Just a little angry today.

Author
Discussion

jammy_basturd

29,776 posts

211 months

Wednesday 2nd July 2014
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
You are not an employee.

You are a consultant.

They hired you so that you can help them and give them advice - not so that they can boss you about.
skahigh said:
A contractor is there to meet the clients needs in a suitable way, not to do everything the client says and not necessarily the way the client wants.
A contractor is there to do what is stipulated in the contract.

Pit Pony

Original Poster:

8,268 posts

120 months

Wednesday 2nd July 2014
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
You are not an employee.

You are a consultant.

They hired you so that you can help them and give them advice - not so that they can boss you about.
On an IR35 related point, how do I respond to a generic email from the EH&S department, demanding that all employees, complete DSE training, and self assessment.

"Because we as the employer have a duty of care, and you as an employee are obligated by health and safety legislation to under take H&S training as requested"

Last week there was an email about "Ethics Training", but there is a problem with getting all contractors a special corporate log in before the global deadline, so it's been deferred.

I'm yet to find a hiring manager, or global organisation that actually understands what IR35 means, and I find pointing it out to them just pisses them off, or confuses them. (Including the MOD which is part of the civil service, so should really understand)

I think if any hiring manager had done any ethics training, and they were pointed to the HMRC website, they'd be duty bound to end almost all contracts, because whilst the contract is clearly written by a IR35 Legal Expert, the HR and EH&S people and hiring managers, usually treat them like they'd treat employees.

And as far as I can tell, most contractors don't understand, and most don't want to rock the boat.

bigandclever

13,750 posts

237 months

Wednesday 2nd July 2014
quotequote all
Generic emails just get deleted. If a client wants (requires) a representative of MyCo to go through whatever hoops are required,to tick whatever boxes they like, that can probably be arranged. Easy. Act like a business, then get treated like a business. Act like an expensive bum-on-seat pseudo-permy, then get treated as such smile Clients shouldn't need to know the ins and outs of tax law.

Sir Fergie

795 posts

134 months

Friday 4th July 2014
quotequote all
0000 said:
You should take constructive criticism even if you're hitting targets.

Whether you act on it or not, as a contractor, I'd say should be independent. If you're hitting targets and it's a problem for them if you don't do things prescriptively, I suspect it's not a customer to work for any longer than absolutely necessary.
I can understand why youd take the criticism on board - listen to it.

But what happens if you think the criticism is unjustified or is based on a flawed or inaccurate view of the situation.

bga

8,134 posts

250 months

Saturday 5th July 2014
quotequote all
Pit Pony said:
On an IR35 related point, how do I respond to a generic email from the EH&S department, demanding that all employees, complete DSE training, and self assessment.
Just ask if it applies to externals too. We get this all the time, some companies require it for consultants as well as perms. For about 50% of our clients it is mandatory that we do some training. DSE is usually one if those as they have a duty of care to everyone working on their behalf.

Pit Pony

Original Poster:

8,268 posts

120 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
quotequote all
On the DSE training point, my Agency were incensed that the client had sent a generic EMPLOYEE, EMPLOYER email, and I have now been sent a request for an appropriate representative from my Ltd Company to undertake the DSE training and do assessments for all employees working on that client's IT equipment.

I'm thinking that my kids are off for the summer, so one of them can do the training on line and come in for an hour and do the assessment. Do I need to put them on the books ?

HenryJM

6,315 posts

128 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
quotequote all
Pit Pony said:
On the DSE training point, my Agency were incensed that the client had sent a generic EMPLOYEE, EMPLOYER email, and I have now been sent a request for an appropriate representative from my Ltd Company to undertake the DSE training and do assessments for all employees working on that client's IT equipment.

I'm thinking that my kids are off for the summer, so one of them can do the training on line and come in for an hour and do the assessment. Do I need to put them on the books ?
Incensed? They need to get out more. smile

Is it to an email address that is yourname@theircompany.com? In which case it's probably just been sent to everyone. If it is I'd be more concerned that you have one of their email addresses, better to use your own if you don't want to look like an employee.

Pit Pony

Original Poster:

8,268 posts

120 months

Sunday 6th July 2014
quotequote all
HenryJM said:
Pit Pony said:
On the DSE training point, my Agency were incensed that the client had sent a generic EMPLOYEE, EMPLOYER email, and I have now been sent a request for an appropriate representative from my Ltd Company to undertake the DSE training and do assessments for all employees working on that client's IT equipment.

I'm thinking that my kids are off for the summer, so one of them can do the training on line and come in for an hour and do the assessment. Do I need to put them on the books ?
Incensed? They need to get out more. smile

Is it to an email address that is yourname@theircompany.com? In which case it's probably just been sent to everyone. If it is I'd be more concerned that you have one of their email addresses, better to use your own if you don't want to look like an employee.
I say incensed, but more like "Pragmatic" ie they could see my point, and wanted to do as little as possible to resolve it whilst keeping the client happy on my behalf.



NorthDave

2,355 posts

231 months

Tuesday 8th July 2014
quotequote all
Pit Pony said:
I'm yet to find a hiring manager, or global organisation that actually understands what IR35 means, and I find pointing it out to them just pisses them off, or confuses them. (Including the MOD which is part of the civil service, so should really understand)
I'm not sure they care. When I found out that a long term sub contractor of mine was doing something which greatly benefited him (from an IR35 point of view) but was to the detriment to my company I gave him a formal warning.

In my experience if you come in and start causing problems, for me, because of your tax setup then you'll be out the door quickly.

