Required to provide fingerprints.
Discussion
bga said:
SpeedDontMatter said:
After a considerable amount of thought, I've decided to start looking for another job. To say I'm disappointed is an understatement, but to provide my fingerprints would be stepping beyond my personal boundaries and I have to draw a line unfortunately.
Let me pose a question, if everyone simply complies it doesn't end there. Perhaps a DNA attendance monitor is next, or how about your very own microchip tracker? They're on the way.
Your employers have your DoB, NINO, address, bank details, references/employment history and most likely passport number. You were happy to provide them information that is much, much more likely to be used maliciously or in a fraudulent manner (and even then the likelihood is very low). Accessing and exploiting this information is much easier than accessing biometric data stored in pretty much any commercial product. Let me pose a question, if everyone simply complies it doesn't end there. Perhaps a DNA attendance monitor is next, or how about your very own microchip tracker? They're on the way.
You have provided personal info that is more likely to be misused but don't like the idea of another piece of personal data being used to authenticate yourself in a potentially more reliable way than a smart card or similar.
Using DNA or personal microchips is a bit beyond my sphere of expertise in the security world but I am not losing sleep over having to provide either as it is unlikely that I will come across a scenario where that is a proportionate ethos of authentication.
OP - you need to read this to get some perspective. You're are walking away from a job without thinking things through. Not a good start to a post-university career. You have already given the company far more dangerous info than your fingerprint and they'll still have it when you leave.
FunkyGibbon said:
I've deployed biometric recognition systems that use finger scan technology, I very much doubt they are capturing an image of your fingerprint.
They usually work by scanning the topography of your finger to collect data from a number (10, 20, 30 etc) points across the finger landscape. These data points are then munged into a large (512, 1024 bit) string; based on your landscape, a system encryption key and some other variables like date/time etc., that effectively becomes your key. The key is unique to you and that instance of the biometric system. Therefore in the event of the biometric data being stolen and copied to another instance of the same biometric kit, the data is useless.
In the systems I've used the key cannot be reverse engineered to generate your fingerprint to upload into a 3D printer. (It may well be technically possible I guess with enough computing power, will and time, but you'd likely be dead before that has been done.)
So, I wouldn't worry about it.
While I appreciate the way the data is used internally may not allow copying, someone who perhaps burgled your home could get access to finger print images and copy that data sufficiently to pass the checks on a corporate system for example.They usually work by scanning the topography of your finger to collect data from a number (10, 20, 30 etc) points across the finger landscape. These data points are then munged into a large (512, 1024 bit) string; based on your landscape, a system encryption key and some other variables like date/time etc., that effectively becomes your key. The key is unique to you and that instance of the biometric system. Therefore in the event of the biometric data being stolen and copied to another instance of the same biometric kit, the data is useless.
In the systems I've used the key cannot be reverse engineered to generate your fingerprint to upload into a 3D printer. (It may well be technically possible I guess with enough computing power, will and time, but you'd likely be dead before that has been done.)
So, I wouldn't worry about it.
In 10 years time such things may be pretty trivial.
Cripes even DNA may become quite useful in the next generation.
The above systems used to watch and listen to you though, so the computer can detect you how other humans would, would be much better. Looking at a load of characteristics and generating a key file that describes them all.
It'd be almost impossible to pretend to be someone else.
This appears to be where systems are going and I think they'll be here in the next 20yrs if not sooner.
SpeedDontMatter said:
After a considerable amount of thought, I've decided to start looking for another job. To say I'm disappointed is an understatement, but to provide my fingerprints would be stepping beyond my personal boundaries and I have to draw a line unfortunately.
Let me pose a question, if everyone simply complies it doesn't end there. Perhaps a DNA attendance monitor is next, or how about your very own microchip tracker? They're on the way.
You're going to seriously limit your employment opportunities.Let me pose a question, if everyone simply complies it doesn't end there. Perhaps a DNA attendance monitor is next, or how about your very own microchip tracker? They're on the way.
From personal experience, companies using biometrics for attendance recording in the uk include: the world's largest soft drink manufacturer, the world's second largest privately owned business (having uk interests from metals trading to making toilet rolls), at least 1 major automotive manufacturer.
Those are just in my direct experience and I've probably just not noticed countless others when I've visited their offices/sites.
When you consider that you can buy a biometric attendance system, including software, for under £500 it's hardly surprising that they're used extensively.
They help eliminate overtime fraud, where people might clock each other in/out when working out of hours, as well as removing the need for people to carry fobs/swipe cards, or other easily lost identity gadgets.
If its due to worrying about ID theft then as others are saying, they hold far more data on you that could cause problems and other than using your iphone behind your back or implicating you in a crime (pretty far fetched) not sure what fingerprints alone could achieve.
As for the old encounter with the police, I really cannot see that they would be checking these with any sort of police database and doubt they even can. Many jobs today require criminal checks which can include spent convictions but as far as I know don't include cautions past 10 years though one may be asked to declare this.
On either part worth finding out the full story and how this information is secured but worth putting into context.
As for the old encounter with the police, I really cannot see that they would be checking these with any sort of police database and doubt they even can. Many jobs today require criminal checks which can include spent convictions but as far as I know don't include cautions past 10 years though one may be asked to declare this.
On either part worth finding out the full story and how this information is secured but worth putting into context.
Many many banks are also looking at or have already implemented biometric speech authentication for telephone banking. This is the active enrollment type. Passive enrollment is coming and background biometric fraud detection is already active in many US banks and UK banks are trialing it.
