Got an offer for a job. Recruitment guy seems a little pushy
Discussion
OP the fact that you have 3 interviews shows (particularly in this market and given your relative lack of experience) that your skills are very much in demand. Company A will have budgeted 35k-55k for this position, and they want YOU to fill it, they wouldn't have made an offer otherwise. The RA won't get his commission if you say no, so be brave and tell him to negotiate you a better deal. He knows now that you have 2 other companies interested and this could help him negotiate with Company A on your behalf.
Remember they have the budget for this position, at least start the negotiation at mid-range (£45k) and work from there. As the RA knows about your other interviews now, there's no harm in letting him know how well these went either!
You're in a really strong position here, you don't need to take the mick, but push for what you're worth (and as they've offered you the position, thats somewhere in the 35-55k range).
Good luck.
Remember they have the budget for this position, at least start the negotiation at mid-range (£45k) and work from there. As the RA knows about your other interviews now, there's no harm in letting him know how well these went either!
You're in a really strong position here, you don't need to take the mick, but push for what you're worth (and as they've offered you the position, thats somewhere in the 35-55k range).
Good luck.
Gah I'm probably not doing myself any favours and doing this all wrong. I am not very good at this negotiation lark.
They called back today with a new offer. The base pay went up by 3k and they added in some extra pension contributions and also private healthcare. Add in an undisclosed bonus (there will be one as the whole group receives some kind of yearly bonus, but the head of the new engineering dept is also pushing for a separate engineering bonus - presumably as and when they start to make money).
I haven't done the maths, but ball park, total package is pretty close to 35
I think the health care is a bit of red herring though as given I am only 28, eat healthy and still train 5-6 times a week (gym and swim training - in my teens I used to swim 70 km a week, every week, for years!) I don't envisage myself dropping dead or coming down with serious conditions any time soon. However, a friend has said it is a good thing to have. Not sold on it yet.
Anyway, also been in touch with the guy who owns the recruitment agency. He was much nicer, wants me to go to these other interviews if it helps make up my mind. After all he doesn't want to force me into the role he has to fill only for me to get cold feet 6 months in and leave them all in the lurch. He's good friends with the hiring manager and wants to retain his business. I did verbally accept the offer after thinking and talking it over with my OH, but the consultancy owner has decided to withdraw that verbal acceptance and go with a "he's 80-90% there, but wants to go to the other interviews to so he can make a better informed decision. We should have confirmation either way on Friday". So no formal acceptance, nothing in writing, just a 80-90% sure. RA owner is happy for me and wants me to attend these interviews.
I am happy with this so far. I feel that come friday I may be in a position to try play them off each other. Apparently this first company really want me on board, but I haven't yet felt confident enough to say if they want me, then they'll bloody well pay for me! If they're willing to forget about me over a few more £k then they obviously didn't. But I don't want to come across as greedy or hard work. I am also scared of extorting all this money from them and then not performing as they expect!
Also apparently there wasn't a lower bound for the salary. I did say it was advertised at 35-55 and therefore I want 35 as minimum but the actual specs are 50 k tops and no lower bound. Slight embellishment on the RAs part I suspect to capture more interest.
To those who are having a go about engineers pay, then I totally agree. Sadly I think this sort of thing has been going on so long that engineers are expected to work for those salaries as a normal. I certainly don't think I'll be stuck down at this level forever though, it is entirely possible to earn very excellent money as an engineer.
On the whole I have to look at this as the whole picture. Yes the base salary is kinda low, the benefits are ok. But, it is a small company, they are just starting down the path of engineering development for the first time and there is great opportunity here to get my hands dirty with everything from air handling, fuel injection, engine mapping, combustion, modelling with FEA, CFD, turbochargers, after treatment etc and being involved from cradle to grave. A big company may be willing and able to pay more, but can they offer that kind of learning opportunity? The number of new skills I can potentially add to my roster here is massive and my work will have genuine impact.
Additionally the commute is excellent (a big tick on my list if I am honest. I value my free time greatly) and relocation costs minimal which all pluses in the grand scheme.
If in two years time the salary prospects haven't really improved then I can always leave for something else. I'll hardly be any less employable than I am now.
They called back today with a new offer. The base pay went up by 3k and they added in some extra pension contributions and also private healthcare. Add in an undisclosed bonus (there will be one as the whole group receives some kind of yearly bonus, but the head of the new engineering dept is also pushing for a separate engineering bonus - presumably as and when they start to make money).
