thick!
The problem seems to be the perception of what recruiters do, are able to do (as highlighted by RepiV)and what they should do.
I agree that there are improvements needed across the industry, clearly. But there are so many misconceptions and sweeping generalisations it's untrue
But different trades require different skills and different folksds and lying bds is not intelligent.100,000 people from all parts of the country, ends of the pay scales and all parts of society are not all liars! That is as dim as saying all french people are dishonest or all Americans are thick!
The problem seems to be the perception of what recruiters do, are able to do (as highlighted by RepiV)and what they should do.
I agree that there are improvements needed across the industry, clearly. But there are so many misconceptions and sweeping generalisations it's untrue
are attracted to different jobs.
Certainly, the same kind of folks that work in RA, also work in second hand car sales,
estate agencies and other highly esteemed "matching up buyer and seller" roles.
Blindly matching up, without any technical knowledge, the words on the requirement
with words on the candidate CV is pretty much standard across the industry.
Being lied to, not returning calls, being creative with the reality and
skimming off 20+% for doing almost nothing are also almost universal.
Personally, after more than twenty years experience of them, I loathe all RAs
with a fervour I reserve for door to door salesmen, folks who pester me to
change religion and folks who try to sell me things over the phone.
An RA which has some non-zero technical knowledge, and so is able to intelligently
match, would be a big winner, in my view.
An RA which was happy with only 10% skim and some contract renewal would also be a big winner.
Having lived with a recruiter, and experienced both sides of the coin as a job hunter and employer, my perspective is this.
1. The recruiter initially begins by lying to the perspective client about the candidates they have available, usually having "perfect" CVs of people who are either well out of budget, not available or are totally fictional. Once the client declares an interest and signs-up, the trojan horse candidates are unfortunately no longer available, but they'll send across some more CVs
2. The recruiter does a keyword search on Linkedin, CV database and advertises the role on various job boards. After doing a ctrl +F on various CVs, perspective candidates are contacted and lied to about almost every element of the role. It's a brilliant growing company, money etc...
3. CVs are fired through to the client for anyone who doesn't sound like a mental case and matches the ctrl + f "research"
4. Candidates are interviewed and the recruiter aggressively sells the candidate to the company and visa versa
5. Recruiter takes between 15% - 25% of first years salary once a candidate is appointed.
The majority of the time is spent trying to find new clients for the recruiter, and not on actually finding/filtering candidates. So the fees are inflated to cover off all of the marketing/prospecting that is done by the company. This isn't really an efficient model, and because the company is under so much pressure to find new business, they don't have the resource to do a really good job on each job search. They also don't have enough time to build good relationships with candidates (they're not paying the bill) so it leads to a poor experience. Particularly as it's a stressful time for the candidate, who may have loads of questions that the recruiter can'd answer, and merely acts as blocker between a candidate and those in the know.
There are exceptions to this, where companies operate in very specialized markets and have a very good contact list. This is the exception rather than the rule.
1. The recruiter initially begins by lying to the perspective client about the candidates they have available, usually having "perfect" CVs of people who are either well out of budget, not available or are totally fictional. Once the client declares an interest and signs-up, the trojan horse candidates are unfortunately no longer available, but they'll send across some more CVs
2. The recruiter does a keyword search on Linkedin, CV database and advertises the role on various job boards. After doing a ctrl +F on various CVs, perspective candidates are contacted and lied to about almost every element of the role. It's a brilliant growing company, money etc...
3. CVs are fired through to the client for anyone who doesn't sound like a mental case and matches the ctrl + f "research"
4. Candidates are interviewed and the recruiter aggressively sells the candidate to the company and visa versa
5. Recruiter takes between 15% - 25% of first years salary once a candidate is appointed.
The majority of the time is spent trying to find new clients for the recruiter, and not on actually finding/filtering candidates. So the fees are inflated to cover off all of the marketing/prospecting that is done by the company. This isn't really an efficient model, and because the company is under so much pressure to find new business, they don't have the resource to do a really good job on each job search. They also don't have enough time to build good relationships with candidates (they're not paying the bill) so it leads to a poor experience. Particularly as it's a stressful time for the candidate, who may have loads of questions that the recruiter can'd answer, and merely acts as blocker between a candidate and those in the know.
