Why we hate Recruitment Agencies
Discussion
Some good replies from experience. It's too easy for the ethical RAs (if they still exist) to be undercut by the unscrupulous ones I think. So, as suggested, more discerning recruiters may be the answer.
Just imagine anyone with "agent" in their title as Darren Lamb and you won't go far wrong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmDhqDGk0K4
Just imagine anyone with "agent" in their title as Darren Lamb and you won't go far wrong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmDhqDGk0K4
Woolly said:
Some good replies from experience. It's too easy for the ethical RAs (if they still exist) to be undercut by the unscrupulous ones I think. So, as suggested, more discerning recruiters may be the answer.
Well, yes.The work that goes into running a full end to end recruitment process thoroughly cannot be justified at a 10-15% fee that most people think they should be paying, and especially not when working on a contingent basis in competition with others.
It takes a high level of selling skill, the kind you learn in corporate sales training, to develop this kind of client relationship, not to mention the knowledge and skill to implement it and the ability to walk away from the many companies which refuse to work in this way.
Even then, we are usually paid on a successful placement only. Working in the above manner means only having a handful of open vacancies at a time and if anything goes wrong you can be left with no payment for months of work. There's no room for error.
Therefore, most recruiters play the numbers game. It's bad for everyone, but it's ultimately the fault of the hiring companies. If they were more discerning about who they worked with and didn't expect Ferrari service for Fiat money, s
t recruiters would go out of business overnight.repiV said:
Well, yes.
The work that goes into running a full end to end recruitment process thoroughly cannot be justified at a 10-15% fee that most people think they should be paying, and especially not when working on a contingent basis in competition with others.
It takes a high level of selling skill, the kind you learn in corporate sales training, to develop this kind of client relationship, not to mention the knowledge and skill to implement it and the ability to walk away from the many companies which refuse to work in this way.
Even then, we are usually paid on a successful placement only. Working in the above manner means only having a handful of open vacancies at a time and if anything goes wrong you can be left with no payment for months of work. There's no room for error.
Therefore, most recruiters play the numbers game. It's bad for everyone, but it's ultimately the fault of the hiring companies. If they were more discerning about who they worked with and didn't expect Ferrari service for Fiat money, st recruiters would go out of business overnight.
I may be missing something here, but how is the level of sales skill required for recruitment consultants any different to any other competitive market? Surely this is the nature of a sales role? Whilst I am not familiar with the overheads of a recruitment business, I would be surprised if they were dramatically higher than any other company beyond the fact that market saturation makes conversion rate a lot lower than it might be for other industries.The work that goes into running a full end to end recruitment process thoroughly cannot be justified at a 10-15% fee that most people think they should be paying, and especially not when working on a contingent basis in competition with others.
It takes a high level of selling skill, the kind you learn in corporate sales training, to develop this kind of client relationship, not to mention the knowledge and skill to implement it and the ability to walk away from the many companies which refuse to work in this way.
Even then, we are usually paid on a successful placement only. Working in the above manner means only having a handful of open vacancies at a time and if anything goes wrong you can be left with no payment for months of work. There's no room for error.
Therefore, most recruiters play the numbers game. It's bad for everyone, but it's ultimately the fault of the hiring companies. If they were more discerning about who they worked with and didn't expect Ferrari service for Fiat money, s
t recruiters would go out of business overnight.Tallow said:
I may be missing something here, but how is the level of sales skill required for recruitment consultants any different to any other competitive market? Surely this is the nature of a sales role? Whilst I am not familiar with the overheads of a recruitment business, I would be surprised if they were dramatically higher than any other company beyond the fact that market saturation makes conversion rate a lot lower than it might be for other industries.
You're forgetting the expense of shiny suits and hair gel.FFS, all it needs are phones, web access and a database, plus a lot of nous and the temperament to build a long term business.
The usual recruitment bashing thread.
My advice to candidates- meet 5 agencies, pick a maximum of 2 or 3 to work with and politely decline to work with the businesses that you do not trust. Be honest and transparent- it will pay dividends.
My advice to clients- Build long term, mutually beneficial relationships with one or two businesses you trust. Communicate openly, don't be scared to tell speculative approaches to clear off. I know some businesses that engage 15 recruiters on every role they are looking to hire. I guarantee this will not run smoothly and it is the type of mandate I would politely decline.
My advice to candidates- meet 5 agencies, pick a maximum of 2 or 3 to work with and politely decline to work with the businesses that you do not trust. Be honest and transparent- it will pay dividends.