I haven't done the maths, but ball park, total package is pretty close to 35
I think the health care is a bit of red herring though as given I am only 28, eat healthy and still train 5-6 times a week (gym and swim training - in my teens I used to swim 70 km a week, every week, for years!) I don't envisage myself dropping dead or coming down with serious conditions any time soon. However, a friend has said it is a good thing to have. Not sold on it yet.
Anyway, also been in touch with the guy who owns the recruitment agency. He was much nicer, wants me to go to these other interviews if it helps make up my mind. After all he doesn't want to force me into the role he has to fill only for me to get cold feet 6 months in and leave them all in the lurch. He's good friends with the hiring manager and wants to retain his business. I did verbally accept the offer after thinking and talking it over with my OH, but the consultancy owner has decided to withdraw that verbal acceptance and go with a "he's 80-90% there, but wants to go to the other interviews to so he can make a better informed decision. We should have confirmation either way on Friday". So no formal acceptance, nothing in writing, just a 80-90% sure. RA owner is happy for me and wants me to attend these interviews.
I am happy with this so far. I feel that come friday I may be in a position to try play them off each other. Apparently this first company really want me on board, but I haven't yet felt confident enough to say if they want me, then they'll bloody well pay for me! If they're willing to forget about me over a few more £k then they obviously didn't. But I don't want to come across as greedy or hard work. I am also scared of extorting all this money from them and then not performing as they expect!
Also apparently there wasn't a lower bound for the salary. I did say it was advertised at 35-55 and therefore I want 35 as minimum but the actual specs are 50 k tops and no lower bound. Slight embellishment on the RAs part I suspect to capture more interest.
To those who are having a go about engineers pay, then I totally agree. Sadly I think this sort of thing has been going on so long that engineers are expected to work for those salaries as a normal. I certainly don't think I'll be stuck down at this level forever though, it is entirely possible to earn very excellent money as an engineer.
On the whole I have to look at this as the whole picture. Yes the base salary is kinda low, the benefits are ok. But, it is a small company, they are just starting down the path of engineering development for the first time and there is great opportunity here to get my hands dirty with everything from air handling, fuel injection, engine mapping, combustion, modelling with FEA, CFD, turbochargers, after treatment etc and being involved from cradle to grave. A big company may be willing and able to pay more, but can they offer that kind of learning opportunity? The number of new skills I can potentially add to my roster here is massive and my work will have genuine impact.
Additionally the commute is excellent (a big tick on my list if I am honest. I value my free time greatly) and relocation costs minimal which all pluses in the grand scheme.
If in two years time the salary prospects haven't really improved then I can always leave for something else. I'll hardly be any less employable than I am now.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Tuesday 8th April 16:35
Great Post,
Now lets see the angry mob saying all RA's are the same, just want the money, lying scumbags etc.
Your Agency sounds like a good outfit, yes the pressure sometimes can by misplaced, but for many agents at the bottom of the chain, if they don't place, they are OUT of a job.
Best of luck with it, you only change jobs every three to five years (mostly) so a few extra days to make the right choice for you is an investment.
Now lets see the angry mob saying all RA's are the same, just want the money, lying scumbags etc.
Your Agency sounds like a good outfit, yes the pressure sometimes can by misplaced, but for many agents at the bottom of the chain, if they don't place, they are OUT of a job.
Best of luck with it, you only change jobs every three to five years (mostly) so a few extra days to make the right choice for you is an investment.
Thanks gargamel
Additionally I have been able to use my contacts to get some further insights into companies B and C and this has given me a better feeling for what salary I should expect and what work will be like. I still want to go through with the interviews to be sure though. I'll feel bad for wasting their time if I cancel, but also if I go and I decide I don't like it, so I can't win.
At B the renumeration will likely be lower than A, but offset by the prestige of working in motorsport (I met a McLaren Aerodynamics expert once....he was paid pittance and told everyone in no uncertain terms that a lot of motorsport jobs are jobs you do for the love of the sport and as such, many will do it for low pay, not sure how true that is, but I have heard it more than once).
At C, the renumeration is likely to be higher but not significantly so and likely offset by relocation and house prices. Though from what I have heard the work sounds very interesting. I guess I will know for sure tomorrow!
So, I know to some of you on here, the salary is looking low, but I suspect for someone with my level of ability and relative lack of experience (2 years working at a large steam turbine manufacturer and 3.5 years PhD at a Uni, albeit on a project for a large tier one off-highway supplier) that what has been offered now is very reasonable and a decent starting point to get my career going.
Thanks all for your advice, it has helped me out this morning in fighting my corner with the agencey!
Additionally I have been able to use my contacts to get some further insights into companies B and C and this has given me a better feeling for what salary I should expect and what work will be like. I still want to go through with the interviews to be sure though. I'll feel bad for wasting their time if I cancel, but also if I go and I decide I don't like it, so I can't win.