When I was a contractor you would tell the people who should have been an employee - they went out of their way to act like a business. The rest just got on with the job.

ferrariF50lover

1,834 posts

225 months

Tuesday 8th July 2014
quotequote all
I'm guessing you know more than the bloke who's bossing you about. Could you not make one attempt at being all matey and explaining why you're doing what you're doing and how you're doing it. If he then keeps going at you, accept that he's an idiot and just ignore him. Eventually he'll go up the chain to his boss who, unless you're extremely unlucky, won't be an idiot and will understand when you explain the situation.

Simon.

Ali_D

1,115 posts

283 months

Tuesday 8th July 2014
quotequote all
NorthDave said:
I'm not sure they care. When I found out that a long term sub contractor of mine was doing something which greatly benefited him (from an IR35 point of view) but was to the detriment to my company I gave him a formal warning.

In my experience if you come in and start causing problems, for me, because of your tax setup then you'll be out the door quickly.

When I was a contractor you would tell the people who should have been an employee - they went out of their way to act like a business. The rest just got on with the job.
A 'formal warning' is what you give to an employee, you can instruct a supplier to change their processes or you can terminate the contract but you can't give them a formal warning.

hidetheelephants

23,772 posts

192 months

Tuesday 8th July 2014
quotequote all
Pit Pony said:
I'm not seeing why it matters. The problem I have is that I don't have a great memory, can only work on one thing at a time, and am very focused on the plan that was originally agreed. So if I'm asked about something that isn't on my current radar, I get a bit flustered, and it was all a bit "What about this?, I wanted this, Why isn't this done? I asked you this yesterday, Well that isn't good enough, this isn't the way it should be done. I'm really not happy, you should have done this"
If what was originally agreed is minuted, then ask them to schedule a meeting to revise your objectives and that can also be minuted; if it's not on paper it didn't happen.

bigandclever

13,750 posts

237 months

Tuesday 8th July 2014
quotequote all
NorthDave said:
When I found out that a long term sub contractor of mine was doing something which greatly benefited him (from an IR35 point of view) but was to the detriment to my company I gave him a formal warning.
Curious as to what he was doing, I can't think of anything that would be *that* bad. Go on, spill the beans smile

Pit Pony

Original Poster:

8,268 posts

120 months

Tuesday 8th July 2014
quotequote all
ferrariF50lover said:
I'm guessing you know more than the bloke who's bossing you about. Could you not make one attempt at being all matey and explaining why you're doing what you're doing and how you're doing it. If he then keeps going at you, accept that he's an idiot and just ignore him. Eventually he'll go up the chain to his boss who, unless you're extremely unlucky, won't be an idiot and will understand when you explain the situation.

Simon.
Yes, well I have just today had the opportunity to informally explain the successes we are having to her boss, and got into a discussion about how he can show his seniors this, and tomorrow I'll send him a link to a chart which gives him exactly what he needs. (which took me no time at all once I remembered how to use the =Sum(IF formula that I perfected in a previous contract) .

elanfan

5,516 posts

226 months

Wednesday 9th July 2014
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Do you reckon he'll kick her ass when he sees for himself what you are achieving? Doubtless she has been bad mouthing you and this will show her up for what she is??

NorthDave

2,355 posts

231 months

Wednesday 9th July 2014
quotequote all
bigandclever said:
Curious as to what he was doing, I can't think of anything that would be *that* bad. Go on, spill the beans smile
He was basically trying to mop up the smaller jobs we weren't interested in and doing them through his own company.

Given this guy was on commission plus a retainer and we introduced clients for him to sell to I thought it more than a bit off. Basically a massive trust issue.

bigandclever

13,750 posts

237 months

Wednesday 9th July 2014
quotequote all
NorthDave said:
He was basically trying to mop up the smaller jobs we weren't interested in and doing them through his own company.

Given this guy was on commission plus a retainer and we introduced clients for him to sell to I thought it more than a bit off. Basically a massive trust issue.
Still struggling to see what that's got to do with IR35.

jammy_basturd

29,776 posts

211 months

Wednesday 9th July 2014
quotequote all
NorthDave said:
He was basically trying to mop up the smaller jobs we weren't interested in and doing them through his own company.

Given this guy was on commission plus a retainer and we introduced clients for him to sell to I thought it more than a bit off. Basically a massive trust issue.
In your position I'd expect the common courtesy for him to double check with you to ask whether it was OK to do so (especially as it sounds like you're a major client of his so I'd expect him not to rock the boat).

But at the end of the day, if these are jobs you're not interested in, is it really a big deal?

Pit Pony

Original Poster:

8,268 posts

120 months

Wednesday 9th July 2014
quotequote all
bigandclever said:
NorthDave said:
He was basically trying to mop up the smaller jobs we weren't interested in and doing them through his own company.

Given this guy was on commission plus a retainer and we introduced clients for him to sell to I thought it more than a bit off. Basically a massive trust issue.
Still struggling to see what that's got to do with IR35.
I assume it's a mistaken belief that if you can show more than one income stream, you have a better case. It's a case of not reading the HMRC guidelines, where they clearly state, that each AND every contract can be examined and even if you are servicing multiple contracts with multiple customers, you might still be deemed to be an employee, in one of them.

Same misconception with time. You can be deemed a disguised employee from day 1, or you could be contracting at the same company for years and not be.

berlintaxi

8,535 posts

172 months

Thursday 10th July 2014
quotequote all
NorthDave said:
bigandclever said:
Curious as to what he was doing, I can't think of anything that would be *that* bad. Go on, spill the beans smile
He was basically trying to mop up the smaller jobs we weren't interested in and doing them through his own company.

Given this guy was on commission plus a retainer and we introduced clients for him to sell to I thought it more than a bit off. Basically a massive trust issue.
So self employed guy tries to generate extra income through taking on work you ain't interested in and he's wrong, sounds like you want to have your cake and eat his as well, as an aside how do you give a formal warning to someone who doesn't work for you?