MBA - undergraduate degree first?

[michael_JCWS]

Cranfield has a good reputation a few colleagues did thief MBAs there.

The down side from speaking to them is that every module comes with a 3-4 hour closed book exam, depends on your style of learning, my preference is course work

[anonymous-user]

The truth is it depends on you, I have a friend who runs a very prestigious MBA in the UK, (one of the 'good' ones recommended in the thread), she advised me not to bother and to do the easiest on line one I could in the states, as I have 40years experience most of it overseas she said a Usa one would not look out of place on my cv, also I have fellowships in a couple of chartered institutes, Her advice was spot on for me. But if I was in my 20s I'd be looking at a good one, I know that the Ucl mba is very well respected in the far east, and that several of the big far eastern companies send their employees there.

[johnfm]

This is the joke that tertiary education. How could you expect to get a 'masters' without having a degree?

The answer, of course, is that education is now a business. The more students you can attract, the more money you can make.

Back when education was not a business you couldn't even apply for a master's degree without a first. *

• at my university. I only averaged 79% over four yeRs so could not apply for a masters.

[SVS]

johnfm said:

This is the joke that tertiary education. How could you expect to get a 'masters' without having a degree?

You achieve a Masters by passing the exams The exams are the same for everyone, of course, which means a level playing field. Masters-level study isn't the same as an undergraduate degree, so getting a First doesn't guarantee someone will do well at Masters-level. It's quite possible for anyone to fail the exams.

In addition, an MBA is a post-experience degree course. If the OP has many years management experience, that counts far more than whether or not he could pass a BA in French Literature when he was 20.

944fan said:

Cranfield is about 5 miles from me and I have heard good things about them. Only problem is their course costs mucho denirio so would only be possible if I was getting some additional support from an employer. At this stage I don't know if that will be possible or not.

If you can get the support, not to mention achieving a place at Cranfield, then go for it! Cranfield Management School is well renowned.

[STW2010]

johnfm said:

This is the joke that tertiary education. How could you expect to get a 'masters' without having a degree?

The answer, of course, is that education is now a business. The more students you can attract, the more money you can make.

Back when education was not a business you couldn't even apply for a master's degree without a first. *

• at my university. I only averaged 79% over four yeRs so could not apply for a masters.

I quit a full-time job just after my undergraduate to start a masters degree. The main reason was interest, but another was that I was going to be PAID to take the place (and the income was the same as my job).

That said, you are right. Universities are more business-like now, but that doesn't mean that the standards have necessarily dropped. The MBA at Cranfield I mentioned is not straight forward to secure a place for- if money was the only driver then it would be easy. The fees are in excess of £30k, so that course is a big money-maker (though the costs of running it are also substantial), but keeping the strong reputation of the course is important in the long-term. Accepting anyone on the course, who would then disappoint future employers and lower the value of the MBA, makes no (business) sense at all.

[944fan]

johnfm said:

This is the joke that tertiary education. How could you expect to get a 'masters' without having a degree?

The answer, of course, is that education is now a business. The more students you can attract, the more money you can make.

This is the crux of my concern. Would people view an MBA only as only done half the work or achievement, would it look like I have bought one off the Internet without really putting the effort in. I suppose picking the right course and right business school would offset this a lot.

LooneyTunes said:

OP: several comments/suggestions/things to think about.

1. What you think you want to do post-MBA could well change when you start the course
2. As has been said, the networking side is important
3. Not all schools are as well recognised internationally
4. Different schools have different strengths (in terms of programme, recruiters, and network)
5. The fees seem to keep going up: LBS is now £60k, Oxford/Cambridge/MBS/Cranfield £35-45k
6. It is possible to borrow the fees (whether you think they're worth is it a different matter)
7. Don't rule out US schools on cost: lots offer scholarships for UK students if they like your CV/GMAT

Cranfield sounds great, except the price. It also sounds like if you don't have a degree there is a fairly tough entry process. I could access the money probably but it is a huge undertaking.

I would not in all honesty say I am anything exceptional academically or currently an exceptional leader. I have been fortunate to have a few promotions through hard work, but it has taken me a few years to get there.

I am currently Head of IT for a medium sized firm. My ambitions for the next 10 years are to be IT Director, or CIO/CTO for a larger firm with a view to moving into larger corporates at that level. I am 33 now, so being at that senior position, with an MBA by the time I am in my early-mid forties is what I am aiming for.