At B the renumeration will likely be lower than A, but offset by the prestige of working in motorsport (I met a McLaren Aerodynamics expert once....he was paid pittance and told everyone in no uncertain terms that a lot of motorsport jobs are jobs you do for the love of the sport and as such, many will do it for low pay, not sure how true that is, but I have heard it more than once).
At C, the renumeration is likely to be higher but not significantly so and likely offset by relocation and house prices. Though from what I have heard the work sounds very interesting. I guess I will know for sure tomorrow!
So, I know to some of you on here, the salary is looking low, but I suspect for someone with my level of ability and relative lack of experience (2 years working at a large steam turbine manufacturer and 3.5 years PhD at a Uni, albeit on a project for a large tier one off-highway supplier) that what has been offered now is very reasonable and a decent starting point to get my career going.
Thanks all for your advice, it has helped me out this morning in fighting my corner with the agencey!
OP it sounds from your previous post (where you listed all those pros) that you've more or less made your mind up. All I would say is try to go to the other interviews with as open a mind as possible. I made the mistake coming out of uni of falling for the patter of the first company I interviewed with and was disinterested at my next interview and cancelled the third one I had altogether; and to be honest I regretted it further down the line. Disregard what people have told you about B&C, go see them all, then sit down with your OH and try and make a list of pros/cons like you just did for Company A. Often in job negotiations people get caught up on the basic wage figure (as I did in my previous post) so well done for factoring in everything. Do that with the other 2 companies and I'm sure you'll have a better idea of what you want.
Alex,
Only just spotted this - glad the CV is working, fantastic things are working out.
Sounds like you have pretty much decided. Regarding salary, the easiest pay rise you are ever likely to get is the extra you negotiate when starting a role. It's often much tougher to get them once you get into a company. By then you can be seen as a captive audience.
You have 1st class degree and a PhD in a relevant field + some work experience. If the salary range is £35-50k then why shouldn't you be at the top or at least the middle? A great opportunity to develop some commercial skills and negotiate - don't sell yourself short.
Don't underestimate health care. Stuff happens regardless of how fit you are. Not having to wait several months for treatment can be very valuable. I fell and injured my shoulder many years ago. BUPA paid for the physio to sort it. At the time my GP told me there was nothing that could be done...
Anyway - great position to be in.
Good luck.
Gary
Only just spotted this - glad the CV is working, fantastic things are working out.
Sounds like you have pretty much decided. Regarding salary, the easiest pay rise you are ever likely to get is the extra you negotiate when starting a role. It's often much tougher to get them once you get into a company. By then you can be seen as a captive audience.
You have 1st class degree and a PhD in a relevant field + some work experience. If the salary range is £35-50k then why shouldn't you be at the top or at least the middle? A great opportunity to develop some commercial skills and negotiate - don't sell yourself short.
Don't underestimate health care. Stuff happens regardless of how fit you are. Not having to wait several months for treatment can be very valuable. I fell and injured my shoulder many years ago. BUPA paid for the physio to sort it. At the time my GP told me there was nothing that could be done...
Anyway - great position to be in.
Good luck.
Gary
If a role was advertised at 35-50k, I would assume the 35k is the starting point for basic salary, and benefits on top. Don't sell yourself short - as mentioned above, your starting salary is key and is the one most open to negotiation. I sold myself short when I first started out (my manager even told me so after I'd started in the role!) so a few years later I had to move companies to get a large step change.
hornetrider said:
If a role was advertised at 35-50k, I would assume the 35k is the starting point for basic salary, and benefits on top. Don't sell yourself short - as mentioned above, your starting salary is key and is the one most open to negotiation. I sold myself short when I first started out (my manager even told me so after I'd started in the role!) so a few years later I had to move companies to get a large step change.
Totally agree with this. Pay progression usually is very slow once you are "in", the best opportunity for a jump that makes a difference to your bank balance at the end of the month is when going for a new job.Otispunkmeyer said:
Anyway, also been in touch with the guy who owns the recruitment agency. He was much nicer, wants me to go to these other interviews if it helps make up my mind. After all he doesn't want to force me into the role he has to fill only for me to get cold feet 6 months in and leave them all in the lurch. He's good friends with the hiring manager and wants to retain his business. I did verbally accept the offer after thinking and talking it over with my OH, but the consultancy owner has decided to withdraw that verbal acceptance and go with a "he's 80-90% there, but wants to go to the other interviews to so he can make a better informed decision. We should have confirmation either way on Friday". So no formal acceptance, nothing in writing, just a 80-90% sure. RA owner is happy for me and wants me to attend these interviews.