There are exceptions to this, where companies operate in very specialized markets and have a very good contact list. This is the exception rather than the rule.
Edited by GBDG on Wednesday 23 October 12:25
Sorry lawtoni, laudable effort and all that but...
My mild mannered brother runs a small team at an accounting firm but you should hear the vitriol he comes out with about RAs. Forever ringing up trying to destabilise his staff and entice them away for non-existent jobs. It's a constant game of banning their phone numbers but still they come back. They lie to get in contact, then lie about what they have to offer.
Similar on a personal front as well from both sides of the table and I wouldn't dream of using one now. They add nothing but obfuscation and acrimony to the recruitment process IMHO. As others have explained, ironically including yourself, it is down to the incentives they have which are not aligned with either the client or the potential employee it seems to me.
Find a firm you'd like to work for and contact their HR direct. There may not be a job at that moment but when there is something suitable available they'll contact you (and save themselves a packet). This has worked for me in the past.
The only mystery is why RAs are so successful (I know two personally, both very well off). Market forces are at work so some recruiters must perceive they give value. I just don't get it. The alternatives must be worse.
My mild mannered brother runs a small team at an accounting firm but you should hear the vitriol he comes out with about RAs. Forever ringing up trying to destabilise his staff and entice them away for non-existent jobs. It's a constant game of banning their phone numbers but still they come back. They lie to get in contact, then lie about what they have to offer.
Similar on a personal front as well from both sides of the table and I wouldn't dream of using one now. They add nothing but obfuscation and acrimony to the recruitment process IMHO. As others have explained, ironically including yourself, it is down to the incentives they have which are not aligned with either the client or the potential employee it seems to me.
Find a firm you'd like to work for and contact their HR direct. There may not be a job at that moment but when there is something suitable available they'll contact you (and save themselves a packet). This has worked for me in the past.
The only mystery is why RAs are so successful (I know two personally, both very well off). Market forces are at work so some recruiters must perceive they give value. I just don't get it. The alternatives must be worse.
lawtoni said:
STW2010 said:
So your selling point is that you could find someone their dream job by understanding what they want, but in reality you don't do this? So your selling point is also a load of bullst.
Ever think, and I mean really think, about why people believe that recruitment consultants are liars?
My comments were clearly about the recruitment industry in general. The way I work is professional and courteous and I find good people good jobs.t.Ever think, and I mean really think, about why people believe that recruitment consultants are liars?
Proclaiming (like many people have done on this thread) that the 100,000+ people in the UK that work in recruitment agencies are all liars, b
ds and lying bds is not intelligent.100,000 people from all parts of the country, ends of the pay scales and all parts of society are not all liars! That is as dim as saying all french people are dishonest or all Americans are thick!
The problem seems to be the perception of what recruiters do, are able to do (as highlighted by RepiV)and what they should do.
I agree that there are improvements needed across the industry, clearly. But there are so many misconceptions and sweeping generalisations it's untrue
Let's read it again shall we?
Ever think, and I mean really think, about why people believe that recruitment consultants are liars?
I didn't even say 'everyone', I said 'people'.
Lawtoni, you are a terrible reflection on the recruitment industry. You talk/type exactly like the sort of person whose nickname is his surname with an "I" tagged on to the end.
Effectively you have started a thread saying "Don't get angry with recruiters, just accept that if I don't need you at a given time then I don't give a flying fk about you. As long as you accept this you will understand how recruitment companies work and we will all be happy"
I've been in recruitment for a long time, and I know exactly what type of consultant you are from your attitude on here, and like it or not, you are exactly the sort of person who gives the industry a bad name.
I believe you that your clients and contractors think you give them a good service and I believe that is all that matters to you.
I don't agree with you though. I believe any company in the world (as you like to benchmark) gains a reputation from it's dealings with everyone they come into contact with and if you are as dismissive as you imply just because someone is of no immediate financial gain then you have to accept the reputation you have and give your industry without whinging about it.