I think it is unlikely I would move to work abroad but may well work for an international company so international recognition would be useful.

The Networking side of it does sound important. I used to loathe the idea of networking, party because I was bad at it, but have recently seen the power of it. As a programmer with a bit of experience it is easy to stand out during the recruitment process. However, at senior levels, there are less jobs and more competition and trying to get past the CV gatekeeper is hard.

I recently got a new position and a big part of it was via some networking I had done, which got my CV in front of the MD straight away.

[STW2010]

944fan said:

johnfm said:

This is the joke that tertiary education. How could you expect to get a 'masters' without having a degree?

The answer, of course, is that education is now a business. The more students you can attract, the more money you can make.

This is the crux of my concern. Would people view an MBA only as only done half the work or achievement, would it look like I have bought one off the Internet without really putting the effort in. I suppose picking the right course and right business school would offset this a lot.

No, people would see that you have an MBA as your highest (academic) qualification. That would be the case either way. I doubt anyone would worry about the absence of an undergraduate degree, and might even give you more kudos as a result (i.e. diving in at the deep end).

Think of the whole experience vs academic qualification argument. Employing someone, and you had two candidates in front of you. One has completed a three year degree and has one year relevant experience; the other has four years of practical and relevant experience (i.e. can clearly do the job, but no degree). I suspect a lot of employers would take the latter option. Same analogy with you- loads of experience, promotions and management knowledge, plus an MBA. The fact you didn't do a degree several years before all of that is somewhat irrelevant to an employer.

The bought it off the internet stigma only applies if the MBA is not from a reputable institution.

[SVS]

STW2010 said:

Lots of sound advice.

+1.

In addition, some of the business schools mentioned here are highly renowned. Both Warwick and Cranfield, for example, are high up the list of top Exec MBA programmes in the UK. These are heavyweight qualifications.

Given the time and money needed for a good MBA, you might want to chat to admissions staff at business schools you're considering. They can put you in touch with relevant alumni, so that you can better judge the return on investment. They will have MBA alumni in the IT sector, to whom they can introduce you. It's quite normal for potential MBA applicants to speak to alumni before deciding whether to apply.

Edited by SVS on Saturday 4th January 23:03

[conanius]

I had a similar situation to yours a few years back.

In the end, I went for an undergraduate degree with the Open University. I've gone for doing a BA (Hons) in Leadership and Management, and I'll then look to do my MBA straight after. Current projection is I will finish my degree in 2017.

I don't know what your home situation is like, but you really, really need the support of your family that you are living with. My wife has been a godsend in helping me get through even my degree, let alone the workload of an MBA.

[GadgeS3C]

conanius said:

I had a similar situation to yours a few years back.

In the end, I went for an undergraduate degree with the Open University. I've gone for doing a BA (Hons) in Leadership and Management, and I'll then look to do my MBA straight after. Current projection is I will finish my degree in 2017.

I don't know what your home situation is like, but you really, really need the support of your family that you are living with. My wife has been a godsend in helping me get through even my degree, let alone the workload of an MBA.

Very true about workload. After I finished my OU degree (took 8 years - before they watered down the requirements) I couldn't face further studies for 10 years!

Just completed a Level 7 extended diploma in Strategic Management & Leadership. Now looking to do a top up MBA. At 47 I doubt I'd get the value of a Warwick/Cranfield MBA so am looking at online options. Appreciate I'll miss the networking side of a "proper" MBA, which I'd really enjoy, but hopefully the combination of experience and demonstrating the ability to achieve the academic requirements will be worthwhile.

[944fan]

conanius said:

I don't know what your home situation is like, but you really, really need the support of your family that you are living with. My wife has been a godsend in helping me get through even my degree, let alone the workload of an MBA.

This is a concern/consideration. I am married with two young kids. I have a daily commute of about an hour each way. The kids are still young enough that they go to bed early, but are too young to understand there are times when I will need peace and quiet to concentrate. I wonder if starting in five years or so would be better when our youngest would be 8.

[conanius]

I've managed to do all my level 1 modules, and had just started my level 2 module when my little one arrived at the beginning of December.

Luckily, I was 'clever' and chose a module that I should be able to do easily (M258, Project and IT Service Management)

Unluckily, I didn't realise just how much being tortured by the CIA's latest weapon would impact my ability to feel refreshed from sleep. I honestly think those who have had children would sustain a longer period of torture than those who have not, irrespective of training and prep for it.