My advice to clients- Build long term, mutually beneficial relationships with one or two businesses you trust. Communicate openly, don't be scared to tell speculative approaches to clear off. I know some businesses that engage 15 recruiters on every role they are looking to hire. I guarantee this will not run smoothly and it is the type of mandate I would politely decline.
Tallow said:
I may be missing something here, but how is the level of sales skill required for recruitment consultants any different to any other competitive market? Surely this is the nature of a sales role? Whilst I am not familiar with the overheads of a recruitment business, I would be surprised if they were dramatically higher than any other company beyond the fact that market saturation makes conversion rate a lot lower than it might be for other industries.
As always this depends entirely on what you're looking to sell, to whom and in what capacity. You don't need a great deal of sales finesse to broker commodity products that are sold on price or with an otherwise purely transactional relationship between buyer and seller. To sell complicated solutions involving multiple decision makers and steps, which require the customer to alter their current ways of thinking and/or doing things, is a considerably more difficult process.Hence there are lots of recruitment "consultants" who spam CVs around, make relentless low quality cold calls and throw enough mud at the wall so that some of it sticks. This is transactional sales of the worst kind. Actually being able to develop a relationship with a company via multiple contacts with very different agendas, implement a process which actually provides quality service but that they are usually resistant to, get exclusivity, cooperation and a higher price, and THEN deliver the higher level of service that you promised...it's probably the most difficult sales job out there. Even when the "sale" is made, i.e. the relationship in place and the job order taken, there's still no money in the bank.
There are literally dozens of different steps involved in the sales cycle for both client and candidate when recruitment is done properly. It takes years to learn and a lifetime to master. And if you screw up or cut corners on any one of them you risk losing everything. Sadly, 99% of recruiters don't even know what these steps are let alone work on improving their skills at them. They just make up for it through quantity of activity. Enough monkeys with enough typewriters and all that...
repiV said:
As always this depends entirely on what you're looking to sell, to whom and in what capacity. You don't need a great deal of sales finesse to broker commodity products that are sold on price or with an otherwise purely transactional relationship between buyer and seller. To sell complicated solutions involving multiple decision makers and steps, which require the customer to alter their current ways of thinking and/or doing things, is a considerably more difficult process.
Hence there are lots of recruitment "consultants" who spam CVs around, make relentless low quality cold calls and throw enough mud at the wall so that some of it sticks. This is transactional sales of the worst kind. Actually being able to develop a relationship with a company via multiple contacts with very different agendas, implement a process which actually provides quality service but that they are usually resistant to, get exclusivity, cooperation and a higher price, and THEN deliver the higher level of service that you promised...it's probably the most difficult sales job out there. Even when the "sale" is made, i.e. the relationship in place and the job order taken, there's still no money in the bank.
There are literally dozens of different steps involved in the sales cycle for both client and candidate when recruitment is done properly. It takes years to learn and a lifetime to master. And if you screw up or cut corners on any one of them you risk losing everything. Sadly, 99% of recruiters don't even know what these steps are let alone work on improving their skills at them. They just make up for it through quantity of activity. Enough monkeys with enough typewriters and all that...
100% agree with this perspective on sales, repiV. It seems to me that there are a lot of people out there that go and work for recruitment agents and think to themselves "I could do this myself and then I'd be rich. Rich I tells ya!" When in actual fact they don't have the slightest clue about what they're doing, how to run a business, market dynamics or basically anything other than cold calling and CV trawling. I'm sure there are some good companies/consultants out there, but they are massively in the minority. What's more because all employers have been repeatedly hacked off with the vast numbers of cowboys, they won't even entertain the good ones, making it harder still. I certainly know I don't entertain contact with recruitment companies and will by default assume that the person on the other end of the phone is a parasite. Unfair, perhaps, but unfortunately also inevitable.Hence there are lots of recruitment "consultants" who spam CVs around, make relentless low quality cold calls and throw enough mud at the wall so that some of it sticks. This is transactional sales of the worst kind. Actually being able to develop a relationship with a company via multiple contacts with very different agendas, implement a process which actually provides quality service but that they are usually resistant to, get exclusivity, cooperation and a higher price, and THEN deliver the higher level of service that you promised...it's probably the most difficult sales job out there. Even when the "sale" is made, i.e. the relationship in place and the job order taken, there's still no money in the bank.
