Got an offer for a job. Recruitment guy seems a little pushy

[AJS-]

Regarding salaries - you're worth what you're worth. Most times people move jobs they get a 15-25% increase depending on a number of factors. Getting more than that usually involves some considerable sacrifice somewhere else. Sometimes something like going offshore, a serious jump up in responsibility or a step down in terms of career progression or job satisfaction.

Sometimes people are overlooked or under valued and can go above that but it's the exception not the rule. Equally sometimes people move for no increase or even take a hit if it suits their lifestyle better, is a job they love or opens up a better career path.

£35k at 28 is not breadline wages at all despite being more like a day rate to PHers, and if you get a few years good, transferable experience it will rise with time.

Go for the job that you think will have benefited you most in 5 years time, whatever that means to you.

[prand]

Pit Pony said:

28 ? That's too old to be pissing about with a graduate stating salary plus 10% in my humble opinion.

My thoughts too. Yes I know all this talking about being pushy for higher pay is a bit undignified and it's certainly not the whole reason for working somewhere,, but it takes 5 minutes to put in a counter offer that you may feel is a bit cheeky. Don't be shy and undervalue yourself as you may regret it, particularly when your firm starts expanding and they can only get hold of people on £15k plus more than you are being paid and you end up training them.

Worse still you get promoted to manage a team and your promotion is capped at 10% by HR policy and your team are all still earning more than you.

Please don't underestimate this opportunity, if you like this job but you have a gnawing feeling you could have just been a bit more upfront with your salary expectations.

Good luck either way!

Edited by prand on Wednesday 9th April 19:50

[Otispunkmeyer]

Pit Pony said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

prand said:

Bloody hell, my apologies for me being pushy if that's the market rate for 1st class degree + post grad and some experience at age 28!

I'm secretly glad I messed around at Uni now and ended up having to fall into IT as a last resort now, as I really fancied doing something in engineering.

I'm trying to remember exact details but I'm sure I was on more or less £35k in the late nineties at age 28, and that was before the millenium bug bonus+overtime bonanza.

engineering, especially the research and development kind isn't that well paid i don't think. This is will be my first post PhD job, its a decent start!.

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Wednesday 9th April 18:19

28 ? That's too old to be pissing about with a graduate stating salary plus 10% in my humble opinion.

Thems the breaks seemingly. I'll get chartered, get a few years under my belt and more than likely experience of running projects end to end and I'll see where I can go from there. I think I'll be in stronger position to negotiate money then.

I've got one more interview tomorrow and I'll see how that goes. But A is winning at the moment. If I play my cards right and we crack the development on the product then hopefully it'll put me in good stead. Of all 3 options I have, A is the riskiest proposition by far as its a new venture (albeit in a established business, but not one that can sustain huge spending or losses for long periods like a big company can....in 3 years time it might all be canned, who knows!), it'll be a small team and if it takes off, I'll have been a big part of its success. If the company then expands further, I think that would put me in a with a decent chance to be in a more senior/managerial role, having been there from the very beginning.

Edited by Otispunkmeyer on Wednesday 9th April 20:31

[Otispunkmeyer]

prand said:

Pit Pony said:

28 ? That's too old to be pissing about with a graduate stating salary plus 10% in my humble opinion.

My thoughts too. Yes I know all this talking about being pushy for higher pay is a bit undignified and it's certainly not the whole reason for working somewhere,, but it takes 5 minutes to put in a counter offer that you may feel is a bit cheeky. Don't be shy and undervalue yourself as you may regret it, particularly when your firm starts expanding and they can only get hold of people on £15k plus more than you are being paid and you end up training them.

Worse still you get promoted to manage a team and your promotion is capped at 10% by HR policy and your team are all still earning more than you.

Please don't underestimate this opportunity, if you like this job but you have a gnawing feeling you could have just been a bit more upfront with your salary expectations.

Good luck either way!

Edited by prand on Wednesday 9th April 19:50

Well, in essence.... I am a graduate in the eyes of many employers, a graduate with 2 years of decent industry experience tops. A PhD obviously shows you work at a higher level, but if its not relevant, is the the employer willing to pay extra for it? Someone once told me a PhD is perhaps the most selfish thing you can do. You don't do them for anyone else but yourself and that title of Dr.

The PhD was for a large Tier one engine/plant manufacturer, so it is at least on the surface, a bit more useful than say a PhD spent on a CFD study of gnats fart given the exposure to industry processes.