Effectively you have started a thread saying "Don't get angry with recruiters, just accept that if I don't need you at a given time then I don't give a flying f
k about you. As long as you accept this you will understand how recruitment companies work and we will all be happy"I've been in recruitment for a long time, and I know exactly what type of consultant you are from your attitude on here, and like it or not, you are exactly the sort of person who gives the industry a bad name.
I believe you that your clients and contractors think you give them a good service and I believe that is all that matters to you.
I don't agree with you though. I believe any company in the world (as you like to benchmark) gains a reputation from it's dealings with everyone they come into contact with and if you are as dismissive as you imply just because someone is of no immediate financial gain then you have to accept the reputation you have and give your industry without whinging about it.
blindswelledrat said:
Lawtoni, you are a terrible reflection on the recruitment industry. You talk/type exactly like the sort of person whose nickname is his surname with an "I" tagged on to the end.
Effectively you have started a thread saying "Don't get angry with recruiters, just accept that if I don't need you at a given time then I don't give a flying fk about you. As long as you accept this you will understand how recruitment companies work and we will all be happy"
I've been in recruitment for a long time, and I know exactly what type of consultant you are from your attitude on here, and like it or not, you are exactly the sort of person who gives the industry a bad name.
I believe you that your clients and contractors think you give them a good service and I believe that is all that matters to you.
I don't agree with you though. I believe any company in the world (as you like to benchmark) gains a reputation from it's dealings with everyone they come into contact with and if you are as dismissive as you imply just because someone is of no immediate financial gain then you have to accept the reputation you have and give your industry without whinging about it.
This thread that I started in order to hear and share people's views has become too personal and based on the last poster, i will leave you to itEffectively you have started a thread saying "Don't get angry with recruiters, just accept that if I don't need you at a given time then I don't give a flying f
k about you. As long as you accept this you will understand how recruitment companies work and we will all be happy"I've been in recruitment for a long time, and I know exactly what type of consultant you are from your attitude on here, and like it or not, you are exactly the sort of person who gives the industry a bad name.
I believe you that your clients and contractors think you give them a good service and I believe that is all that matters to you.
I don't agree with you though. I believe any company in the world (as you like to benchmark) gains a reputation from it's dealings with everyone they come into contact with and if you are as dismissive as you imply just because someone is of no immediate financial gain then you have to accept the reputation you have and give your industry without whinging about it.
lawtoni said:
This thread that I started in order to hear and share people's views has become too personal and based on the last poster, i will leave you to it
No you didn't. You started it as a challenge to people who had a dim view of recruitment with the intention of trying to sarcastically put them down when they said anything with the single arrogant argument that could be pretty much summed up as "So what? Tough"lawtoni said:
My comments were clearly about the recruitment industry in general. The way I work is professional and courteous and I find good people good jobs.
Proclaiming (like many people have done on this thread) that the 100,000+ people in the UK that work in recruitment agencies are all liars, bds and lying bds is not intelligent.
100,000 people from all parts of the country, ends of the pay scales and all parts of society are not all liars! That is as dim as saying all french people are dishonest or all Americans are thick!
The problem seems to be the perception of what recruiters do, are able to do (as highlighted by RepiV)and what they should do.
I agree that there are improvements needed across the industry, clearly. But there are so many misconceptions and sweeping generalisations it's untrue
STW2010 caught you out. You know perfectly well the phrase you wrote, and he quoted, was meant to apply to the entire industry, yourself included. Otherwise you'd have specifically differentiated, and you didn't.Proclaiming (like many people have done on this thread) that the 100,000+ people in the UK that work in recruitment agencies are all liars, b
ds and lying bds is not intelligent.100,000 people from all parts of the country, ends of the pay scales and all parts of society are not all liars! That is as dim as saying all french people are dishonest or all Americans are thick!
The problem seems to be the perception of what recruiters do, are able to do (as highlighted by RepiV)and what they should do.