SpeedDontMatter said:
After a considerable amount of thought, I've decided to start looking for another job. To say I'm disappointed is an understatement, but to provide my fingerprints would be stepping beyond my personal boundaries and I have to draw a line unfortunately.
Let me pose a question, if everyone simply complies it doesn't end there. Perhaps a DNA attendance monitor is next, or how about your very own microchip tracker? They're on the way.
Oh dear. I'd like to wish you luck, but I'm worried about what you might infer from that.Let me pose a question, if everyone simply complies it doesn't end there. Perhaps a DNA attendance monitor is next, or how about your very own microchip tracker? They're on the way.
SpeedDontMatter said:
Additionally I may have provided my prints with the local police in my youth - which adds to my reluctance, however it is against my ethic to comply with such systems in any case.
What does this mean ? Did you provide your prints to the police, or not ? Had you done something wrong ? Were you convicted of any crime ? It isn't clear. Best of luck with whatever you decide.SpeedDontMatter said:
After a considerable amount of thought, I've decided to start looking for another job. To say I'm disappointed is an understatement, but to provide my fingerprints would be stepping beyond my personal boundaries and I have to draw a line unfortunately.
Let me pose a question, if everyone simply complies it doesn't end there. Perhaps a DNA attendance monitor is next, or how about your very own microchip tracker? They're on the way.
You're not giving your fingerprints though, you're allowing a digital profile generated from your fingerprints to be recorded. Which can only be used in the system in which its recorded. Let me pose a question, if everyone simply complies it doesn't end there. Perhaps a DNA attendance monitor is next, or how about your very own microchip tracker? They're on the way.
If they were asking you to provide a gel copy of your fingers then fair enough.
This is a silly decision based on the worst kind of conspiracy theory - you're giving up a good job based on paranoia.
I'm sure someone can supply you with a foil hat to stop the government spying on you with rays from space!
Un-fricking-believable.
Sorry OP but seriously get a bloody grip.
I supplied my dabs plus other secret information only known to me more than twenty years ago.
If you're worried about a past misdemeanour how would you react because the request was due to capture and / or kidnap risk.
Ffs reach down the front of your pants and check for presence of testicles. If absent grow a funking pair.
Sorry if that's felt to be a tad harsh but you don't know half of it.
Sorry OP but seriously get a bloody grip.
I supplied my dabs plus other secret information only known to me more than twenty years ago.
If you're worried about a past misdemeanour how would you react because the request was due to capture and / or kidnap risk.
Ffs reach down the front of your pants and check for presence of testicles. If absent grow a funking pair.
Sorry if that's felt to be a tad harsh but you don't know half of it.
I can relate to the OP, I'm no fan of a tinfoil hat, but as every year passes it seems we're asked for more and more things to identify ourselves under all sorts of reasons.
Giving up an otherwise good job over it is a bit rash I'd say - as for the whole misspent youth thing - I wouldn't worry about that, if your employer decided to send everyone's dabs over to Scotland Yard for examination they'd be in more bother than someone who once had their prints taken as a lad - you're not alone there.
Personally, I'd equally as uneasy - it seems another step towards a world where no one is anonymous anymore - but I'd still do it, begrudgingly.
Giving up an otherwise good job over it is a bit rash I'd say - as for the whole misspent youth thing - I wouldn't worry about that, if your employer decided to send everyone's dabs over to Scotland Yard for examination they'd be in more bother than someone who once had their prints taken as a lad - you're not alone there.
Personally, I'd equally as uneasy - it seems another step towards a world where no one is anonymous anymore - but I'd still do it, begrudgingly.
SpeedDontMatter said:
pilbeam_mp62 said:
Did you provide your prints to the police, or not ? Had you done something wrong ? Were you convicted of any crime ?
I had somewhat of a misspent youth. Could you explain for us thickies exactly how you think this has any relevance to your current situation? I can't see a link at all.
Also, could you make your mind up why exactly you don't wish to comply with a fair-sounding request from an employer and let us know? Is it because of your criminal past or your 'ethic'? (whatever you mean by that)
I hate to say this, but if your planning on working in any sort of sensitive industry then your going to need to start giving up this sort of stuff.
When I started in my current role i was required to go through a CRB, financial probity, social media and identity verification process. All of which would of revealed any past misdemeanors without supply of my finger prints. Its the way of the world.
When I started in my current role i was required to go through a CRB, financial probity, social media and identity verification process. All of which would of revealed any past misdemeanors without supply of my finger prints. Its the way of the world.
This is absurd. You're worried that by giving your fingerprints over, they will somehow uncover your shady past and presumably fire you? So you're solution is to leave your first proper job? Amazing.
A) they won't/can't check your fingerprints against the police records without your permission.
B) They won't anyway.
C) EVEN if they did, the worst that happens is you lose your job which is what you're doing pre-emptively anyway.
The only way this thread makes sense is if your shady past was actually something much more sinister. NB I am NOT accusing you of being a kiddy fiddler.
A) they won't/can't check your fingerprints against the police records without your permission.
B) They won't anyway.
C) EVEN if they did, the worst that happens is you lose your job which is what you're doing pre-emptively anyway.
The only way this thread makes sense is if your shady past was actually something much more sinister. NB I am NOT accusing you of being a kiddy fiddler.
SpeedDontMatter said:
If anyone can provide an independent parties expert testimony on how these things work - apart from the manufacturers claims on their own websites - then that would certainly have some credibility. But until then nobody other than the manufacturers know what data is stored and the security there of.
I'm not connected to any manufacture or reseller, I just have over 7 years experience of managing implementation of these systems and understand how these work from an IT security point of view.Just a thought, I presume you'd be happy with a swipe card approach?
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