That said, my first assignment was due in the day my son was due, and my tutor immediately offered up an extension of just shy of a week. Made a world of difference, and when my wife needed to stay in Hospital for longer than expected, they were willing to give me a bit longer to boot.

I'm unsure how other courses respond, but when I have needed extensions, the OU have been fantastic. My only criticism is some modules don't have face to face tutorials (the last one I did had _NO_ tutorials) and that for me was a major headache as I don't learn well just reading books.

Is your commute by car or on the train? You might be able to cram a bit in on the train and that could be useful.

If you do a degree first, you can do the TMA parts of each module in a couple of nights if you focus (I have done and haven't got less than 75% on any of them) but the EMA's need more time. I find I usually end up doing OU work between 9PM and about 2AM, which works great for me and my wife, but might not work at all for yourself.

[michael_JCWS]

I think once you get into a routine of reading and TMAs it helps. I somehow did my MBA whilst holding down a high pressure job and 3 young children, I think the key for me was being disciplined,, I tended to do 2-3 hours every evening, when the children had gone to bed, then assignments over weekend or take holiday from work, I also found a yearly wall planner with lots of notes and stickers on allowed me to visualise what I needed to do and when.

Really worth doing, not mentally that hard to grasp the concepts, just a case of getting used to being able to structure assignments as the tutors expect to see them and trying to balance home/ work/ MBA

[SVS]

Hi GadgeS3C,

GadgeS3C said:

Now looking to do a top up MBA.

I reckon a top up MBA is almost worthless: see the discussion about top up MBAs here.

If you're after an online Masters that's well recognised, and from a highly reputable business school, how about Ashridge's Masters in Management? Your previous study might give you some credit transfer, which would exempt you from part of the course; you could ask Ashridge about this. It's not cheap, but Ashridge is a good business school.

[GadgeS3C]

SVS said:

Hi GadgeS3C,

GadgeS3C said:

Now looking to do a top up MBA.

I reckon a top up MBA is almost worthless: see the discussion about top up MBAs here.

If you're after an online Masters that's well recognised, and from a highly reputable business school, how about Ashridge's Masters in Management? Your previous study might give you some credit transfer, which would exempt you from part of the course; you could ask Ashridge about this. It's not cheap, but Ashridge is a good business school.

Appreciate that the "cheaper" MBA options aren't regarded in the same way as the high end ones (for good reason) but I've had similar advice to Berw above. That advice came from a friend that has done the Cranfield MBA and has had a number of senior roles.

It's a tough choice but I don't believe the cost/benefit is worthwhile at this stage of my career - much as I'd love to do it.

Do appreciate the advice though!

Edited by GadgeS3C on Sunday 5th January 19:33

[SVS]

Well, I've done a number of senior roles too and I reckon a 'top up MBA' risks worsening your CV. This is because you already have a BA from a respected uni. Recruiters will look at your CV and take into account your university. A degree from the OU is good; it gives your CV academic credibility. The OU looks highly creditable too, because people know you've usually had to study whilst holding down a job.

The universities that offer 'top up MBAs' have much lower standing than the OU. Why would you risk weakening your CV by putting yourself into the "University of Gloucestershire" bracket? A top up MBA will still cost you £3-9k for the privilege! That's money down the drain.

For the same money as a top up MBA, you'd be far wiser investing it in a decent business school: either using it to upgrade your Level 7 qualification to a Masters at Ashridge/Warwick/Henley or investing the money in a decent general management programme. Ashridge's Management Development Programme, for example, costs less than a 'top up MBA' from the University of Sunderland. You might learn more from 5 days at Ashridge than a top up from Sunderland. Plus I'd far rather be an alumnus of Ashridge Business School.

Considering the £3-9k cost of a top up MBA, it's worth thinking what else you could do with the money

[GadgeS3C]

SVS said:

Well, I've done a number of senior roles too and I reckon a 'top up MBA' risks worsening your CV. This is because you already have a BA from a respected uni. Recruiters will look at your CV and take into account your university. A degree from the OU is good; it gives your CV academic credibility. The OU looks highly creditable too, because people know you've usually had to study whilst holding down a job.

The universities that offer 'top up MBAs' have much lower standing than the OU. Why would you risk weakening your CV by putting yourself into the "University of Gloucestershire" bracket? A top up MBA will still cost you £3-9k for the privilege! That's money down the drain.