My cynical head says that this change of attitude on their part is to give them a chance to do as you're doing, re-assess other options! 
Otispunkmeyer said:
I think the health care is a bit of red herring though as given I am only 28, eat healthy and still train 5-6 times a week (gym and swim training - in my teens I used to swim 70 km a week, every week, for years!) I don't envisage myself dropping dead or coming down with serious conditions any time soon. However, a friend has said it is a good thing to have. Not sold on it yet.
When I was 24 I had a freak accident and broke both the bones in my left forearm. At the A&E I was told that I needed an operation within 24 hours or I may lose some or all of the use of my hand, but that the earliest they could do it was in 36 hours. Thanks to my private healthcare I was operated on within 12 hours- two operations and £20k of healthcare and physio costs later I still have all my limbs in good working order.Don't discount private healthcare just because you're young and in good health.
Alfa numeric said:
When I was 24 I had a freak accident and broke both the bones in my left forearm. At the A&E I was told that I needed an operation within 24 hours or I may lose some or all of the use of my hand, but that the earliest they could do it was in 36 hours. Thanks to my private healthcare I was operated on within 12 hours- two operations and £20k of healthcare and physio costs later I still have all my limbs in good working order.
Don't discount private healthcare just because you're young and in good health.
Totally agree on this one. Whilst healthy living is a good thing to be doing, you can't control some factors that can result in a radical change in circumstances. In some cases, having private healthcare can result in a significant change in the end result. It's worth having even for those 'some' cases.Don't discount private healthcare just because you're young and in good health.
Don't expect anyone to praise a recruitment consultant but that's very enlightened behaviour from the owner of the business. Good for him.
Make the right decision for you. What I would suggest is to try and hurry the process along as far as possible - tell company B that you have another offer and don't want to keep them waiting forever. If you can have a good idea by the end of this week and tell company A one way or another then I think that is fairest to everyone.
But do make sure not to be seen as playing one company off against another. You're looking at the whole picture in terms of career, enjoyment of the job and so forth, not just trying to squeeze an extra few quid out.
Make the right decision for you. What I would suggest is to try and hurry the process along as far as possible - tell company B that you have another offer and don't want to keep them waiting forever. If you can have a good idea by the end of this week and tell company A one way or another then I think that is fairest to everyone.
But do make sure not to be seen as playing one company off against another. You're looking at the whole picture in terms of career, enjoyment of the job and so forth, not just trying to squeeze an extra few quid out.
conanius said:
Alfa numeric said:
When I was 24 I had a freak accident and broke both the bones in my left forearm. At the A&E I was told that I needed an operation within 24 hours or I may lose some or all of the use of my hand, but that the earliest they could do it was in 36 hours. Thanks to my private healthcare I was operated on within 12 hours- two operations and £20k of healthcare and physio costs later I still have all my limbs in good working order.
Don't discount private healthcare just because you're young and in good health.
Totally agree on this one. Whilst healthy living is a good thing to be doing, you can't control some factors that can result in a radical change in circumstances. In some cases, having private healthcare can result in a significant change in the end result. It's worth having even for those 'some' cases.Don't discount private healthcare just because you're young and in good health.
Fit and healthy does not reduce the chance of serious injury, or the chances of illness.
Alfa numeric said:
When I was 24 I had a freak accident and broke both the bones in my left forearm. At the A&E I was told that I needed an operation within 24 hours or I may lose some or all of the use of my hand, but that the earliest they could do it was in 36 hours. Thanks to my private healthcare I was operated on within 12 hours- two operations and £20k of healthcare and physio costs later I still have all my limbs in good working order.
Don't discount private healthcare just because you're young and in good health.
Agreed. To echo this, I broke my neck and dislocated my spine in 3 places 10 years ago (when I was 17). I spent 3 weeks strapped to a bed in an NHS hospital (including a night by myself in a linen cupboard because the ward was full) and they sent me home having missed the dislocations altogether! Fortunately my mum realised my neck wasn't sitting straight and went private. I saw one of the UKs top spinal surgeons within 24 hours and he operated on my spine the same day. I haven't had a single problem since - I literally owe my life to private healthcare, so regardless of lifestyle it could be invaluable.Don't discount private healthcare just because you're young and in good health.
Just take A.
Now normally I rant at you for being an overassuming a
hole but for once Im not going to. Ignore the 35-55k mob. You only have 2yrs experience and you are 28. You arent worth more than 35k right now and they have given you a deal bang on the nail. Two yrs in this job will add 5k to your salary for your next position if you are half decent.