There are literally dozens of different steps involved in the sales cycle for both client and candidate when recruitment is done properly. It takes years to learn and a lifetime to master. And if you screw up or cut corners on any one of them you risk losing everything. Sadly, 99% of recruiters don't even know what these steps are let alone work on improving their skills at them. They just make up for it through quantity of activity. Enough monkeys with enough typewriters and all that...
NickHKent said:
The usual recruitment bashing thread.
My advice to candidates- meet 5 agencies, pick a maximum of 2 or 3 to work with and politely decline to work with the businesses that you do not trust. Be honest and transparent- it will pay dividends.
problem is it doesn't seem to work like that My advice to candidates- meet 5 agencies, pick a maximum of 2 or 3 to work with and politely decline to work with the businesses that you do not trust. Be honest and transparent- it will pay dividends.
I'd love to be able to stick to 3ish agencies - however I've seen jobs advertised with one agent which isn't anywhere else, what can I do in that situation but apply?I find recruitment agencies good and bad.
Recently I've found a new job (hired direct, which was nice!) and had dealings with one agency who were brilliant, even courteous and professional when I declined their clients job offer.
Another one called me up on Monday, offering me an interview on the Tuesday evening, and the gormless chav type named 'Chantelle' essentially had a ten minute whinge at me for me being unable to attend as I was visiting a family member in hospital the next evening.
She refused to tell me who the employer are, and only revealed that it's actually a group 'open evening' interview under duress. Her final touch? And I quote ''Well...if you're applying for jobs, but would rather be socialising, you need to, like, sort your priorities out''.
Naturally, the handling of the issue, and her insulting rudeness is down to her. The 'send everyone to a group interview' approach and not disclose anything is one of the many approaches I dislike about recruitment agencies.
I understand it (and imagine it's as much at their clients behest as theirs), but it's not much fun to be on the end of.
Recently I've found a new job (hired direct, which was nice!) and had dealings with one agency who were brilliant, even courteous and professional when I declined their clients job offer.
Another one called me up on Monday, offering me an interview on the Tuesday evening, and the gormless chav type named 'Chantelle' essentially had a ten minute whinge at me for me being unable to attend as I was visiting a family member in hospital the next evening.
She refused to tell me who the employer are, and only revealed that it's actually a group 'open evening' interview under duress. Her final touch? And I quote ''Well...if you're applying for jobs, but would rather be socialising, you need to, like, sort your priorities out''.
Naturally, the handling of the issue, and her insulting rudeness is down to her. The 'send everyone to a group interview' approach and not disclose anything is one of the many approaches I dislike about recruitment agencies.
I understand it (and imagine it's as much at their clients behest as theirs), but it's not much fun to be on the end of.
irocfan said:
I had a real corker the other day...
Companies CV has been sent to:
Current Interviews:
so let's see you want me to advise what vacancies you've not heard about? Bear in mind that this is prior to me even signing up with them... I think not!
Beats the pishing email of great job, however we need more information to decide if suitable:Companies CV has been sent to:
Current Interviews:
so let's see you want me to advise what vacancies you've not heard about? Bear in mind that this is prior to me even signing up with them... I think not!
What salary are you on?
What would you like?
Who is your current line manager?
So many of those get replied to with email asking them to ring me to discuss... no one ever does.
Also Im getting a lot of emails about roles using technology I used 7 years ago and they have a CV from back then, bloody annoying they cant be arsed to ring and wont take me off their books.
HannsG said:
How would you advise someone looking for work in the city?
Sign up with agencies and meet face to face or hammer efinancials, cityjobs or jobserve?
I'd say just do the opposite to what I am doing Sign up with agencies and meet face to face or hammer efinancials, cityjobs or jobserve?
Apparently one of your best bets for work in "the City" is networking - guess what I'm totally st atTallow said:
100% agree with this perspective on sales, repiV. It seems to me that there are a lot of people out there that go and work for recruitment agents and think to themselves "I could do this myself and then I'd be rich. Rich I tells ya!" When in actual fact they don't have the slightest clue about what they're doing, how to run a business, market dynamics or basically anything other than cold calling and CV trawling. I'm sure there are some good companies/consultants out there, but they are massively in the minority. What's more because all employers have been repeatedly hacked off with the vast numbers of cowboys, they won't even entertain the good ones, making it harder still. I certainly know I don't entertain contact with recruitment companies and will by default assume that the person on the other end of the phone is a parasite. Unfair, perhaps, but unfortunately also inevitable.