I will get where I want to be. I don't doubt that. I would like to start a bit higher, but this is far from terrible.

On your last comment, I know someone who is almost exactly in that position working for a civil engineering company. She joined in the recession, but now things are better she's found out that recent grad employees are on almost as much as she is. She likes her job too much to go in and ask for more money, but we've all told her she needs to (with a big list of the good things she's done in her time there to justify it, not just that the grads are earning the same) or she needs to start looking elsewhere. She's got the experience under her belt to warrant it.

[STW2010]

Otispunkmeyer said:

Well, in essence.... I am a graduate in the eyes of many employers, a graduate with 2 years of decent industry experience tops. A PhD obviously shows you work at a higher level, but if its not relevant, is the the employer willing to pay extra for it? Someone once told me a PhD is perhaps the most selfish thing you can do. You don't do them for anyone else but yourself and that title of Dr.

You really are good at under-selling.

You don't do any degree for someone else, so let's clear that up straight away. Anyone that starts a PhD just for the title is likely to fail, as it requires serious commitment and motivation which won't be there if the topic isn't of interest.

A PhD is almost like a research apprenticeship- the successful completion demonstrates that you have a solid understanding of how to do research, manage your own programme of work (i.e. project management), can communicate effectively (spoken and written) to your peers and have a level of expertise in your particular area. That is just the tip of the iceberg.

So, think more of your achievements. Not many people have PhDs, but those who do have CONSIDERABLE transferable skills. I have these conversations with my MSc and PhD students- people need to learn how to sell themselves, even if that means becoming slightly arrogant (but not deluded) about their skills.

[okgo]

A mate of mine had that similar mentality, we both work in sales jobs and though he is now 30 and I'm 26 we have similar levels of experience (he did a few too many ski seasons!), in sales we see a lot of £xk basic £xxk OTE, he wouldn't even bother applying or going for roles with numbers that he thought were beyond him. Granted some of the roles were a bit far fetched, like the one you posted to a certain extent, where the band would cover new grad all the way through to seasoned master, but even still, push for the most you can get was always my thoughts, you don't really get payrises in jobs unless the promotion is a big one, so this is the time to set out your stall perhaps...

The upshot of that is now that my mate he is earning £30k as he thinks that is his level while I've moved quickly through the salary brackets (2.5x his) and am now in a very good position for the future while he will spend years earning st money for no real reason. All because he had the same mentality of "oh, that is a lot more money, I won't get that" - he who dares and all that.

I should imagine with your qualifications you are not the everyday candidate, make it work for you

[GadgeS3C]

At a previous employer PhDs entered at a higher job grade than graduates and were usually fast tracked into more senior roles.

Engineering PhDs are fairly rare and give you significant bargaining power.

Until engineers do start valuing themselves I've have to keep reading how poorly paid a profession it is and why no-one wants to do it.

[DJRC]

Gah will you lot with jack st of a clue about this knock it off?? This is his 1st thread where he is actually understanding reality! £35k is exactly where he is right now. In 2-3yrs he can look at a 40k job. Its a perfect base from which to move into the 500/day world. But you need that base in first and that is 5+ yrs industry experience.

[okgo]

Is that normal, 2-3 years being worth £5k more? That seems low!! (obviously you know about this industry)

[Otispunkmeyer]

okgo said:

A mate of mine had that similar mentality, we both work in sales jobs and though he is now 30 and I'm 26 we have similar levels of experience (he did a few too many ski seasons!), in sales we see a lot of £xk basic £xxk OTE, he wouldn't even bother applying or going for roles with numbers that he thought were beyond him. Granted some of the roles were a bit far fetched, like the one you posted to a certain extent, where the band would cover new grad all the way through to seasoned master, but even still, push for the most you can get was always my thoughts, you don't really get payrises in jobs unless the promotion is a big one, so this is the time to set out your stall perhaps...

The upshot of that is now that my mate he is earning £30k as he thinks that is his level while I've moved quickly through the salary brackets (2.5x his) and am now in a very good position for the future while he will spend years earning st money for no real reason. All because he had the same mentality of "oh, that is a lot more money, I won't get that" - he who dares and all that.

I should imagine with your qualifications you are not the everyday candidate, make it work for you

I don't have an attitude of "this is a lot of money". Its not. But its not bread line either. After 3 interviews and a lot of digging through contacts, that is the going rate for an Engineering PhD + a little experience in a R&D type of role at a smaller engineering firm in the midlands. If I got to JLR and they accept me, they'll put me on 35K basic right off the bat, but I'll be doing one job and one job only. At B for example they'll offer 27K on a 1 year grad scheme (as opposed to the normal 2 year grad scheme). I think my level of experience does prohibit asking for more.... trust me I did ask for more and I didn't get it. In a few years, if this job choice pays off (it is the riskiest of the 3) I'll have a much stronger bargaining chip to start demanding the kinds of salaries people are talking about here.

[Otispunkmeyer]

okgo said:

Is that normal, 2-3 years being worth £5k more? That seems low!! (obviously you know about this industry)

Thinking about it I would suspect so. Engineering is rather conservative in many areas and people won't consider you to be an expert worthy of very high pay without years and years of experience to back it. Progression can just take longer because some of the subjects in engineering really do need significant time to become truly expert at things.

Having said that, I think some of the engineering salary moans are because people don't realise that a lot of degree qualified engineers don't have job titles with the word engineer in them, even though they are still involved with an engineering business. Most of my friends now from my MEng year have been working 5 or so years and some are floating in the high £30k's with company cars etc. They'll have started on mid £20's as grads, so looking at around 10k + improvement in 5 years regardless of company size. All still work within engineering.... most don't have engineer in their job title. They're not designing widgets or doing CAD, they're managing engineering problems at a higher level instead or they're becoming expert at something the folks in O&G are willing to pay handsomely for (fine if you can live with doing endless CFD and flow assurance on pipe work).

At this point in time I will be behind my friends in salary terms. However, I expect that I should be able to close the gap in the same time frame.

Finally, there is a lot to be said for choosing a job for other reasons than salary. As it happens I think I'm someway to getting the best of both worlds in my current position.

[okgo]

Makes sense then. Good luck.

The numbers really do make it clear as to why people take those degree's elsewhere in the job market, or go contracting as soon as possible. £10k in five years is shocking for a professional person. The same time frame in Law you are talking £40k at a decent firm I would have thought.

[Otispunkmeyer]

okgo said:

Makes sense then. Good luck.

The numbers really do make it clear as to why people take those degree's elsewhere in the job market, or go contracting as soon as possible. £10k in five years is shocking for a professional person. The same time frame in Law you are talking £40k at a decent firm I would have thought.

I couldn't do law, it just holds no interest, so they can pay their guys what they like! It wouldn't make me wish I'd gone down that route. Different strokes and all that.

I think today, people are very short termist and it can be hard for engineers to deliver on short term timescales like say sales guys can (i.e. you have a monthly sales target, you beat it, you are quids in). Heck you may not even realise how good a job was done until later down the line when people have moved on. You can't reward someone who no longer works for you.

I may suggest as well that a lot of engineers like job security. Plenty of engineers I have met on my travels have worked in the same company all their lives. Its a safe haven, they don't move about and can quickly get stuck in specialist roles only valuable to the company they work for and of little interest to many outside companies. Those who generally move about a bit, tend to earn more and have a broader base of skills to go with. They're more adaptable to lots of different situations... jacks of all trades. I think its better to be like that, especially early on. The time for specialising comes when you're much older.

I would think there a plenty of engineers earning lots of money like other professions. DJRC, if he is to be believed, is one example. You just have to play the game right and I would guess, be good at more than just engineering. DJRC do you have the word "engineer" in your job title/description?

[BigBen]

Otispunkmeyer said:

I couldn't do law, it just holds no interest, so they can pay their guys what they like! It wouldn't make me wish I'd gone down that route. Different strokes and all that.

That is the point and good to see you know your own mind. Most engineering graduates could go and earn a lot more working in the city, but that is not as likely to make you tick as inventing new stuff.

£5k rise in the first few years sounds a bit low to me, but I am outside of the automotive field. £35k does not sound like a bad starting engineer's salary but I would hope it will go up more quickly post qualification.

Ben (Engineer in job title and proud of it)

[Pit Pony]

BigBen said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

I couldn't do law, it just holds no interest, so they can pay their guys what they like! It wouldn't make me wish I'd gone down that route. Different strokes and all that.

That is the point and good to see you know your own mind. Most engineering graduates could go and earn a lot more working in the city, but that is not as likely to make you tick as inventing new stuff.

£5k rise in the first few years sounds a bit low to me, but I am outside of the automotive field. £35k does not sound like a bad starting engineer's salary but I would hope it will go up more quickly post qualification.

Ben (Engineer in job title and proud of it)

I did a bit of digging today.

Starting Salary at our country's "number one engineering brand" for Engineers is about £29K. Plus a £3.5 Handshake.

Engineers with PHD sponsored by them, would bypass the graduate scheme and go in as a 'direct entry, and would see £35K to £40K depending on how important the skills that person has, so I may have over-egged what you might expect.

But then again, none management Senior Engineers with 15 years experience can expect to top out at £45 to £50K.

Get onto the proper Management scale and there's a big jump beyond that.

[santona1937]

It is fascinating to read this thread. I had always thought that PhD Engineers were very well paid right from the start. Obviously not. £35k is certainly not starvation wages no matter ones' age, and for a starting salary not too shabby. In some careers it can take many years to earn " real" money, this seems like one of them. Like has been said so many times if you do what you love eventually everything else will fall into place.

[Martin_M]

hman said:

Go to the other interviews, the Recruitment consultant doesn't want you picking another job which he has not put you forward for and therefore will not be getting any bonus for.


Take your time and choose wisely.

This, my other half works in recruitment - they make their money when you get the job and stay there for a minimum period of time. Go for as many interviews as you can! Good luck!

[DJRC]

Do I have engineer in my job title? Ha, now that is touching on an amusing/depressing/ironic/risible/touchy subject! Id suggest delete as you feel appropriate, but I wont as they are all valid keywords. To cut a long story short I sent an email to my boss last week basically saying "we don't have job titles out on site anymore, we are just a bunch of blokes trying their absolute best to do anything we can to deliver." The more formal answer is I cant give you one because we don't currently have a valid organagram/organisation chart with job titles either internally or to give to the customer. No, Im not being awkward, im giving you the level truth. And this is on the European Commission's flagship, most high profile engineering project.

I nominally have "manager" in my job title rather than engineer, but its frankly meaningless. Do you want to know my working week this week? In work for 9 or 8.30 everyday, the earliest I have left was 19.00 and that was today. More usually 19.30 or 20.00. This is standard for every week. It will remain standard until Aug I found out yesterday. Launch should have been June, but just got delayed to Aug. I lose my summer. No ifs, no buts, no wiggle room. I lose my summer. Last month I had to renegotiate my contract due to German working law. I spent the first 2 weeks of this month working "on trust", i.e. the company failed to deliver my new contract so I was working "gratis" technically. Why? Because this is just how it is in the real world of what we do. In the middle of having to deliver a working satellite system I had to completely renegotiate my entire contract to the point where "hours", "days" or "time & materials" could not be mentioned and invent a new Work Package process. Because of a technicality of the German legal system. Aspect of which you are correct in presuming I know fk all about. As a result of this my monthly performance/delivery is now on the signoff radar at Board level of one of Europe's biggest companies. Oh deep joy.

My point here OP is that you still view this world and industry of engineering as some "pure" thing about the technology. Its not. Its a world of bks, political, commercial, customers and users who frankly will do nothing except attempt to make your life a living hell.

[johnfm]

DJRC said:

Gah will you lot with jack st of a clue about this knock it off?? This is his 1st thread where he is actually understanding reality! £35k is exactly where he is right now. In 2-3yrs he can look at a 40k job. Its a perfect base from which to move into the 500/day world. But you need that base in first and that is 5+ yrs industry experience.

Clue about what?

The evidence is that he has three interviews in quick succession, so clearly his skillset, even with limited experience, is in demand. Demand and supply of skills determines worth in the market.

£35k is just an arbitrary number. He is worth what he can negotiate - and any opening bid he gets will be 20% less than what they will be willing to pay.

There is a lot of psychology involved in any negotiation - and what I read from Otis's posts are that he should be grateful for virtually any offer because 'I am only 28 and still a grad...'.

Depressing to read a PhD engineering grad with such a low evaluation of his self worth in his own field - fair enough if he was just a B.Eng grad - but last time I looked, a PhD was no walk in the park.

Go for the other interviews - if you don't get offers, you know more about how in demand you really are. If you get offers, you have negotiation room - but go for the best job (for you) not just the most money.

Lastly, don't use remuneration if can't spell it!

[Siscar]

okgo said:

Makes sense then. Good luck.

The numbers really do make it clear as to why people take those degree's elsewhere in the job market, or go contracting as soon as possible. £10k in five years is shocking for a professional person. The same time frame in Law you are talking £40k at a decent firm I would have thought.

Law is flooded with graduates, just getting a job is a major achievement at the moment.