Now normally I rant at you for being an overassuming a
hole but for once Im not going to. Ignore the 35-55k mob. You only have 2yrs experience and you are 28. You arent worth more than 35k right now and they have given you a deal bang on the nail. Two yrs in this job will add 5k to your salary for your next position if you are half decent.DJRC said:
Just take A.
Now normally I rant at you for being an overassuming ahole but for once Im not going to. Ignore the 35-55k mob. You only have 2yrs experience and you are 28. You arent worth more than 35k right now and they have given you a deal bang on the nail. Two yrs in this job will add 5k to your salary for your next position if you are half decent.
Bloody hell, my apologies for me being pushy if that's the market rate for 1st class degree + post grad and some experience at age 28! Now normally I rant at you for being an overassuming a
hole but for once Im not going to. Ignore the 35-55k mob. You only have 2yrs experience and you are 28. You arent worth more than 35k right now and they have given you a deal bang on the nail. Two yrs in this job will add 5k to your salary for your next position if you are half decent.I'm secretly glad I messed around at Uni now and ended up having to fall into IT as a last resort now, as I really fancied doing something in engineering.
I'm trying to remember exact details but I'm sure I was on more or less £35k in the late nineties at age 28, and that was before the millenium bug bonus+overtime bonanza.
DJRC said:
Just take A.
Now normally I rant at you for being an overassuming ahole but for once Im not going to. Ignore the 35-55k mob. You only have 2yrs experience and you are 28. You arent worth more than 35k right now and they have given you a deal bang on the nail. Two yrs in this job will add 5k to your salary for your next position if you are half decent.
Normally I try to ignore you because you come across as a complete dick head. You're far too abrasive and for no reason. You must be sNow normally I rant at you for being an overassuming a
hole but for once Im not going to. Ignore the 35-55k mob. You only have 2yrs experience and you are 28. You arent worth more than 35k right now and they have given you a deal bang on the nail. Two yrs in this job will add 5k to your salary for your next position if you are half decent.t hot or have epic skills to be where you are because I don't think there are many that would put up with such abrasiveness. I knew a man once who was very curt in his action, he was a complete arse to people. He'd call the bosses s to their faces in meetings and even bring up his dead wife to win an argument. Needless to say, he might have been the best metallurgist in the area but he didn't go very far and retired in position not much better than he started in.But you are right on the money, begrudgingly. Sort of. Depending who's doing the hiring 35 is attainable even without experience. I have two mates at JLR who can atest. However, I have been able to ask around and can confirm high 20's-low 30s for what I want to do is the going rate at most places. My expectations were out of kilter. My interview today at B confirmed this as well, they expect to offer 27 as a minimum, 30 tops for similar work in the Nuclear business.
Now don't bother commenting on any of my posts or threads again if you're going to play the angry man. You don't like me and I don't much like you (even if you are generally right in what you say). I think its best for our blood pressures if we steer clear of each other yeah?
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Wednesday 9th April 20:20
prand said:
Bloody hell, my apologies for me being pushy if that's the market rate for 1st class degree + post grad and some experience at age 28!
I'm secretly glad I messed around at Uni now and ended up having to fall into IT as a last resort now, as I really fancied doing something in engineering.
I'm trying to remember exact details but I'm sure I was on more or less £35k in the late nineties at age 28, and that was before the millenium bug bonus+overtime bonanza.
engineering, especially the research and development kind isn't that well paid i don't think. This is will be my first post PhD job, its a decent start!. I'm secretly glad I messed around at Uni now and ended up having to fall into IT as a last resort now, as I really fancied doing something in engineering.
I'm trying to remember exact details but I'm sure I was on more or less £35k in the late nineties at age 28, and that was before the millenium bug bonus+overtime bonanza.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Wednesday 9th April 18:19
Otispunkmeyer said:
prand said:
Bloody hell, my apologies for me being pushy if that's the market rate for 1st class degree + post grad and some experience at age 28!
I'm secretly glad I messed around at Uni now and ended up having to fall into IT as a last resort now, as I really fancied doing something in engineering.
I'm trying to remember exact details but I'm sure I was on more or less £35k in the late nineties at age 28, and that was before the millenium bug bonus+overtime bonanza.
engineering, especially the research and development kind isn't that well paid i don't think. This is will be my first post PhD job, its a decent start!. I'm secretly glad I messed around at Uni now and ended up having to fall into IT as a last resort now, as I really fancied doing something in engineering.
I'm trying to remember exact details but I'm sure I was on more or less £35k in the late nineties at age 28, and that was before the millenium bug bonus+overtime bonanza.
Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Wednesday 9th April 18:19
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