I briefly worked for a company whose entire lead generation model involved sending mailshots to clients with anonymous CVs, and to candidates with job details which may or may not be appropriate in each case. It works, sometimes. They didn't seem to get that generating a couple of bits of interest wasn't worth the hundreds of people they pissed off. They also wanted me to advertise a bunch of fake jobs, which I refused to do...I don't advertise my real jobs, it's largely a time consuming exercise in futility in a talent-short market. I had a few clients I couldn't email because we were blocked from contacting them. I only stayed there a few months.Inevitably mailshotting the candidate database produced lots of interest, most of which was irrelevant for the role. In my view this creates a huge administrative workload to get back to all these people and is therefore a waste of time; in their view you just ignore anyone who isn't right (and their phonecalls). But, you contacted them in the first place!...
Of course, we all require leads and market information to be any good at our job. I ask my candidates where else they're interviewing, and to do me a favour and put me in touch with the hiring manager if the job isn't right for them or they're otherwise unsuccessful, and that I won't interfere in anything they've got ongoing. It works great for me but most of the people I've worked with in the past look at me like I'm mad.
I do wish I'd done this job in the 80s and 90s instead. When the companies were run by the salespeople instead of the HR department, life would have been SO much easier...
I had one just this week. Large multinational company, very specialized 140k+ position, the Director/hiring manager who I've known for several months wants to work with me, the HR woman treats me like a petulant schoolchild and tells me that I have to route all communication through her, if I talk to the hiring manager about anything at all concerning the assignment, I'll be kicked off it and "you will be very closely monitored". Bearing in mind these positions normally go unfilled for six months to a year (largely because of the HR people and their inane processes), and I can do it in six weeks providing I'm given the right access. They don't give a s
t though, protecting their little internal empire is more important than servicing the needs of their company.Every ounce of my being wanted to tell her to f
k off, sadly we are a startup business and we need work. Instead I'll take great pleasure in asking her lots of detailed questions about the job which she can't possibly have the knowledge to answer, and have to go back and bother Mr. Director several times until he gets bored of this and calls me. However, most people just say "ok, no problem" and send CVs to the HR bird on the back of a crappy job description they received along with however many other recruiters. No influence or understanding...but whose fault is this really?
itsnotarace said:
I spent 9 years contracting in IT so have a reasonable amount of experience with recruitment agencies, nearly all of it bad
Once I was with a client for nearly 3 years. After the initial placement I never heard from the agency again, until I negotiated (by myself with the client) a £5 p/h pay rise. The recruitment agency phones up a few days later out of the blue and claims they have negotiated me a £2 per hour pay rise expecting me to be pleased about it. FLOL
Lying bds, the lot of them
But without the agent you wouldn't have got the contract in the first place.Once I was with a client for nearly 3 years. After the initial placement I never heard from the agency again, until I negotiated (by myself with the client) a £5 p/h pay rise. The recruitment agency phones up a few days later out of the blue and claims they have negotiated me a £2 per hour pay rise expecting me to be pleased about it. FLOL
Lying b
ds, the lot of themitsnotarace said:
I spent 9 years contracting in IT so have a reasonable amount of experience with recruitment agencies, nearly all of it bad
Once I was with a client for nearly 3 years. After the initial placement I never heard from the agency again, until I negotiated (by myself with the client) a £5 p/h pay rise. The recruitment agency phones up a few days later out of the blue and claims they have negotiated me a £2 per hour pay rise expecting me to be pleased about it. FLOL
Lying bds, the lot of them
But without the agent you wouldn't have got the contract in the first place.Once I was with a client for nearly 3 years. After the initial placement I never heard from the agency again, until I negotiated (by myself with the client) a £5 p/h pay rise. The recruitment agency phones up a few days later out of the blue and claims they have negotiated me a £2 per hour pay rise expecting me to be pleased about it. FLOL
Lying b
ds, the lot of themHannsG said:
How would you advise someone looking for work in the city?
Sign up with agencies and meet face to face or hammer efinancials, cityjobs or jobserve?
If its IT contracting then my advice would be to look at Jobserve every day. Machine gun your CV to anything that looks ok, BUT make sure the covering letter addresses every requirement in the Job. The Agent will be getting loads of CV's so make their job easy. If its a job you really think is for you, call the agent and point out why.Sign up with agencies and meet face to face or hammer efinancials, cityjobs or jobserve?
Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff