Being pushed out?

[illmonkey]

Without giving to much explicit details, I feel like my role is becoming redundant on purpose.

A lot of my responsibilities are being outsourced, and I'm being stopped from doing my job (not being given the tools I need), fobbed off with rubbish excuses.

I have made complaints to senior management and not much is changing. I also know there is a similar role in a parent company being advertised which legally has to be offered internally which hasn't. As well as other jobs that are within my scope not being advertised.

I'd like to know where I stand, of course it might end in redundancy, but due to the position they've put me in and not offering roles I could do, are they being naughty?

[StevieBee]

You need to start documenting every aspect of this. What they cannot do (which is what it appears like they are trying to do) is force you into a position whereby you can't do your job properly and then fire you - which will cost them less than redundancy - because you're not doing your job.

The more you have in writing, the better.

[don4l]

illmonkey said:

Without giving to much explicit details, I feel like my role is becoming redundant on purpose.

A lot of my responsibilities are being outsourced, and I'm being stopped from doing my job (not being given the tools I need), fobbed off with rubbish excuses.

I have made complaints to senior management and not much is changing. I also know there is a similar role in a parent company being advertised which legally has to be offered internally which hasn't. As well as other jobs that are within my scope not being advertised.

I'd like to know where I stand, of course it might end in redundancy, but due to the position they've put me in and not offering roles I could do, are they being naughty?

How much do you feel that you contribute to their bottom line?

How much profit do you make for them?

If you can honestly say that you are profitable for them, then they are probably in the wrong.

If you cannot say that you produce a profit, then you need a change of attitude.

I have no idea which one of these scenarios is closer to reality.

[The Beaver King]

I don't suppose there have been any incidents in the last 12 months? Something/anything that would give them cause to push you out?

In my experience, if you are good at your job and not an ahole then most companies will move you internally to try and keep you. I have seen people forced out before, through redundancy and sacking, but they were people who were crap at their job and/or made waves.

Have a honest think if there is any reason they might want you out.

If there is nothing, then maybe they are trying to cut overheads and have realised they can move your workload onto different departments/people.

[illmonkey]

My job consists of some basic admin stuff, which anyone could do after being told it a few times to doing month(s) of long project work. It's development and testing mainly. I would also keep an eye on related equipment in the office, which has been put into the cloud, and I can't access it. So I'm now down to just doing the basics and every so often doing the projects as and when, buy my boss is holding back on stuff I need to do it.

I say I feel like that is what is happening as I've not been my bosses favourite, as I've stood up to them when they've been wrong. I feel they are making these changes to get at me. It's a horrible work environment, and along with the above and not letting me have what I need to do the development work, I'm being made to do crap/nothing. I want to work and improve things, if there is work I get it done, so it's very off for me.

I can't say, apart from the horrible relationship with my boss, anything is off. Directors have pulled me aside and thanked me for my work and said I do a good job. I've complained about my boss previously and nothing gets done. It's all politics.

I do not directly make them money, so I don't get the golf days the sales fellas do, but I do maintain a system than is the main source of income for the business.

Stevie, if I got fired for not doing the job, because they'd not provided what I need, surely I can come back at them? It's their own fault I can't do it and to fire me would be wrongful dismissal no?

I'm fine going, but I want them to do it the correct way, in that, if they've pushed me into this, and deliberately not told me about jobs I could apply for to get out of my current position, they need to sort me out. Isn't that illegal, not offering jobs internally?

[SpeckledJim]

illmonkey said:

My job consists of some basic admin stuff, which anyone could do after being told it a few times to doing month(s) of long project work. It's development and testing mainly. I would also keep an eye on related equipment in the office, which has been put into the cloud, and I can't access it. So I'm now down to just doing the basics and every so often doing the projects as and when, buy my boss is holding back on stuff I need to do it.

I say I feel like that is what is happening as I've not been my bosses favourite, as I've stood up to them when they've been wrong. I feel they are making these changes to get at me. It's a horrible work environment, and along with the above and not letting me have what I need to do the development work, I'm being made to do crap/nothing. I want to work and improve things, if there is work I get it done, so it's very off for me.

I can't say, apart from the horrible relationship with my boss, anything is off. Directors have pulled me aside and thanked me for my work and said I do a good job. I've complained about my boss previously and nothing gets done. It's all politics.

I do not directly make them money, so I don't get the golf days the sales fellas do, but I do maintain a system than is the main source of income for the business.

Stevie, if I got fired for not doing the job, because they'd not provided what I need, surely I can come back at them? It's their own fault I can't do it and to fire me would be wrongful dismissal no?

I'm fine going, but I want them to do it the correct way, in that, if they've pushed me into this, and deliberately not told me about jobs I could apply for to get out of my current position, they need to sort me out. Isn't that illegal, not offering jobs internally?

That's a mad thing to do.

Your job-role is two-fold: to make your boss' life easier, and to make them look good. If you care too much to support them in (what you think are) bad decisions, you might be better-off as your own boss.

On the other hand, their decisions might be being made with the benefit of information you are not privy to, and they might be being made by people more capable than you (perhaps), in which case your card will be well-marked.

If I had an underling who was a pain (ignoring the objective rights and wrongs) I'd try to manage them out. Effecting change is already too difficult, and life is too short, to spend time doing battle with staff.

(I don't think they have to offer you any new positions - if they're advertising externally, they've probably already decided they don't want anyone internal.)

[illmonkey]

SpeckledJim said:

That's a mad thing to do.

Your job-role is two-fold: to make your boss' life easier, and to make them look good. If you care too much to support them in (what you think are) bad decisions, you might be better-off as your own boss.

On the other hand, their decisions might be being made with the benefit of information you are not privy to, and they might be being made by people more capable than you (perhaps), in which case your card will be well-marked.

If I had an underling who was a pain (ignoring the objective rights and wrongs) I'd try to manage them out. Effecting change is already too difficult, and life is too short, to spend time doing battle with staff.

(I don't think they have to offer you any new positions - if they're advertising externally, they've probably already decided they don't want anyone internal.)

Ok, it wasn't calling them out when they've been wrong (which is frequently), but the general crap I receive from them, even slightly aggressive behaviour, witnessed by HR. Many many people in this company are fed up of them, and don't want to deal with them, so it's not just me. Everyone I've told about their 'doings' agrees it's not on and should be handled by upper management.

I know that my boss would not allow me to have the job, so it's pointless, but I was more asking if they had to by law. There have been several jobs in my department that I've heard about but not been told about.

I'm just trying to get an idea of where I stand. I've put up with crap for years, been made to rush projects which should not be rushed etc, now I'm in a position where my work load is less and most of it could be done by someone earning less. I am also not being given other work I could do. My wedge is getting small.

[SpeckledJim]

illmonkey said:

SpeckledJim said:

That's a mad thing to do.

Your job-role is two-fold: to make your boss' life easier, and to make them look good. If you care too much to support them in (what you think are) bad decisions, you might be better-off as your own boss.

On the other hand, their decisions might be being made with the benefit of information you are not privy to, and they might be being made by people more capable than you (perhaps), in which case your card will be well-marked.

If I had an underling who was a pain (ignoring the objective rights and wrongs) I'd try to manage them out. Effecting change is already too difficult, and life is too short, to spend time doing battle with staff.

(I don't think they have to offer you any new positions - if they're advertising externally, they've probably already decided they don't want anyone internal.)

Ok, it wasn't calling them out when they've been wrong (which is frequently), but the general crap I receive from them, even slightly aggressive behaviour, witnessed by HR. Many many people in this company are fed up of them, and don't want to deal with them, so it's not just me. Everyone I've told about their 'doings' agrees it's not on and should be handled by upper management.

I know that my boss would not allow me to have the job, so it's pointless, but I was more asking if they had to by law. There have been several jobs in my department that I've heard about but not been told about.

I'm just trying to get an idea of where I stand. I've put up with crap for years, been made to rush projects which should not be rushed etc, now I'm in a position where my work load is less and most of it could be done by someone earning less. I am also not being given other work I could do. My wedge is getting small.

Sounds like you're being managed out. You have no right to be offered a different job. Most big companies are staffed by people who think their management are poor, and that their decisions are bad. Yet the economy, shaped by those decisions, rumbles on.

If you're in a poorly-managed position (or almost any position, for that matter) then you have to take it on the chin that you've sold your autonomy in return for your salary.

It's not your place to decide whether projects get rushed or not - that's management's call. You get paid whether the call was good or bad.

If it was me, I'd think it time to manage my exit on my own terms. Not wait to be made redundant.

[The Beaver King]

SpeckledJim said:

Sounds like you're being managed out. You have no right to be offered a different job. Most big companies are staffed by people who think their management are poor, and that their decisions are bad. Yet the economy, shaped by those decisions, rumbles on.

If you're in a poorly-managed position (or almost any position, for that matter) then you have to take it on the chin that you've sold your autonomy in return for your salary.

It's not your place to decide whether projects get rushed or not - that's management's call. You get paid whether the call was good or bad.

If it was me, I'd think it time to manage my exit on my own terms. Not wait to be made redundant.

Got to agree with this.

You can stand up to your boss if you think a decision is wrong, but you need to have a good working relationship with them. If you don't, it's seen as being disruptive and counterproductive.

I challenge my boss all the time, but I spent 2/3 years doing as I was told and we have a good relationship. By contrast, my boss does not get on well with his Director, which means any objections are veiwed negatively rather than constructively.

The office environment is a political playground and many have fallen foul of the invisible rules. I echo Jim above and would suggest a change with a new company. It's much easier to find a job while you are still in one.

[ChasW]

StevieBee said:

You need to start documenting every aspect of this. What they cannot do (which is what it appears like they are trying to do) is force you into a position whereby you can't do your job properly and then fire you - which will cost them less than redundancy - because you're not doing your job.

The more you have in writing, the better.

Stick with the original advice. Keep records ie copies of emails, notes of meetings however informal and any comments of the senior people. It's my experience that there is a high likelihood that, on the assumption that they are indeed edging you out, they will make some mistakes along the way which could strengthen your position when this reaches its natural conclusion.

My last firm paid on a sex discrimination case on an undeserving employee, ie someone who deliberately tried it on, simply because the HR department failed to send one email while the employee was on maternity leave. A simple error that put the employee in driving seat.

[daemon]

The Beaver King said:

SpeckledJim said:

Sounds like you're being managed out. You have no right to be offered a different job. Most big companies are staffed by people who think their management are poor, and that their decisions are bad. Yet the economy, shaped by those decisions, rumbles on.

If you're in a poorly-managed position (or almost any position, for that matter) then you have to take it on the chin that you've sold your autonomy in return for your salary.

It's not your place to decide whether projects get rushed or not - that's management's call. You get paid whether the call was good or bad.

If it was me, I'd think it time to manage my exit on my own terms. Not wait to be made redundant.

Got to agree with this.

You can stand up to your boss if you think a decision is wrong, but you need to have a good working relationship with them. If you don't, it's seen as being disruptive and counterproductive.

I challenge my boss all the time, but I spent 2/3 years doing as I was told and we have a good relationship. By contrast, my boss does not get on well with his Director, which means any objections are veiwed negatively rather than constructively.

The office environment is a political playground and many have fallen foul of the invisible rules. I echo Jim above and would suggest a change with a new company. It's much easier to find a job while you are still in one.

I would also agree with this. i was in a previous job role in which my manager made my life a merry hell for a year. I eventually threw the towel in and went for constructive dismissal. They paid me an out of court settlement, but TBH it wasnt worth all the pain i went through. If i'd to do it again, i'd have got another job and left them to it.

[daemon]

ChasW said:

StevieBee said:

You need to start documenting every aspect of this. What they cannot do (which is what it appears like they are trying to do) is force you into a position whereby you can't do your job properly and then fire you - which will cost them less than redundancy - because you're not doing your job.

The more you have in writing, the better.

Stick with the original advice. Keep records ie copies of emails, notes of meetings however informal and any comments of the senior people. It's my experience that there is a high likelihood that, on the assumption that they are indeed edging you out, they will make some mistakes along the way which could strengthen your position when this reaches its natural conclusion.

My last firm paid on a sex discrimination case on an undeserving employee, ie someone who deliberately tried it on, simply because the HR department failed to send one email while the employee was on maternity leave. A simple error that put the employee in driving seat.

Too much of a long shot IMHO - stay in the job, document every single thing that happens and "hope" they slip up so that you have a case against them, and then spend the next six months going through an employment tribunal where they drag your reputation through the mud, on the off chance you get a few pounds at the end of it?

Nah, sod that. Get another job.

[Sir Fergie]

The Beaver King said:

SpeckledJim said:

Sounds like you're being managed out. You have no right to be offered a different job. Most big companies are staffed by people who think their management are poor, and that their decisions are bad. Yet the economy, shaped by those decisions, rumbles on.

If you're in a poorly-managed position (or almost any position, for that matter) then you have to take it on the chin that you've sold your autonomy in return for your salary.

It's not your place to decide whether projects get rushed or not - that's management's call. You get paid whether the call was good or bad.

If it was me, I'd think it time to manage my exit on my own terms. Not wait to be made redundant.

Got to agree with this.

You can stand up to your boss if you think a decision is wrong, but you need to have a good working relationship with them. If you don't, it's seen as being disruptive and counterproductive.

I challenge my boss all the time, but I spent 2/3 years doing as I was told and we have a good relationship. By contrast, my boss does not get on well with his Director, which means any objections are veiwed negatively rather than constructively.

The office environment is a political playground and many have fallen foul of the invisible rules. I echo Jim above and would suggest a change with a new company. It's much easier to find a job while you are still in one.

While I completely agree on the OP managing his exit on his terms and starting again in a new job.

Nonetheless - the boss and management decision stuff is interesting.

It is indeed quite possibly true that many workers tend to think that their Managers/bosses/company Mgt is poor.

But I think its worth considering the fact - that sometimes the managers/bosses/company mgt - DO make poor decisions.

Quite often the frontline worker KNOWS EXACTLY what needs to be done to address issues - they know the issues.

But the senior manager up in his or her office* thinks everything is running quite nicely thank you - and won't listen.

If I was running a company - I would be seriously ed off if the manager tried to rush a job that needed its proper amount of time to complete - so that the work was done well for the company - and said manager refused to listen to the staff member who knew the job very well - and was expressing genuine and legitimate concerns about the impact of rushing the job.

Id be managing the manager out in that situation tbh - and he or she would definitely be on for a serious performance management/get your house in order talking to - if my good staff doing great work were having difficulties with the manager.

• yes PH managers - I know that there are very good managers who are on the ball - who get out of the office regularly - get stuck in - keep things motoring nicely - provide good leadership to their staff, listen - and know whats going on - and rectify issues.

Shame then ive also met too many of the other type

[Sir Bagalot]

You come across as someone who thought they were indispensable.

Huge mistake complaining about your boss.

Does look like you're on your way out.

You can either.....

Stay and fight. Document everything. When the time comes they will either make a good offer and you simply sign and run, or the offer is st and you fight them but will stop short as suing them for constructive dismissal is expensive.

Or you can get your arse into gear and find another job now.

The latter of the two carries far less stress.

[SpeckledJim]

Sir Fergie said:

While I completely agree on the OP managing his exit on his terms and starting again in a new job.

Nonetheless - the boss and management decision stuff is interesting.

It is indeed quite possibly true that many workers tend to think that their Managers/bosses/company Mgt is poor.

But I think its worth considering the fact - that sometimes the managers/bosses/company mgt - DO make poor decisions.

Quite often the frontline worker KNOWS EXACTLY what needs to be done to address issues - they know the issues.

But the senior manager up in his or her office* thinks everything is running quite nicely thank you - and won't listen.

If I was running a company - I would be seriously ed off if the manager tried to rush a job that needed its proper amount of time to complete - so that the work was done well for the company - and said manager refused to listen to the staff member who knew the job very well - and was expressing genuine and legitimate concerns about the impact of rushing the job.

Id be managing the manager out in that situation tbh - and he or she would definitely be on for a serious performance management/get your house in order talking to - if my good staff doing great work were having difficulties with the manager.

• yes PH managers - I know that there are very good managers who are on the ball - who get out of the office regularly - get stuck in - keep things motoring nicely - provide good leadership to their staff, listen - and know whats going on - and rectify issues.

Shame then ive also met too many of the other type

Of course some management decisions are awful.

But management aren't a different species - by and large they're just people who were good at the small stuff who were given a chance at the bigger stuff.

Lets not forget that everyone who isn't impressed at the performance of their boss has the chance to be their own boss and shown them how it should be done. How many people back themselves and take that opportunity? Not many.

Even with the £££m on offer if their opinion of their own opinion is actually right. Still not many.

How much criticism should you take from someone who refuses to try to do what you do, but better? Not much.

Edited by SpeckledJim on Friday 11th April 13:18

[Lotus Notes]

illmonkey said:

I'd like to know where I stand, of course it might end in redundancy, but due to the position they've put me in and not offering roles I could do, are they being naughty?

Rather than 'might end in redundancy'; You need to prepare for redundancy.

Whether there be rights or wrongs about challenging line management, they can't just strip you of responsibility, reapportion tasks and generally chip away at your morale..

Consulting an employment lawyer should be at the top of the list. Take control and stop being 'hard done by' as this comes across in your responses and this has never helped anybody.

[Sir Fergie]

SpeckledJim said:

Sir Fergie said:

While I completely agree on the OP managing his exit on his terms and starting again in a new job.

Nonetheless - the boss and management decision stuff is interesting.

It is indeed quite possibly true that many workers tend to think that their Managers/bosses/company Mgt is poor.

But I think its worth considering the fact - that sometimes the managers/bosses/company mgt - DO make poor decisions.

Quite often the frontline worker KNOWS EXACTLY what needs to be done to address issues - they know the issues.

But the senior manager up in his or her office* thinks everything is running quite nicely thank you - and won't listen.

If I was running a company - I would be seriously ed off if the manager tried to rush a job that needed its proper amount of time to complete - so that the work was done well for the company - and said manager refused to listen to the staff member who knew the job very well - and was expressing genuine and legitimate concerns about the impact of rushing the job.

Id be managing the manager out in that situation tbh - and he or she would definitely be on for a serious performance management/get your house in order talking to - if my good staff doing great work were having difficulties with the manager.

• yes PH managers - I know that there are very good managers who are on the ball - who get out of the office regularly - get stuck in - keep things motoring nicely - provide good leadership to their staff, listen - and know whats going on - and rectify issues.

Shame then ive also met too many of the other type

Of course some management decisions are awful.

But management aren't a different species - by and large they're just people who were good at the small stuff who were given a chance at the bigger stuff.

Lets not forget that everyone who isn't impressed at the performance of their boss has the chance to be their own boss and shown them how it should be done. How many people back themselves and take that opportunity? Not many.

Even with the £££m on offer if their opinion of their own opinion is actually right. Still not many.

How much criticism should you take from someone who refuses to try to do what you do, but better? Not much.

Edited by SpeckledJim on Friday 11th April 13:18

Those are all fair points

But heres the thing - a Nurse may not want to be an NHS manager - but shes still entitled to her viewpoint on her managers performance.

Normally she can keep that opinion to herself - indeed it may even be better to do it.

But suppose the management decisions in the NHS are directly impacting on her ability to do her job - ie looking after patients.

Shes surely entitled to raise the issues that are resulting from the Management decisions.

Or does she wait until something goes wrong and shes before NMC been question on HER practice - when some of the issues resulted from Management failures

[Martin4x4]

Sound like boss is a **** and is trying to edge you out, in my experience this is usually because you abilities are a threat to them.

Since you have a good relationship with the directors start taking your suggestions directly to them. Use the idle time productively and free open source tools to present simple proof of concept solutions, and present them as lost opportunties not problems.

Let it be revealled that the Boss is the obstacle to progress not you, that he "lack of vision" or whatever is your companies buzz phrases is.

You could even go direct to HR and apply for the job in the parent company and tell them why you are applying. Don't make the legal threat, but let HR realise the 'legal risk' themselves.

[ChasW]

daemon said:

ChasW said:

StevieBee said:

You need to start documenting every aspect of this. What they cannot do (which is what it appears like they are trying to do) is force you into a position whereby you can't do your job properly and then fire you - which will cost them less than redundancy - because you're not doing your job.

The more you have in writing, the better.

Stick with the original advice. Keep records ie copies of emails, notes of meetings however informal and any comments of the senior people. It's my experience that there is a high likelihood that, on the assumption that they are indeed edging you out, they will make some mistakes along the way which could strengthen your position when this reaches its natural conclusion.

My last firm paid on a sex discrimination case on an undeserving employee, ie someone who deliberately tried it on, simply because the HR department failed to send one email while the employee was on maternity leave. A simple error that put the employee in driving seat.

Too much of a long shot IMHO - stay in the job, document every single thing that happens and "hope" they slip up so that you have a case against them, and then spend the next six months going through an employment tribunal where they drag your reputation through the mud, on the off chance you get a few pounds at the end of it?

Nah, sod that. Get another job.

And fail to cover your backside if things don't work out. Very foolhardy!

[daemon]

ChasW said:

daemon said:

ChasW said:

StevieBee said:

You need to start documenting every aspect of this. What they cannot do (which is what it appears like they are trying to do) is force you into a position whereby you can't do your job properly and then fire you - which will cost them less than redundancy - because you're not doing your job.

The more you have in writing, the better.

Stick with the original advice. Keep records ie copies of emails, notes of meetings however informal and any comments of the senior people. It's my experience that there is a high likelihood that, on the assumption that they are indeed edging you out, they will make some mistakes along the way which could strengthen your position when this reaches its natural conclusion.

My last firm paid on a sex discrimination case on an undeserving employee, ie someone who deliberately tried it on, simply because the HR department failed to send one email while the employee was on maternity leave. A simple error that put the employee in driving seat.

Too much of a long shot IMHO - stay in the job, document every single thing that happens and "hope" they slip up so that you have a case against them, and then spend the next six months going through an employment tribunal where they drag your reputation through the mud, on the off chance you get a few pounds at the end of it?

Nah, sod that. Get another job.

And fail to cover your backside if things don't work out. Very foolhardy!

Certainly cover your ass, but i wouldnt be doing so as my primary strategy as you seemed to be implying

Edited by daemon on Friday 11th April 14:57