I agree that there are improvements needed across the industry, clearly. But there are so many misconceptions and sweeping generalisations it's untrue
lawtoni said:
This thread that I started in order to hear and share people's views has become too personal and based on the last poster, i will leave you to it
Last poster as in BSR or me?If it's me then perhaps in future leave other people's intelligence out of it, especially in light of the fact that you couldn't read properly.
well that escalated quickly......
My 2 pence, I have experienced a mixed bunch since being active in the market, from people giving up a fee to put me in contact with the right company, to others who couldn't give a st.
There are great recruiters out there who do care, you just have to find them and continue to use them.
My 2 pence, I have experienced a mixed bunch since being active in the market, from people giving up a fee to put me in contact with the right company, to others who couldn't give a s
t.There are great recruiters out there who do care, you just have to find them and continue to use them.
In my experience as an IT Contractor most agencies are utter crap, but the gist of what the OP is saying is correct, Candidates think they are the client and expect to be treated as such, when the reality is they are the product. It doesn't make the way agencies act correct, but their focus is on the people who pay their bills.
Why oh why was this topic started?
OP did you honestly think you could persuade the masses that in fact most recruiters aren'ts?
I own a small agency and feel I/we do a pretty good job and are massively cheaper than 99% of our competition.
Do I feel the need to defend my industry and change everyones opinions of it? Not a chance.
Most people don't like recruiters (although, ironically I can honestly say I have never spoken to or met a candidate that gave any impression they didn't like me).
OP did you honestly think you could persuade the masses that in fact most recruiters aren't
s?I own a small agency and feel I/we do a pretty good job and are massively cheaper than 99% of our competition.
Do I feel the need to defend my industry and change everyones opinions of it? Not a chance.
Most people don't like recruiters (although, ironically I can honestly say I have never spoken to or met a candidate that gave any impression they didn't like me).
I haven't read the whole thread but skim reading would echo some of the comments above. Like in every industry there are those who are good at their job and who don't give a s***. Recruitment Agents that are good at what they do do it very well. Yes of course they are there to place you and get their commission. That is fundamentally their job and what they get paid for.
The vast majority of agents who have contacted me over the years I have never bothered with. I know when I want to move and what I am looking for. Too many of them don't even bother find out what area of the particular industry you work in and 'phone you offering a role that you have no expertise for whatsoever. I have had calls for xyz role with abc salary that would mean a huge pay cut for a role I am not even qualified for.
However I have kept in touch with one or two. They really know their stuff, know who is who and who does what in organisations and actually listen to what you are looking for. One guy knows he would be my first port of call for the next role. He doesn't need to hassle me or constantly call me, I would 'phone him. So like alot of jobs it is relatively simple, listen to your "client" and deliver what they want, not what you think they want or 50% of what they want. They will then come to you because they want to deal with you.
The vast majority of agents who have contacted me over the years I have never bothered with. I know when I want to move and what I am looking for. Too many of them don't even bother find out what area of the particular industry you work in and 'phone you offering a role that you have no expertise for whatsoever. I have had calls for xyz role with abc salary that would mean a huge pay cut for a role I am not even qualified for.
However I have kept in touch with one or two. They really know their stuff, know who is who and who does what in organisations and actually listen to what you are looking for. One guy knows he would be my first port of call for the next role. He doesn't need to hassle me or constantly call me, I would 'phone him. So like alot of jobs it is relatively simple, listen to your "client" and deliver what they want, not what you think they want or 50% of what they want. They will then come to you because they want to deal with you.
My experience is double edged, for the kind of skilled staff I require they are the only option and they do find the right people eventually. On the flip side I have had to deal with duplicate applications from more than two agencies and purported applications from people that did not know they were applying for the positions. The second is a massive waste of my time from sifting CV's the other causes monumental hassle as the competing agencies demand their fees. I have discounted many a good candidate due to the same CV turning up from more than one source, once bitten twice shy.
Don't get me started on the edited CV's that the applicants have no knowledge of until the interview..I don't hold it against the applicants its just very embarrassing for both parties.