For the same money as a top up MBA, you'd be far wiser investing it in a decent business school: either using it to upgrade your Level 7 qualification to a Masters at Ashridge/Warwick/Henley or investing the money in a decent general management programme. Ashridge's Management Development Programme, for example, costs less than a 'top up MBA' from the University of Sunderland. You might learn more from 5 days at Ashridge than a top up from Sunderland. Plus I'd far rather be an alumnus of Ashridge Business School.

Considering the £3-9k cost of a top up MBA, it's worth thinking what else you could do with the money

It's fascinating the different perspectives people have on this. Apologies if we're going off topic a little but hopefully this adds to the broader discussion on business qualifications.

When I started the OU degree (It's actually a BSc(Hons) in engineering) the perception was that the OU was the poor man's degree. I was very impressed with the content and disappointed that it was watered down after I did it. I deliberately set out to get a first, partly to show that it might be a "poorer" degree but that I could still do well at it. Having recruited and worked with many engineers from "proper" universities, the OU degree compared very well with the elite end. I think the perception has changed, perhaps sadly because standards have declined elsewhere.

Regarding MBAs, I appreciate the top up option is not as prestigious, but it does give you an MBA. With many recruiters appearing to make yes/no decisions I consider that a factor. If I'm then ruled out because it wasn't the right MBA without taking into account my broader experience then maybe I wouldn't want to be employed there anyway Opinion certainly seems divided on whether a bad MBA is better than no MBA...

I've already done a senior leadership development programme at my last employer that included a week long residential course similar to the Ashridge one you mention. That was delivered by the LBS. The quality of the delivery was excellent but it's still only a week, compared to the Level 7 I recently completed in which I could cover subjects in far more depth. A major reason for doing the recent course was to validate my experience with a qualification - I didn't have any formal business qualification prior to that. Still, your post has made me think I should big that up the LBS course a little more on my CV!

Thanks again - I do appreciate the different perspectives.

[SVS]

Hi GadgeS3C,

GadgeS3C said:

Regarding MBAs, I appreciate the top up option is not as prestigious, but it does give you an MBA. With many recruiters appearing to make yes/no decisions I consider that a factor ... Opinion certainly seems divided on whether a bad MBA is better than no MBA...

I believe some things have changed:

• An MBA doesn't hold the same value it once had, unless it's an MBA from a well respected school (LBS, Oxbridge, WBS, Cranfield, Ashridge, Henley, etc). Consequently, I now see job adverts that require "a postgraduate management qualification", not an MBA specifically.
• Masters in management courses have emerged, some from very prestigious institutions like LBS and Cambridge, as have specialist Masters courses. An MSc from Oxford is going to count more than an MBA from Gloucestershire University!
• The OU has gone up. A degree from the OU is generally well-respected now.

I can imagine that a good postgraduate degree would add value to your CV. My advice would be to upgrade your Level 7 diploma into a Masters from a good school like Henley or Ashridge. Either would add weight to your CV, plus you'd learn much more from them than any 'top up MBA'. Your diploma should be worth 120 CAT points at level M. You only need a total of 180 CAT points at this level to achieve a Masters. At Ashridge, for example, this means you should be exempt from stages 1 and 2 of a Masters in Management. The time and money required will be about the same as a 'top up MBA', but you'll get far better education from Ashridge and gain a much stronger academic qualification. It's a no-brainer, IMO.

GadgeS3C said:

I should big that up the LBS course a little more on my CV!

Completing an executive education programme at LBS is worth a line on your CV, because (a) it shows you've been well trained and (b) your company was prepared to invest in you spending a week at LBS. Though I wouldn't try to pass it off as an academic qualification, because you'll get rumbled.

[GadgeS3C]

Thanks SVS,

Some very useful food for thought there. I'll give that some serious consideration before I decide my next step.

[Dr Jekyll]

SVS said:

johnfm said:

This is the joke that tertiary education. How could you expect to get a 'masters' without having a degree?

You achieve a Masters by passing the exams The exams are the same for everyone, of course, which means a level playing field. Masters-level study isn't the same as an undergraduate degree, so getting a First doesn't guarantee someone will do well at Masters-level. It's quite possible for anyone to fail the exams.

Well said. On my course there was one guy without even a first degree, and a couple with PHDs. The guy without a degree still passed, even the PHDs still found it a challenge.