Don't get me started on the edited CV's that the applicants have no knowledge of until the interview..I don't hold it against the applicants its just very embarrassing for both parties.
Over the years as a perm candidate for management roles including "C" level, as a contractor and as a hiring manager, I can confidently say that *almost* all RAs are indeed crap.
I have a list of the ones who lied about roles, lied about sending my CV, didn't call me back, didn't reply to emails when they'd asked for a CV and so on. Coincidentally (ha) these are the ones who repeatedly cold call, often attempting pathetically bad social engineering to get through to me, or direct to the HR director as a "recommendation" from me.
I will never hire from them, and if they ever do get through to my phone I tell them why I will never hire from them. Since my hiring:job hunting ratio is about 30:1, they lose big time.
There is ONE company I trust, with three guys running it. They are ethical, honest to a fault, take time to understand role requirements and pre-interview candidates, and won't send me any CVs unless they're pretty sure the candidate would be on a shortlist. They've placed me into two senior roles, and I've hired from them a number of times. I'd say they actually care about me as a person, I'd even go so far as to say we've become friends.
The OP does NOT give me the impression from his posts that he's like that. I may be wrong, but when the written word is a critical part of one's business, I'd expect that he would have thought carefully about the impression he gave.
I have a list of the ones who lied about roles, lied about sending my CV, didn't call me back, didn't reply to emails when they'd asked for a CV and so on. Coincidentally (ha) these are the ones who repeatedly cold call, often attempting pathetically bad social engineering to get through to me, or direct to the HR director as a "recommendation" from me.
I will never hire from them, and if they ever do get through to my phone I tell them why I will never hire from them. Since my hiring:job hunting ratio is about 30:1, they lose big time.
There is ONE company I trust, with three guys running it. They are ethical, honest to a fault, take time to understand role requirements and pre-interview candidates, and won't send me any CVs unless they're pretty sure the candidate would be on a shortlist. They've placed me into two senior roles, and I've hired from them a number of times. I'd say they actually care about me as a person, I'd even go so far as to say we've become friends.
The OP does NOT give me the impression from his posts that he's like that. I may be wrong, but when the written word is a critical part of one's business, I'd expect that he would have thought carefully about the impression he gave.
Work with one carefully selected recruiter exclusively. Pay them a retainer if you trust them. Agree a timeframe and an expected service delivery with them. This and many other problems solved.
If they're any good they'll be asking for these things anyway, if not insisting on them as a prerequisite for doing business.
If they're any good they'll be asking for these things anyway, if not insisting on them as a prerequisite for doing business.
PlankWithANailIn said:
My experience is double edged, for the kind of skilled staff I require they are the only option and they do find the right people eventually. On the flip side I have had to deal with duplicate applications from more than two agencies and purported applications from people that did not know they were applying for the positions. The second is a massive waste of my time from sifting CV's the other causes monumental hassle as the competing agencies demand their fees. I have discounted many a good candidate due to the same CV turning up from more than one source, once bitten twice shy.
Don't get me started on the edited CV's that the applicants have no knowledge of until the interview..I don't hold it against the applicants its just very embarrassing for both parties.
Don't get me started on the edited CV's that the applicants have no knowledge of until the interview..I don't hold it against the applicants its just very embarrassing for both parties.
odyssey2200 said:
jonah35 said:
Its sales, they're not interested in the job seeker no matter how hard they pretend to be and their sole aim is to place you to get commission.
They don't give a s
t about the candidate, only getting paid.I say this as someone who has been unemployed since June and having to deal with these idiots.
Promise the world and deliver sod all.
The sad part is that they genuinely think that I believe their bull s
t.as a very recent example, I applied for a job via an agency about 3 weeks ago and other than an automated response saying that they had forwarded my details to their client, NOTHING! not a fookin whisper.
I managed to find the job advertise on the employers own website, yesterday, so I applied direct (always risky but figured that I had nothing to lose)
I applied late yesterday PM and by lunchtime today I had a phone call from the employer and have an interview on Friday.
SO WT flying F has the recruitment agency done?
answers on a postcard...
TX.
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